How Rand can defeat the Dark One for all time

[DocBean]

I'm new here, and haven't finished Gathering Storm yet, so please don't spoil me.

 

Maybe people have posted this before, but I just thought of something while reading Gathering Storm.

 

 

Let's assume Rand wants to kill the Dark One forever.

Let's also assume that's not possible. So what do you do?

 

Plan 1: You turn his Champion (Ishy / Moridin) against him.

all Rand has to do to insure success forever is to win Ishy back to the light.

He said in book 1 that the Creator and Dark One created Champions that will fight forever.

what if they decide to stop fighting?

 

Plan 2: You merge with Ishy and the champions live happily ever after.

 

Rand can't balefire Moridin, which would probably tear him out too, since they seem to be linked.

Then the Dark One pops right back out if Rands thread moves back to before he gets sealed up.

 

Rand could merge with Moridin, but that's got Yin Yang problems all over it. (Crazy Moridin trying to kill everything / Crazy Rand trying to save everything)

If they merge they need to realize that you can't save the Wheel, and can't destroy the Wheel. You just have to let it spin.

 

So before Rand can merge with Moridin, he has to come to an understanding with him. No Wheel Smashing is good for both of us.

Let's work together, and the Dark One can never destroy the Wheel like Ishy seems to assume he will at some point. (this seems to be the only thing that's keeping him on the side of the dark)

 

I'm actually starting to think that Moridin wants to switch sides.

Or, he's realized he'll never turn Rand, so he's going to have Rand balefire the hell out of the pattern and destroy the wheel himself before the Dark One can.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Interesting idea.  I do think the plotline is going for the notion that the DO needs to turn Rand in order to break free and win the fight, so it would make sense that turning Ishamael is the way to have him lose the fight (and die, I guess).

 

It does seem that Ishamael is getting sick and tired of the endless war and wants to destroy reality to make it stop, so it might be possible to convince him to just call a mulligan on the whole Evil Overlord thing and pursue an interest in gardening or something.

 

[ptolemy99]

What if the way to rebuild the DOs prison is to completely destroy the prison and make a new one, with a new DO.  

 

What if Ishy is set to become the new DO with a prison built around him while Rand makes toaster cakes of the old DO?

 

Just a crazy thought.

 

 

Edit: No TGS spoilers on this board.

[Agitel]

The Shadow's "champion" isn't really a mandated to happen every time type of thing. Oh, I'm sure the DO chooses a champion, but it's not always Ishy, nor is it a given that Ishy would even be in existence at this time every cycle, or that he would turn to the Shadow.

 

As for needing Rand, perhaps, but I also think with enough time he could manage it, too. As for why Ishy's not attacking Rand, he tried it three times and failed. The Forsaken (or at least, Ishy and the Dark One) realized that they can't really compete with Rand's ta'veren nature close up, so they chose other tactics. Rather than directly confront the Wheel's influence in regards to Rand, they're going to work within it.

[NoGuessing]

I'm gonna let you finish, but Rand's plan to kill the Dark One is the best of all time. ALL TIME.

[Mr Ares]

Let's also assume that's not possible. So what do you do?

Give up and go home.

 

Plan 1: You turn his Champion (Ishy / Moridin) against him.

all Rand has to do to insure success forever is to win Ishy back to the light. He said in book 1 that the Creator and Dark One created Champions that will fight forever. what if they decide to stop fighting?

Then they stop fighting in this life and do fight in the next. Victory is fleeting.

 

Plan 2: You merge with Ishy and the champions live happily ever after.

What I loved most about this board was the lack of Moridin/Rand shipping. You, sir, have ruined it forever.

[Dagon Thyne]

I haven't even started TGS yet...so I have no idea what I'm talking about realy.....but...from what I have read, I think that defeating the DO is gonna rely more heavily on Lews Therin than Rand.  I do not think Rand is actually Lews Therin reincarnated.  I think that each Chosen One is a mixture of a new soul and the soul of the last chosen one in the line.  This would explain why Lews Therin seems to be completely seperate from Rand and able to think, speak, and even channel for himself using Rand's body.  I think that Fulfilling the prophecies will gradualy make Rand stronger and stronger in the power until he is able to face the darkone on equal ground.  Then Rand and the DO will kill each other in battle.  But it won't be Rand's soul that passes on, but Lews Therin's, leaving Rand alive.  Thus Rand will have kept his promise to Lews Therin of letting him die at the Last Battle.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

I think even if you had read TGS you still wouldn't know what you were talking about. After all, we've had eleven books and RJ's interviews to hammer home the Rand-is-LTT-reborn angle.

[Agitel]

I think even if you had read TGS you still wouldn't know what you were talking about. After all, we've had eleven books and RJ's interviews to hammer home the Rand-is-LTT-reborn angle.

 

And for further confirmation, Jordan has confirmed that souls can't be merged. Souls are distinct and separate and don't mix together.

 

LTT is a separate voice in Rand's head because Rand is mentally unstable.

 

I don't see what's so difficult to accept about that.

 

That's one of the things about insanity, you hear a voice and believe it to be real.

 

It just doesn't help that Rand's allotted his LTT memories to that personality, but it makes sense, given the concurrence of the re-emergence of memories and his progression down the path of insanity.

[DocBean]

And for further confirmation, Jordan has confirmed that souls can't be merged. Souls are distinct and separate and don't mix together.

LTT is a separate voice in Rand's head because Rand is mentally unstable.

I don't see what's so difficult to accept about that.

That's one of the things about insanity, you hear a voice and believe it to be real.

It just doesn't help that Rand's allotted his LTT memories to that personality, but it makes sense, given the concurrence of the re-emergence of memories and his progression down the path of insanity.

 

Moridin's and Rand's Souls don't have to merge.

but what if their bodies do? You'll have the same inner turmoil that Rand has with Lews, but on a greater scale.

We've seen merging already happen with Slayer, so there is a precedent.

 

However, with Luc and Isam, it seems that they have both become of one mindset, and both are quite evil.

Rand would need to merge with Moridin, but must make sure they can coexist.

 

 

 

 

[Lacanos]

The Shadow's "champion" isn't really a mandated to happen every time type of thing. Oh, I'm sure the DO chooses a champion, but it's not always Ishy, nor is it a given that Ishy would even be in existence at this time every cycle, or that he would turn to the Shadow.

 

As for needing Rand, perhaps, but I also think with enough time he could manage it, too. As for why Ishy's not attacking Rand, he tried it three times and failed. The Forsaken (or at least, Ishy and the Dark One) realized that they can't really compete with Rand's ta'veren nature close up, so they chose other tactics. Rather than directly confront the Wheel's influence in regards to Rand, they're going to work within it.

Prove it. Prove that the Shadow doesn't consistently use the same champion.

[Tom Sawyer]

I think he does always use the same champion.  Ishamael was talking about how the fight had always been between him and Rand.  They both keep popping back in to scrap with each other.

[Agitel]

I think he does always use the same champion.  Ishamael was talking about how the fight had always been between him and Rand.  They both keep popping back in to scrap with each other.

 

"You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c’mon!"

 

-Robert Jordan

 

There's no reason to trust Ishamael here. The man's half mad, and he seems to believe he IS the Dark One, which would explain the idea of why he says it's him that LTT always faces. On top of that, use of the TP tends to cause insanity, along with a burning sensation in the eyes and throat.

 

The Shadow's "champion" isn't really a mandated to happen every time type of thing. Oh, I'm sure the DO chooses a champion, but it's not always Ishy, nor is it a given that Ishy would even be in existence at this time every cycle, or that he would turn to the Shadow.

 

As for needing Rand, perhaps, but I also think with enough time he could manage it, too. As for why Ishy's not attacking Rand, he tried it three times and failed. The Forsaken (or at least, Ishy and the Dark One) realized that they can't really compete with Rand's ta'veren nature close up, so they chose other tactics. Rather than directly confront the Wheel's influence in regards to Rand, they're going to work within it.

Prove it. Prove that the Shadow doesn't consistently use the same champion.

 

The Dark One can't pluck souls and put them in real life, only the Wheel can do that. We know this because the Dark One can't recover balefired souls, he only has a brief window from which he can recover their soul after their immediate death. Besides that small window, he can't make a soul reborn. So unless you're suggesting that the Wheel is weaving someone out with the INTENTION of destroying itself . . .

 

You have absolutely nothing to suggest that Ishamael is consistently reborn as the Shadow's champion.

 

 

[Lacanos]

I think he does always use the same champion.  Ishamael was talking about how the fight had always been between him and Rand.  They both keep popping back in to scrap with each other.

 

"You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c’mon!"

 

-Robert Jordan

 

There's no reason to trust Ishamael here. The man's half mad, and he seems to believe he IS the Dark One, which would explain the idea of why he says it's him that LTT always faces. On top of that, use of the TP tends to cause insanity, along with a burning sensation in the eyes and throat.

 

The Shadow's "champion" isn't really a mandated to happen every time type of thing. Oh, I'm sure the DO chooses a champion, but it's not always Ishy, nor is it a given that Ishy would even be in existence at this time every cycle, or that he would turn to the Shadow.

 

As for needing Rand, perhaps, but I also think with enough time he could manage it, too. As for why Ishy's not attacking Rand, he tried it three times and failed. The Forsaken (or at least, Ishy and the Dark One) realized that they can't really compete with Rand's ta'veren nature close up, so they chose other tactics. Rather than directly confront the Wheel's influence in regards to Rand, they're going to work within it.

Prove it. Prove that the Shadow doesn't consistently use the same champion.

 

The Dark One can't pluck souls and put them in real life, only the Wheel can do that. We know this because the Dark One can't recover balefired souls, he only has a brief window from which he can recover their soul after their immediate death. Besides that small window, he can't make a soul reborn. So unless you're suggesting that the Wheel is weaving someone out with the INTENTION of destroying itself . . .

 

You have absolutely nothing to suggest that Ishamael is consistently reborn as the Shadow's champion.

 

 

I have Ishamael's word. That's a good start, unless you can PROVE he's wrong.

The wheel may be influenced by the DO, he may have a special link with Morimael, who knows. Nevertheless, I don't think you can dismiss it as out of hand.

[Agitel]

"You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c'mon!" - Robert Jordan, answering a question about Ishamael and Rand's conversation in their final confrontation of TGH.

 

The man essentially believed he was himself the DO.

[Lacanos]

"You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c'mon!" - Robert Jordan, answering a question about Ishamael and Rand's conversation in their final confrontation of TGH.

 

The man essentially believed he was himself the DO.

That was NOT in context to this statement. You're going to have to do better than that.

[OptimusPrime]

"You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c'mon!" - Robert Jordan, answering a question about Ishamael and Rand's conversation in their final confrontation of TGH.

 

The man essentially believed he was himself the DO.

 

Thing is, when people say "Ishamael has fought the same man in two different incarnations" people still jump to "You belive Ishamael???" Ishamael fought Lewis at least once, has fought Rand three times, and will almost definitely fight Rand again.

[Hadilmir]

This opinionated post sums up my counter-argument, Lacanos.

 

 

For one, the Dark One is Death, Lord of the Grave. Not the black-cloaked skeleton cliche, he is the very essence of a soul leaving the Pattern to await rebirth, Destruction if you will. The imprisoned Dark One cannot create, he can only destroy. Transmitigating a soul is only possible through the Bore; time is different outside the Pattern, but that's irrelevant since balefire burns a soul fully out of the Pattern, it's never at the half stage necessary for the Dark One to push it back into a different body. The Dark One cannot move a soul back into the Pattern, that is the Creator's specialty; it would be quite counter-intuitive for the Light to do that. So, unless the Pattern itself is demanding a counter for the Dragon every time he is born, unlikely in my opinion, then Ishmael was lying.

 

For two, if you're one of the folks that think that the Dark One is Insanity/General Evil/Cliche Evil/(Communism, if you're political) then I can't argue since Lord of the Grave obviously means nothing to you.

[Lacanos]

This opinionated post sums up my counter-argument, Lacanos.

 

 

For one, the Dark One is Death, Lord of the Grave. Not the black-cloaked skeleton cliche, he is the very essence of a soul leaving the Pattern to await rebirth, Destruction if you will. The imprisoned Dark One cannot create, he can only destroy. Transmitigating a soul is only possible through the Bore; time is different outside the Pattern, but that's irrelevant since balefire burns a soul fully out of the Pattern, it's never at the half stage necessary for the Dark One to push it back into a different body. The Dark One cannot move a soul back into the Pattern, that is the Creator's specialty; it would be quite counter-intuitive for the Light to do that. So, unless the Pattern itself is demanding a counter for the Dragon every time he is born, unlikely in my opinion, then Ishmael was lying.

The wheel may well demand a counter for the dragon - it's a thing of balance, after all. Furthermore, the DO may be able to influence it, even fettered as he is - if he was completely free, he'd be able to destroy it supposedly, so we cannot rule that out. There's also the possibility that, when the soul is at the half-way stage, if a body isn't available for transmigration, that he can store it or suspend it or some such. We don't know enough to rule it out.

 

For two, if you're one of the folks that think that the Dark One is Insanity/General Evil/Cliche Evil/(Communism, if you're political) then I can't argue since Lord of the Grave obviously means nothing to you.

I'm not, but Lord of the Grave doesn't rule out him having other abilities. We don't know enough about him to comment.

[Majsju]

Pay attention to the question...

Question: Ishamael mentions in prior turnings of the wheel that the soul of Lews Therin was raised up as the Shadows champion, and if that is the case, who was the champion of the creater, was it .

 

Jordan: You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but cmon!

 

[Lacanos]

Pay attention to the question...

Question: Ishamael mentions in prior turnings of the wheel that the soul of Lews Therin was raised up as the Shadows champion, and if that is the case, who was the champion of the creater, was it .

 

Jordan: You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but cmon!

 

Still proves jack ****.

Indeed, that could prove that Ishamael had always been the shadow's champion and had been lying through his teeth.

[Suttree]

Pay attention to the question...

Question: Ishamael mentions in prior turnings of the wheel that the soul of Lews Therin was raised up as the Shadows champion, and if that is the case, who was the champion of the creater, was it .

 

Jordan: You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but cmon!

 

Still proves jack ****.

Indeed, that could prove that Ishamael had always been the shadow's champion and had been lying through his teeth.

 

Uhhmm didn't you just say above that "I have Ishamael's word. That's a good start, unless you can PROVE he's wrong."

 

You were using Ishamael's word for proof and RJ hasclearly stated he can't be trusted. You can't have it both ways. Apparently what you can do is blindly twist everything to support your viewpoint and respond to every counter argument with some variation of "prove it".

[Lacanos]

Pay attention to the question...

Question: Ishamael mentions in prior turnings of the wheel that the soul of Lews Therin was raised up as the Shadows champion, and if that is the case, who was the champion of the creater, was it .

 

Jordan: You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but cmon!

 

Still proves jack ****.

Indeed, that could prove that Ishamael had always been the shadow's champion and had been lying through his teeth.

 

Uhhmm didn't you just say above that "I have Ishamael's word. That's a good start, unless you can PROVE he's wrong."

 

You were using Ishamael's word for proof and RJ hasclearly stated he can't be trusted. You can't have it both ways. Apparently what you can do is blindly twist everything to support your viewpoint and respond to every counter argument with some variation of "prove it".

 

Erm, you really are missing my point mate.

Firstly, you can either take Ishamael's word that he's fought Rand many many times and assume from that that he's been the shadow's champion all those times. That does leave the other quoted statement, but that is possible to explain away by either saying:

1) RJ DIRECTLY cast doubt on the validity of that statement, while he DIDN'T for the other.

OR

2) Ishamael was the "second-in-command" at those times, and was still one of the shadow's champions

or even

3) Ishamael was dead at the times the Dragon was the Shadow's Champion - killed by the Dragon previously or some such.

 

And if you mistrust Ishamael's word, then I was making the point that Ishamael could be lying. Now, he could be lying about the other too, yet RJ directly contradicted one but not the other.

 

I'd appreciate less of the ad hominem attacks, and more real argument.

 

Ultimately, as I've repeatedly said: WE DON'T KNOW ENOUGH. UNTIL WE CAN PROVE CLEARLY OTHERWISE, WE MUST TAKE ISHAMAEL'S WORD, OR AT LEAST NOT DISMISS IT OUT OF HAND

[farthammer]

Does it even matter if he was or wasn't, as in, having the exact answer necessary to advance some other point or theory ?

 

If it is true that the Dragon has turned to the shadow in previous incarnations, and in at least one of them he was the DO's champion or his #1 then Ishmael has not always been #1.  Unless you just mean if he has always in some way been on the DO's side in looser terms such as normal darkfriend and so on.

[Agitel]

Does it even matter if he was or wasn't, as in, having the exact answer necessary to advance some other point or theory ?

 

If it is true that the Dragon has turned to the shadow in previous incarnations, and in at least one of them he was the DO's champion or his #1 then Ishmael has not always been #1.  Unless you just mean if he has always in some way been on the DO's side in looser terms such as normal darkfriend and so on.

 

It was a question as to whether the Dragon had ever turned that RJ gave the "You believe Ishamael..." line. So that is considered a lie.

 

And the Wheel demands balance.

 

Unfortunately, said balance doesn't include the Shadow. There are good and bad things happening in the world outside of the terribly destructive force trying to destroy it. The Wheel weaves good and bad, but bad does not necessarily mean the Shadow.

 

I suppose Rand could really be a hedgehog having a crazy dream, don't dare try to disprove it, we don't know enough to know whether it's true or not.