A clue to Taim

[Owayn The Traveller]

I don't see why the would need to do that. Rand would assume they don't know each other well without doing that. He would never assume that they were working together as darkfriends if Bashere did recognise him. Bashere has been after Taim and fought him in battle, Taim has ravaged his homeland and killed some Saldeans. All this would would led Rand to believe that they weren't chums. Rand was still very naive then despite what he thought of himself.

[mossman87]

I don't see why the would need to do that. Rand would assume they don't know each other well without doing that. He would never assume that they were working together as darkfriends if Bashere did recognise him. Bashere has been after Taim and fought him in battle, Taim has ravaged his homeland and killed some Saldeans. All this would would led Rand to believe that they weren't chums. Rand was still very naive then despite what he thought of himself.

 

You act like the characters in the book know Rand as well as us readers do.  There's no way anyone in the Dark can be certain how Rand will react to anything.

[haloun]

first! since when was bashere a darkfriend?  second, even messana could be involved with taim... since when did the black ajah do anything but make trouble?  and who said the black ajah did not keep a couple of male dreadlords secret so they could train other male channlers, we know the BA has been guided my ishy since the seals were placed, and then with his death it was fully transfered to Messana, she would know all about any male trained by a BA operative that was also a male chaneller, also we know that galina was head of the red ajah, as well as the head of the BA, and the reds have been setting up false dragons for ever, not just that but taking out a certain number of male chanellers right after the aiel war for no other reason apperently than they didnt cooperate.  opposing even the law of the WT, therefore we can say that it is possible that the black, through the red, has been training male chanellers for quite some time, wht did taim do with the few he found, plus how old is taim anyways?  he can certainly lie, he may be predating the aiel war even, and there would be no way to tell for sure, short of a POV.  I think he may have been one of the few that ishy was able to find and teach through the efforts of the BA, during the Aiel war.  especially since he knew that the DR had just been born, or would be soon, and that meant the cleansing of saidin, the building of the BT and the need for dreadlords, how did they do it before the trolloc wars?  how did the shadow find so many males to be dreadlords than... I think that is who taim is and was and will be, possibly that he will be a new "chosen" but improbable, since there is no evidence that the DO is going to promote anyone anytime soon.  but that is what i think.  someone who is not forsaken but under their influence.

[Owayn The Traveller]

I don't see why the would need to do that. Rand would assume they don't know each other well without doing that. He would never assume that they were working together as darkfriends if Bashere did recognise him. Bashere has been after Taim and fought him in battle, Taim has ravaged his homeland and killed some Saldeans. All this would would led Rand to believe that they weren't chums. Rand was still very naive then despite what he thought of himself.

 

You act like the characters in the book know Rand as well as us readers do.  There's no way anyone in the Dark can be certain how Rand will react to anything.

 

Well they could go on his past record and hazard a guess at what way he would go.

 

Okay imagine if Taim was Rand and he had Elaida as a close advisor. Taim puts out an amnesty to channelers. Rand turns up. Elaida is unsure if it is Rand. Taim would begin to doubt if it was Rand. Now what benefit would that have for Rand and Elaida if they were secretly working together. Why not just pretend to attack each other or something. That would show that they aren't friendly and it puts no doubt in anyones mind about who Rand is.

 

Yes they don't know how Rand would exactly Rand would react. Then why try such a risky manoeuvre with Taim. Rand could of suspected he was a forsaken or an assassin sent by them or whatever and could of lashed out and killed him thus ruining their plans.

All I'm saying is that the shadow should be able to assume that Rand will not think that Taim and Bashere are not friends from their past history that is publicaly know. And if they think he is that suspicious that he could think that the two of them might be working together given their past , putting a doubt in his mind would be risky with how they think of him.

 

I'm not sure if I'm making sense. Basically it would be risky to do this if they think Rand might be that paranoid.

[Mr Ares]

then with his death it was fully transfered to Messana

Do you have anything to support that? Mesaana is based in the Tower, base of the Blacks, but others are able to make use of them as well so it hardly appears to be fully transferred to her.

also we know that galina was head of the red ajah, as well as the head of the BA,

Alviarin was head of the BA.

and the reds have been setting up false dragons for ever

That was a lie, made up by Siuan.

not just that but taking out a certain number of male chanellers right after the aiel war for no other reason apperently than they didnt cooperate.

No, it was because they thought the Dragon was about to declare himself - the Blacks started killing likely suspects, and the Reds were incited into illegal Gentlings for the same reason. The head of the BA was executed by Ishy for that.

therefore we can say that it is possible that the black, through the red, has been training male chanellers for quite some time,

No, we can't. Not with any degree of certainty.

wht did taim do with the few he found, plus how old is taim anyways?

Taim is in his late twenties. As for what he did with them, we don't know any more than he told us. Didn't go further with training, or went crazy and were killed.

[FarShainMael]

first! since when was bashere a darkfriend?

 

Why do I think Bashere might be a DF? There are a number of pointers, especially if - as seems likely - Taim is a DF:

 

1) Firstly, there's Min's Viewing of DB:

 

"And there's something...dark...in the images I saw around Lord Davram." CoT Ch24.

 

2) The WO dreams, recounted by Egwene to Rand:

 

"Melaine and Amys dreamed of a man standing by your side with a dagger to your throat, but you did not see him. "

 

This, of course, could apply to anyone closely associated with Rand. Including Taim himself, except that he is not in Rand's immediate vicinity much these days.

 

3) The incident where Bashere claims not to recognise Taim, and Taim says it's because he shaved off his beard, seems very unlikely, to me. As I've said earlier, you can usually recognise someone by his eyes - and his gait.

 

4) A shared attitude to saidin, considering weapons pointless to a channeller. See Bashere in LoC Ch1, when he throws a dagger at Rand, who stops it with saidin, and DB says 'see? you don't need to learn the sword.' See also Taim, in LoC Ch11 he tells Rand he sent the Master of the Sword away because he thinks swords are a waste of time, and Rand orders him to bring the man back and resume training.

 

5) The note Bashere says was found in the thieves' pockets after the attempted theft from his tent. As I mentioned earlier, in CoT Ch24, Bashere tells Rand about the attack. He says that one of the thieves was 'carrying a note I could swear I wrote myself if I didn't know better. An order to carry away 'certain items'.' That could be a piece of misdirection; perhaps he did write it himself, and is anticipating anyone identifying it as being in his hand.

 

None of these is anywhere near strong enough to be called evidence, not even Min's viewing. However, taken as a group, they were enough to make me keep a very close eye on DB.

 

[FarShainMael]

I don't see why the would need to do that. Rand would assume they don't know each other well without doing that. He would never assume that they were working together as darkfriends if Bashere did recognise him. Bashere has been after Taim and fought him in battle, Taim has ravaged his homeland and killed some Saldeans. All this would would led Rand to believe that they weren't chums. Rand was still very naive then despite what he thought of himself.

 

You act like the characters in the book know Rand as well as us readers do.  There's no way anyone in the Dark can be certain how Rand will react to anything.

 

Well they could go on his past record and hazard a guess at what way he would go.

 

Okay imagine if Taim was Rand and he had Elaida as a close advisor. Taim puts out an amnesty to channelers. Rand turns up. Elaida is unsure if it is Rand. Taim would begin to doubt if it was Rand. Now what benefit would that have for Rand and Elaida if they were secretly working together. Why not just pretend to attack each other or something. That would show that they aren't friendly and it puts no doubt in anyones mind about who Rand is.

 

Yes they don't know how Rand would exactly Rand would react. Then why try such a risky manoeuvre with Taim. Rand could of suspected he was a forsaken or an assassin sent by them or whatever and could of lashed out and killed him thus ruining their plans.

All I'm saying is that the shadow should be able to assume that Rand will not think that Taim and Bashere are not friends from their past history that is publicaly know. And if they think he is that suspicious that he could think that the two of them might be working together given their past , putting a doubt in his mind would be risky with how they think of him.

 

I'm not sure if I'm making sense. Basically it would be risky to do this if they think Rand might be that paranoid.

 

As I see it, they may be laying the groundwork for some plan they have made together, or they are anticipating tricky questions - as DB may have done with that note. Don't ask me what that plan / questions might be, though!

 

[Sharaman]

Not disagreeing that Bashere may be a DF - he and Rhuarc would be potentially the most damaging people close to Rand because Rand actually trusts them both unlike Taim. The lack of PoVs from either (just a small one from DB and zero from Rhuarc) is in RJ's terms, almost a giveaway.

 

However to take FarShainMael points

1) Min's visions could mean anything - she does carry on to say "if he turns against you" - the "if" is interesting since it suggests she's not sure.

 

2)Again, could be Rhuarc or Dobraine or perhaps, the unknown high Lord of Tear (Darlin?), who was at the TGH DF social

 

3)Bashere may not ever have actually been in close sight of Taim - seen him at a distance on a battlefield or only seen portraits of him. Taim was captured by sisters when he fell unconscious and hustled away. Bashere may only have seen him unconscious. The conversation suggests that they haven't really spoken before- ceetainly not met since Taim turned Bashere's agents into idiots. 

 

4) Bashere may actually have been testing Rand's speed and reflexes - he's never seen him channel in a threat situation and he might have been curious. I think Taim's supposed ineptness with swords is misdirection and an outright lie. He's generally physically well-coordinated and he's a Saldean of some education. Even Narishma the borderlands cobbler was taught the sword to high standards - Taim must have learnt the sword and learnt it well long before the spark ignited.

 

5) The note is very similar to the note recovered from the attempt to kill Dobraine, which again purported to be a laissez passer written by Dobraine. I don't think Bashere is lying here - it fits with the Shadow pattern - they were trying to recover seals/ CK. If the agents succeeded, they might have to carry them out past an inspection guard.

 

 

 

 

[FarShainMael]

Agreed, these are all valid alternatives.

 

[Lacanos]

first! since when was bashere a darkfriend?

 

Why do I think Bashere might be a DF? There are a number of pointers, especially if - as seems likely - Taim is a DF:

 

1) Firstly, there's Min's Viewing of DB:

 

"And there's something...dark...in the images I saw around Lord Davram." CoT Ch24.

 

2) The WO dreams, recounted by Egwene to Rand:

 

"Melaine and Amys dreamed of a man standing by your side with a dagger to your throat, but you did not see him. "

 

This, of course, could apply to anyone closely associated with Rand. Including Taim himself, except that he is not in Rand's immediate vicinity much these days.

 

3) The incident where Bashere claims not to recognise Taim, and Taim says it's because he shaved off his beard, seems very unlikely, to me. As I've said earlier, you can usually recognise someone by his eyes - and his gait.

 

4) A shared attitude to saidin, considering weapons pointless to a channeller. See Bashere in LoC Ch1, when he throws a dagger at Rand, who stops it with saidin, and DB says 'see? you don't need to learn the sword.' See also Taim, in LoC Ch11 he tells Rand he sent the Master of the Sword away because he thinks swords are a waste of time, and Rand orders him to bring the man back and resume training.

 

5) The note Bashere says was found in the thieves' pockets after the attempted theft from his tent. As I mentioned earlier, in CoT Ch24, Bashere tells Rand about the attack. He says that one of the thieves was 'carrying a note I could swear I wrote myself if I didn't know better. An order to carry away 'certain items'.' That could be a piece of misdirection; perhaps he did write it himself, and is anticipating anyone identifying it as being in his hand.

 

None of these is anywhere near strong enough to be called evidence, not even Min's viewing. However, taken as a group, they were enough to make me keep a very close eye on DB.

 

Think back to the only DB PoV we have (that I can think of anyway), book 8. It's not great clarification, but he does not get along with Rochaid, and certainly doesn't seem to think anything particularly "in common" with him. Contrast that with Weiramon, who gets in a private argument with Torval.

[FarShainMael]

This is the bit in Ch24? It's not great clarification, no, either way. Neither is the DB poV in CoT prologue. I'll read both of those slowly, as thoough DB were a DF, and see if they make sense.

 

[FarShainMael]

Right. I've had a read through both DB's PoVs in tPoD and CoT, and they are as ambiguous as Min's viewing suggests.

 

tPoD Ch23/24:

 

Bashere tried to dissuade Rand from pressing the attack to Ebou Dar at the end of Ch23. The attack goes ahead. DB speaks angrily with Rochaid, apparently for being slow to attack damane, but then he would - he's losing soldiers. He muses to himself that 'today had been costly'. The comment about not wanting 'that sort of man wandering about loose' may mean channellers, or deserters/potential renegades.

 

The Forsaken aren't exactly bosom pals, and neither would DFs be, I think!

 

CoT prologue:

 

DB is musing about Tenobia wanting his head for 'treason twice over' and calling it a 'neat and thorny problem'. He doesn't seem unduly worried. Odd, that - she's his niece FHS!

 

When he realises his tent has been attacked, he runs there. Seeing his wife, he notes that 'he knew she would die one day - they both would'. They joke with each other about the poor standard of servants they have. Bashere leaves the tent while Deira is being stitched, and muses that he 'had been expecting this, or something like this, for a long time'.

 

No doubt this would be because he's expecting an attempt to steal the seal - though why, when surely no-one knows he has it - but could it be because he has given orders for it to be stolen, to remove it from Rand, or to bolster his own credibility?

 

The thieves are found, having been killed by a stab to the back of the head with a narrow blade. I don't think DB had time to do that himself, FWIW - if he was responsible, it's quite likely that he had a third man out there to do the job. He's certainly ready to kill the thieves - 'murder on his face' - but then he would be, whether for attacking his wife or to make sure they're silenced. Or, possibly, both.

 

It's interesting that that was described as murder 'on his face' rather than 'in his heart'.

 

His closing remark is curious. He whispers to Tumad (one of Taim's guards in LoC Ch2) to find 'the man who came to him yesterday', to tell him DB agreed, but 'there will be a few more than we talked about'.

 

In both tPoD and CoT, all very ambiguous.. but then it would be, wouldn't it?

 

One way or another though, it seems we will lose Bashere (see Min's Viewing of Perrin and the broken crown); but whether that is for or against the Light remains to be seen.

 

 

 

BTW, I've just done a search on Bashere, and the possibility of his being a DF has been suggested by others more than a few times. So has the possibility of fake seals.

 

 

[Lacanos]

Right. I've had a read through both DB's PoVs in tPoD and CoT, and they are as ambiguous as Min's viewing suggests.

 

No doubt this would be because he's expecting an attempt to steal the seal - though why, when surely no-one knows he has it - but could it be because he has given orders for it to be stolen, to remove it from Rand, or to bolster his own credibility?

Or y'know, we could take the obvious two answers : it's suspected he may be holding the seal (as is later mentioned in a Rand PoV when discussing the attacks on Bashere and Dobraine), or he's been expecting an attack for siding with Rand.

 

The thieves are found, having been killed by a stab to the back of the head with a narrow blade. I don't think DB had time to do that himself, FWIW - if he was responsible, it's quite likely that he had a third man out there to do the job. He's certainly ready to kill the thieves - 'murder on his face' - but then he would be, whether for attacking his wife or to make sure they're silenced. Or, possibly, both.

I'm sorry, but you're absolutely grasping at straws. It's quite clear he had nothing to do with this. He wouldn't countenance an attack on his wife, which seems to be the only purpose of this - god knows Rand trusts him enough.

 

 

His closing remark is curious. He whispers to Tumad (one of Taim's guards in LoC Ch2) to find 'the man who came to him yesterday', to tell him DB agreed, but 'there will be a few more than we talked about'.

Which is about travelling to meet Rand.

 

 

One way or another though, it seems we will lose Bashere (see Min's Viewing of Perrin and the broken crown); but whether that is for or against the Light remains to be seen.

Or Bashere could refuse the crown, or there could be any number of possibilities and permutations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FarShainMael]

The whole question of whether Bashere is a DF is highly ambiguous, I agree. If he is, he's playing a very deep and patient game. But, according to Melaine and Amys' dream of 'a man standing by <Rand's> side with a dagger to <his> throat, but <he> did not see him', someone in Rand's entourage has been doing exactly that.

 

It's not necessarily Bashere though.. but I will continue to watch him closely.

 

The thieves are found, having been killed by a stab to the back of the head with a narrow blade. I don't think DB had time to do that himself, FWIW - if he was responsible, it's quite likely that he had a third man out there to do the job. He's certainly ready to kill the thieves - 'murder on his face' - but then he would be, whether for attacking his wife or to make sure they're silenced. Or, possibly, both.

 

I'm sorry, but you're absolutely grasping at straws. It's quite clear he had nothing to do with this. He wouldn't countenance an attack on his wife, which seems to be the only purpose of this - god knows Rand trusts him enough.

 

As I've stated, the apparent purpose was to retrieve that seal. For the rest, Bashere muses that 'He had been expecting this, or something like, for a long time.. But he had never expected Deira to nearly die because of it'.

 

[haloun]

ok i just read the b it about the thieves who had the note... and that was dobraine not bashere.  someone has got something mixed up here.  it was in COT chapter glimmers of the pattern, in cairhein loial and the ashaman he has been traveling with, karldin, are in the kitchens talking with the aes sedai and someone runs in saying that dobrain has been murdered... they all go to dobraines apartments, and find him laying there, throat cut, with two  theives dead as well, samitsu heals him as best she can, which almost kills him and then they find the note written in dobraines handwriting to remove certain items from the apartment. since this is the quote that  so far has been put up the most stating that bashere is a darkfriend, i have just proved the theory wrong, as far as the thieves are concerned anyways.

[Lacanos]

ok i just read the b it about the thieves who had the note... and that was dobraine not bashere.  someone has got something mixed up here.  it was in COT chapter glimmers of the pattern, in cairhein loial and the ashaman he has been traveling with, karldin, are in the kitchens talking with the aes sedai and someone runs in saying that dobrain has been murdered... they all go to dobraines apartments, and find him laying there, throat cut, with two  theives dead as well, samitsu heals him as best she can, which almost kills him and then they find the note written in dobraines handwriting to remove certain items from the apartment. since this is the quote that  so far has been put up the most stating that bashere is a darkfriend, i have just proved the theory wrong, as far as the thieves are concerned anyways.

They both had notes.

[FarShainMael]

since this is the quote that  so far has been put up the most stating that bashere is a darkfriend, i have just proved the theory wrong, as far as the thieves are concerned anyways.

 

Actually, no. For one thing, I haven't named anything as the primary pointer to DB; if I did, I'd say it ws Min's viewing.

 

Secondly, there was more than one note, as Lacanos says. One was found on a servant beside Dobraine when he had been knifed. Samitsu PoV: 'She had seen Dobraine's writing often enough to recognize the rounded hand as his'. Then she says: 'Obviously, someone employs a very good forger'. Later, in Ch24, this note is said to be 'apparently in Dobraine's hand'.

 

This servant is not one of those who was found stabbed in the back of the head after the raid on DB's tent. From Ch24, DB speaking: 'Two men ransacked my tent.. one carrying a note I could swear I wrote myself if I didn't know better. A order to carry away 'certain items'. Loial tells me the fellows who knifed Dobraine had the same sort of note'.

 

I say again, this is not evidence of any kind, just pointers.

 

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

If Bashere is a DF we can hope that Rand rounds his family up and Faile gets burned by a mob.:) :)

[al Caldazar seicair]

Taim was done in by the 13x13

[The Desert Pea]

If Bashere is a DF we can hope that Rand rounds his family up and Faile gets burned by a mob.:) :)

 

Death by mob burning is too humane a death for Faile ;D

[Cirin]

We don't know that Faile isn't a Darkfriend!  Maybe she married Perrin because she thought he was evil from the whole Wolfeyes thing!  After all, she did kill the Prophet of the Lord Dragon!  And she lets her woman soldiers wear PANTS!  Clearly a Darkfriend!

[OptimusPrime]

We don't know that Faile isn't a Darkfriend!  Maybe she married Perrin because she thought he was evil from the whole Wolfeyes thing!  After all, she did kill the Prophet of the Lord Dragon!  And she lets her woman soldiers wear PANTS!  Clearly a Darkfriend!

 

Why did she kill Masema??? He sure as hell wasnt in a position to cause so much chaos anymore, meaning his usefulness has gone down, and hes with one of the Lights three biggest assets meaning theres the chance they could find out "Rand" appeared to him...

 

If Bashere is a DF we can hope that Rand rounds his family up and Faile gets burned by a mob.:) :)

 

Death by mob burning is too humane a death for Faile ;D

 

Failes death deserves a hell of a lot more speculation than it gets

[Barid Bel Medar]

We don't know that Faile isn't a Darkfriend!  Maybe she married Perrin because she thought he was evil from the whole Wolfeyes thing!  After all, she did kill the Prophet of the Lord Dragon!  And she lets her woman soldiers wear PANTS!  Clearly a Darkfriend!

 

Why did she kill Masema??? He sure as hell wasnt in a position to cause so much chaos anymore, meaning his usefulness has gone down, and hes with one of the Lights three biggest assets meaning theres the chance they could find out "Rand" appeared to him...

 

If Bashere is a DF we can hope that Rand rounds his family up and Faile gets burned by a mob.:) :)

 

Death by mob burning is too humane a death for Faile ;D

 

Failes death deserves a hell of a lot more speculation than it gets

 

it would serve alot of purpose in the story (as well as personal satisfaction) beacsue we constantly hear Perrin saying how important she is. If she died, would Perrin abandon his duties? i think that struggle would be interesting (again, not to mention extremely satisfying) and HOW would Perrin deal with her being a DF? would he become a DF too? VERY interesting from a plot perspective. (have i mentioned it would also be extremely satisfying?)

[Naffy]

Why all the Faile hate?  Faile isn't the problem, Perrin is.  He was lame way before he met Faile.  I would prefer to see Perrin's death on screen.

[Cirin]

Faile is just using Perrin to get to Hopper.