Shadowspawn after Tarmon Gaidonbowl: Will they or Won't they.

[Beer Rot]

So our buddy Nicola foretold that there would still be war and (gonads and) strife after the Last Battle.

 

Do you think the Bore being completely resealed will make all the shadowspawn drop dead/easy to kill, or will the Blight cleanup crew have to spend a few years clearing it out?

 

 

 

 

To me, it depends on how RJ wanted the series to end.  If he wanted a "happily ever after", then they'll all keel over dead.  If he wants a good set up for continuing stories in the world, he'd let 'em live and have to be hunted down.

[TriceraBass]

To me, it depends on how RJ wanted the series to end.  If he wanted a "happily ever after", then they'll all keel over dead.  If he wants a good set up for continuing stories in the world, he'd let 'em live and have to be hunted down.

 

This stinks of a lack of imagination.

[BeckeyLee]

I don't see RJ creating a complete happily ever after ending. There's always gonna be something going on. I think those left will still have to be killed off, but no more will be created.

 

I'm assuming the Blight will disappear though, it seems directly connected to the DO.

[Beer Rot]

Oh I'm assuming the Blight will slowly die out.  I just wonder about the worms, trollocs, fades, etc.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Anything thats not killed in the last battle or needs the climate or just needs the blight will survive. Trollocs will but will be decimated and not be a threat for a while.

[Druugan]

Seeing as how the Outrigger novels were to be stories that take place after TG, I would think that it won't be all rainbows and butterflies.  Also, so long as the wheel turns, the balance should still exist and the Shadow will have to be there at some point.  So I would think that the Shadowspawn will likely still be there until they are all hunted down and killed and the Blight will gradually recede.  Then the memory of them will fade away to legend and myth until the Age of Legends comes again and they are created again for the "first" time.

 

So the real question is... will this instance of the Third Age have a different result than previous turnings of the Wheel?

 

Robert Jordan said in the Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001:

 

Q:  At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about this Age that makes it special?

 

RJ:  No . . . every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other Turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

 

This makes some permanent end seem unlikely... unless this was some sort of AS type of answer where the truth we hear may not be the truth we thought... so while we're looking in one direction while the Wheel turns in another.

 

Either way, I'm anxiously waiting to find out.  :)

[MikeRiley]

The shadowspawn were all created using the True Power. If the Bore is closed up and the Dark One's influence over the world is removed, then so will that power. I'd say this would cause them to fall over where they are in a similar manner that the trollocs do when the fade linked to them dies.

 

Don't read too into Nicola's fortelling. It did not tell us anything we didn't already know. Rand is holding onto his nations by a thread. There's barely peace anywhere. The Seanchan have control over roughly half the nations. There will be a major clash after the Dark One is dealt with. Remember that most ex-rulers only recognize Rand's right to rule until the Last Battle ends. They're all scheming to get back what they lost and won't respect what laws Rand imposed during his conquest.

[Hadilmir]

The shadowspawn were all created using the True Power. If the Bore is closed up and the Dark One's influence over the world is removed, then so will that power. I'd say this would cause them to fall over where they are in a similar manner that the trollocs do when the fade linked to them dies.

 

No they weren't...

 

Also, by your logic a Trolloc could not enter a Stedding. This is false.

[Muad Cheade]

In the Age of Legends, during the War of Power, after Lews Therin lead the Strike at Shayol Ghul and sealed the Bore, Trollocs still remained and had to be forced back to the Blight.

 

The fact that they have continued to exist from the point the Bore was sealed to the "current period" signifies that they are able to function regardless of the Dark One's state and must be fully hunted down to cease their attacks (like they were in Saenchan).

[Lacanos]

So our buddy Nicola foretold that there would still be war and (gonads and) strife after the Last Battle.

 

Do you think the Bore being completely resealed will make all the shadowspawn drop dead/easy to kill, or will the Blight cleanup crew have to spend a few years clearing it out?

 

 

 

 

To me, it depends on how RJ wanted the series to end.  If he wanted a "happily ever after", then they'll all keel over dead.  If he wants a good set up for continuing stories in the world, he'd let 'em live and have to be hunted down.

 

If I remember that foretelling correctly, the line was "the great battle done, but the world not yet done with battle....the guardians balance the servants...the world teeters on the edge of a knife".

I'm pretty sure it wasn't referring to tarmon gaidon, but more likely dumai wells or the battle with the seanchan depending on which book it was (I believe 7?)

[Shadow Rider]

There will most definitely be a clean up crew for what ever remains of Trollics & Fades and known Darkfriends but I think the wars would mostly be among men.

I have the firm belief that both Male & Female Channelers will lose the ability to channel after the sealing of the bore.

[Caedn of the Taardad]

There will most definitely be a clean up crew for what ever remains of Trollics & Fades and known Darkfriends but I think the wars would mostly be among men.

I have the firm belief that both Male & Female Channelers will lose the ability to channel after the sealing of the bore.

 

 

No, I don't buy that.  In the Age of Legends, they most certainly could channel, and if the Wheel intends to turn on, then they need another AoL where channeling is so commonday and highly researched that they bore into the DO's prison yet again...

 

Besides, the DO only represents the TP, not the OP, which comes from the Creator and/or the Wheel...

 

Unless, of course, you mean that everyone that does the sealing gets Stilled?

[farthammer]

What if the AS had a do not channel day once a year.  Would the WOT cease to exist?  You're assuming it actually needs to be channeled by people, ultimately a very tiny percentage of the world population at that.  There's also not a clear dividing line in all cases between being able to channel and being totally unable to channel with the exception of the case where someone was stilled or gentled.  Suppose the ability of those who are obviously able to channel significant amounts is the result of an overall (world) fixed amount being disproportionally concentrated into relatively few people.  What would the world look like if it was once again evenly distributed?  Probably something like Shadow Riser suggested, while not exactly stilling, you would no longer be able to tell someone could channel at all.

[Druugan]

I have the firm belief that both Male & Female Channelers will lose the ability to channel after the sealing of the bore.

 

 

No, I don't buy that.  In the Age of Legends, they most certainly could channel, and if the Wheel intends to turn on, then they need another AoL where channeling is so commonday and highly researched that they bore into the DO's prison yet again...

 

Besides, the DO only represents the TP, not the OP, which comes from the Creator and/or the Wheel...

 

Unless, of course, you mean that everyone that does the sealing gets Stilled?

 

You are forgetting that channeling was discovered at some point in the AoL, or the age preceding the AoL, by the first channeler, Tamrylin. For the same reason as is in your argument, this requires that something will bring an end to channeling for a long enough time that is is forgotten until it is rediscovered again by the 'first channeler' in the next turning.

 

Also, "Memory of Light" sure sounds like it could mean that either the Shadow wins and the Light is only a memory, or that channeling goes away and the Light that is the One Power is only a memory. Of course, it could mean something completely different too. I'm just speculating when I should be doing some work.

[Caedn of the Taardad]

I have the firm belief that both Male & Female Channelers will lose the ability to channel after the sealing of the bore.

 

 

No, I don't buy that.  In the Age of Legends, they most certainly could channel, and if the Wheel intends to turn on, then they need another AoL where channeling is so commonday and highly researched that they bore into the DO's prison yet again...

 

Besides, the DO only represents the TP, not the OP, which comes from the Creator and/or the Wheel...

 

Unless, of course, you mean that everyone that does the sealing gets Stilled?

 

You are forgetting that channeling was discovered at some point in the AoL, or the age preceding the AoL, by the first channeler, Tamrylin. For the same reason as is in your argument, this requires that something will bring an end to channeling for a long enough time that is is forgotten until it is rediscovered again by the 'first channeler' in the next turning.

 

Also, "Memory of Light" sure sounds like it could mean that either the Shadow wins and the Light is only a memory, or that channeling goes away and the Light that is the One Power is only a memory. Of course, it could mean something completely different too. I'm just speculating when I should be doing some work.

 

True, I must concede a couple of points there (is the Tamyrlin discovery from the books (unlikely considering how many times I’ve gone through them…), or from this BWB I still need to get my hands on someday?)  But yes, I do seem to remember someone else mentioning Tamyrlin discovering channeling elsewhere. 

 

I was more referring to the implication that channeling might be immediately forgotten, though looking back at my post, it does sound like that; my only excuse is that I was in a hurry to finish. 

 

[Blackhoof]

Nicola foretold "the gaurdians(Asha'man) would balance the servants(Aes Sedai)", if they cant channel, they wouldn't balance either, would they? they wouldn't even exist. Channeling, i beliebve is lost in either late fourth/early fifth or early/late sixth.

[Lacanos]

Nicola foretold "the gaurdians(Asha'man) would balance the servants(Aes Sedai)", if they cant channel, they wouldn't balance either, would they? they wouldn't even exist. Channeling, i beliebve is lost in either late fourth/early fifth or early/late sixth.

That foretelling is not set after the last battle. Will everyone stop misinterpreting it.

[Mr Ares]

Nicola foretold "the gaurdians(Asha'man) would balance the servants(Aes Sedai)", if they cant channel, they wouldn't balance either, would they? they wouldn't even exist. Channeling, i beliebve is lost in either late fourth/early fifth or early/late sixth.

That foretelling is not set after the last battle. Will everyone stop misinterpreting it.

What a convincing argument. You've won me round.

[MikeRiley]

If I remember that foretelling correctly, the line was "the great battle done, but the world not yet done with battle....the guardians balance the servants...the world teeters on the edge of a knife".

I'm pretty sure it wasn't referring to tarmon gaidon, but more likely dumai wells or the battle with the seanchan depending on which book it was (I believe 7?)

 

The great battle could only refer to the Last Battle. Why would there be a foretelling that there was a battle and that there will be more battles? Everybody would have already known that. The world is on a straight course to a massive war - not with the Dark One or his Shadowspawn - with each other. It's been noted multiple times throughout the series that Rand's control over the nations he conquered will dissolve the moment the Last Battle ends and that will leave them in a state of anarchy. He worries that the laws he put in place will be removed simply because he set them up.

 

Throw the Seanchan into the mix. They have nearly half the known world, even if Seandar itself is in a state of civil war. Their truce with the Dragon will last until the Last Battle is over.

 

But even if I'm wrong and this "great battle" isn't Tarmon Gaidon, why should it be Dumai's Wells? That battle was just a skirmish compared to Perrin and the Seanchan defeating the Shaido. And how many trollocs were destroyed at Rand's hideout?

 

Anyway, I think it's the Last Battle this refers to and I don't think we'll see much of the aftermath unless the outrigger novels get written. If I'm right we'll likely never know it.

[Dagon Thyne]

I have said this before...but think only TRUE evil is destoryed at the last battle...In other words...the DO.  Trollocs are not evil...they merely follow the animalistic instinces of the creatures they were created from..and have at least some of the mind of a human to allow them to be manipulated by fear.

[Lacanos]

If I remember that foretelling correctly, the line was "the great battle done, but the world not yet done with battle....the guardians balance the servants...the world teeters on the edge of a knife".

I'm pretty sure it wasn't referring to tarmon gaidon, but more likely dumai wells or the battle with the seanchan depending on which book it was (I believe 7?)

 

The great battle could only refer to the Last Battle. Why would there be a foretelling that there was a battle and that there will be more battles? Everybody would have already known that. The world is on a straight course to a massive war - not with the Dark One or his Shadowspawn - with each other. It's been noted multiple times throughout the series that Rand's control over the nations he conquered will dissolve the moment the Last Battle ends and that will leave them in a state of anarchy. He worries that the laws he put in place will be removed simply because he set them up.

 

Throw the Seanchan into the mix. They have nearly half the known world, even if Seandar itself is in a state of civil war. Their truce with the Dragon will last until the Last Battle is over.

 

But even if I'm wrong and this "great battle" isn't Tarmon Gaidon, why should it be Dumai's Wells? That battle was just a skirmish compared to Perrin and the Seanchan defeating the Shaido. And how many trollocs were destroyed at Rand's hideout?

 

Anyway, I think it's the Last Battle this refers to and I don't think we'll see much of the aftermath unless the outrigger novels get written. If I'm right we'll likely never know it.

 

Firstly, @Mr Ares: I made a post explaining on the previous thread that was promptly ignored. Try responding with argument yourself.

As for this prophecy and why I've always believed it doesn't refer to Tarmon Gaidon:

“The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.”

 

The first crucial phrase there is "the great battle". Now, I agree that the most likely interpretation of that as a standalone phrase is as referring to Tarmon Gaidon as that will likely be the largest battle ever seen. However, these other battles (Dumai Wells, war with the Seanchan, seeing as the telling is in book 6 could even refer to the huge battles with the Shaido in book 5). I personally however think it's most likely to refer to Dumai Wells, admittedly based upon weak evidence. The phrase "the great battle *done*" could mean the viewing is set in the future, or it could be a reference to events that have recently happened - Dumai Wells being the closest battle to this foretelling and therefore probably able to fit with the timescale of this. It's not a small battle either.

 

The other phrases are certainly applicable now: The Guardians balance the Servants - we can agree the argument for that can be set now or after (if you exclude theories of the power going, which I personally do).

The Land divided by the return - again, could apply now, could apply after depending on how the Seanchan plot develops in the next book.

Future teetering on the edge of a knife - now this I feel more keenly now. Only now does the very existence of the future itself depend on victory.

 

I also think the very last thing you said, "Anyway, I think it's the Last Battle this refers to and I don't think we'll see much of the aftermath unless the outrigger novels get written. If I'm right we'll likely never know it." makes me believe that it can't refer to after the last battle - simply because we'll likely see a resolution to it as it was important enough unlike most of her prophecies to mention specifically.

[MikeRiley]

It was important in that it lets us know it's not going to be a happy ending. We were already told there's going to be a lot of loose ends left after the last book. That whole foretelling can be taken as one scene. I'll explain what I mean... The rest of my post will be made with the assumption that it's correct, to better clarify. I'm not saying this is the only way to interpret it, it's just the way I have been.

 

 

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond."

 

This describes the 3 mentioned in the next line, the "three on the boat".

 

"and he who is dead yet lives."

 

This is generally believed to be Rand and generally believed that not everybody is going to know it's him, or won't know he's still alive. He is also on the boat with the 3 previously described.

 

"The great battle done, but the world not done with battle."

 

The Last Battle is over - we can assume relatively safely that this "great battle" (even if I'm wrong in it being TG) is responsible for the state that "he who is dead yet lives" is in. Assuming this foretelling is describing a single scene, we're looking at a body being spirited away quietly by 3 people after a battle, which would be very reminiscent of King Arthur's trip to Avalon, especially with the "yet lives" since according to legend King Arthur is still alive and will return when the world needs him. The world isn't done with battles though. The Dragon is the leader of a large portion of Randland and his disappearance, if even temporary, will have created a void. It's widely believed in the books that the Dragon will die in the Last Battle, and the nobles are plotting with that in mind. This will put the nations in a state of anarchy.

 

"The land divided by the return,"

 

The Seanchan.

 

"and the guardians balance the servants"

 

I take this to mean there'll be a spat between the Black and White Towers. This line comes right after bringing up the Seanchan - wielders of the Power in battle. It makes this balance bit even more important, as the Towers will need to be united to deal with the Seanchan threat. "The land is divided by the return and the only two groups capable of fighting back are hostile to each other."

 

"The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

 

The Seanchan truce with Rand ends with Rand's disappearance after the Last Battle. The Black and White Towers are Randland's only real hope of driving them back into the sea, or else making peace, but they are in their own dispute. This causes a 3 way war and each side has access to the power. If it's allowed to progress, a war of the power on this scale could easily cause a second Breaking. Peace would have to be made early on.

 

 

To push it a little further, I don't believe the great battle could refer to any battle we've seen in the series so far. This foretelling seems to tell the state the world is in. Whatever battle it refers to, it's "done", and Rand is assumed gone. We only see something like this happen once in the books, when Rand disappears to hunt down the Asha'man traitors, but only Min went with him and the destruction of a small portion of the palace could hardly be called a great battle.

[Mr Ares]

If I remember that foretelling correctly, the line was "the great battle done, but the world not yet done with battle....the guardians balance the servants...the world teeters on the edge of a knife".

I'm pretty sure it wasn't referring to tarmon gaidon, but more likely dumai wells or the battle with the seanchan depending on which book it was (I believe 7?)

 

The great battle could only refer to the Last Battle. Why would there be a foretelling that there was a battle and that there will be more battles? Everybody would have already known that. The world is on a straight course to a massive war - not with the Dark One or his Shadowspawn - with each other. It's been noted multiple times throughout the series that Rand's control over the nations he conquered will dissolve the moment the Last Battle ends and that will leave them in a state of anarchy. He worries that the laws he put in place will be removed simply because he set them up.

 

Throw the Seanchan into the mix. They have nearly half the known world, even if Seandar itself is in a state of civil war. Their truce with the Dragon will last until the Last Battle is over.

 

But even if I'm wrong and this "great battle" isn't Tarmon Gaidon, why should it be Dumai's Wells? That battle was just a skirmish compared to Perrin and the Seanchan defeating the Shaido. And how many trollocs were destroyed at Rand's hideout?

 

Anyway, I think it's the Last Battle this refers to and I don't think we'll see much of the aftermath unless the outrigger novels get written. If I'm right we'll likely never know it.

 

Firstly, @Mr Ares: I made a post explaining on the previous thread that was promptly ignored. Try responding with argument yourself.

Which other thread? Provide. Your post on the previous page of this thread just said "I'm pretty sure it wasn't referring to tarmon gaidon." That's not much of an argument. My counter argument, just as convincing: I'm pretty sure it does. Of course you were ignored, you didn't say anything.

As for this prophecy and why I've always believed it doesn't refer to Tarmon Gaidon:

“The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.”

 

The first crucial phrase there is "the great battle". Now, I agree that the most likely interpretation of that as a standalone phrase is as referring to Tarmon Gaidon as that will likely be the largest battle ever seen. However, these other battles (Dumai Wells, war with the Seanchan, seeing as the telling is in book 6 could even refer to the huge battles with the Shaido in book 5). I personally however think it's most likely to refer to Dumai Wells, admittedly based upon weak evidence. The phrase "the great battle *done*" could mean the viewing is set in the future, or it could be a reference to events that have recently happened - Dumai Wells being the closest battle to this foretelling and therefore probably able to fit with the timescale of this. It's not a small battle either.

 

The other phrases are certainly applicable now: The Guardians balance the Servants - we can agree the argument for that can be set now or after (if you exclude theories of the power going, which I personally do).

The Land divided by the return - again, could apply now, could apply after depending on how the Seanchan plot develops in the next book.

Future teetering on the edge of a knife - now this I feel more keenly now. Only now does the very existence of the future itself depend on victory.

 

I also think the very last thing you said, "Anyway, I think it's the Last Battle this refers to and I don't think we'll see much of the aftermath unless the outrigger novels get written. If I'm right we'll likely never know it." makes me believe that it can't refer to after the last battle - simply because we'll likely see a resolution to it as it was important enough unlike most of her prophecies to mention specifically.

The rest of your post boils down to a more long winded "I don't think it refers to TG." You base it on no evidence. Dumai's Wells was a fairly big battle, TG will be bigger. You think it refers to DW. Fine. But don't claim others are misinterpreting that Prophecy when you have given no reason for us to believe they are.

[Blackhoof]

Its funny watching ares kill people when its not happening to me.

[Mr Ares]

Its funny watching ares kill people when its not happening to me.

I think it's funny watching Mr Ares kill people even when it is happening to you.