What if Tuon( Fortuona) snapes and she is becoming a chaneller?

[wvlr2]

I genuinely like her, accept for her hypocrisy on this issue, and I'm curious to see how she will respond when she can no longer maintain her double standards.

 

PLEASE don't take the personal - but anyone who likes her (IMHO) is DISCUSTING!

 

Whether she can channel or not - Tuon thinks it is OK to "Collar" damane, not to mention what she does to "davonte" (sp).

 

On top of that - as you said she is a Double hypocrite - she herself can channel - "I choose not to" but she does not even pause to give others the same choice.

 

Plus she and her Seanchan are throwing the whole world into turmoil when TG is just around the corner.

 

Add to that her Superstitious gobbeldy goop that she keeps changing when it turns out to be wrong.    "Oh - she must have counted the ants wrong."    

 

And her nauseating sense of "self righteous Seanchan Empirical entitlement"

 

On top of that - She ruins Mat's character as much as Faile ruins Perrin's.   (OK you caught me - this IS the main reason that I hate them!   But that does not make the others reasons any less valid!)  (But at least Tuon is better than Queen Tylin - that really made me want to gag!)

 

There are more reasons (I’m sure) but I can’t think of them right now.

 

 

Back to the Original thread - If the Creator serves the light then Tuon will get her due.     I like the idea of her trying to Collar Rand and wearing both wrist-bands only to find that it back-fires.   Or Mat gets in trouble & she channels to save him.

 

 

EDITED to Add....  I knew that there was more .....

 

Tuon thinks that it is good for Siblings to Plot & Commit Murder of thier Siblings - as well as anyone else in their way.

[Aquarius]

Hehehe ... I like that post :)

 

She's much like Elayne in her Royalty things. But unlike Elayne, she might react the right way when confronted with a tough situation.

[yoniy0]

Damn you all, Elayne haters. What did she ever do to you?

She was kind of a douche when she tossed poo at Mat, but that was funny, so I let that slide. Other than that, when has she made a bad decision?

[Mhoram]

RJ wrote a chapter where she was frustrated at being pregnant, feeling crappy, and wet, where she whinged and everyone else made fun of her.  ;)

 

I think what is clear, is that Tuon does snap and channels once, her resolve not to channel will not last - once learners channel for the first time, they have to be taught.

 

I don't think Tuon's going to make it somehow.  I think she'll be a part of the half the Light of the world that Mat gives up.

[wvlr2]

Damn you all, Elayne haters. What did she ever do to you?

She was kind of a douche when she tossed poo at Mat, but that was funny, so I let that slide. Other than that, when has she made a bad decision?

 

Do you want that list in Alphabetical format or Numerical format?    To be honest Numerical is probably necessary as the other way we would have to go to double letters. ;D

[FarShainMael]

Damn you all, Elayne haters. What did she ever do to you?

She was kind of a douche when she tossed poo at Mat, but that was funny, so I let that slide. Other than that, when has she made a bad decision?

 

Do you want that list in Alphabetical format or Numerical format?    To be honest Numerical is probably necessary as the other way we would have to go to double letters. ;D

 

Support this assertion with detailed evidence.

 

[mb]

For her to manifest her ability to channel, would take a very dire situation to occur, in which her life would have to be severely in danger of ending.

That would need to happen for her to willingly channel, but there may be a chance that she becomes forced to channel if she uses the male adam on Rand.

I speculated about the male adam earlier in this thread (and in other threads).

 

[makaveli422]

How would that force her to channel? Besides I doubt that she will get the chance to collar Rand. And even if she does, it will take him all of two seconds to destroy it and her now that he knows how to defeat it. Would he want to save himself the same way again? Probably not. But would he if pushed to it again? Definitely. But any way I don't think she will channel. At all. She can yes, but she would have to knowingly do it. At this point I think she is beyond "snapping". She knows and accepts that she can channel. It would take a lot and I mean a lot of stress to do it unconsciously. We are talking about a woman who resisted Rand during a ta'veren swirl. If she can do that I don't think she can be pressured into channeling. It would betray everything she is to do so. 

[jadelollipop]

I like Tuon and hope to see the outrigger novel published someday as we know Mat and Tuon survive. I am not a disgusting person. 

[DemandredFO]

For everyone who doesn't realize it snapping is what happens to Mistings and Mistborn in Mistborn.  Now I think Fortuona might be forced to channel to save Matrim.

As for Elayne making a bad decision, in KoD she goes to arrest the BA and Shiane she only takes a few sisters with her and gets them and lots of others killed because she thinks she's immortal.  Now I like Elayne too.

[MikeRiley]

I genuinely like her, accept for her hypocrisy on this issue, and I'm curious to see how she will respond when she can no longer maintain her double standards.

 

PLEASE don't take the personal - but anyone who likes her (IMHO) is DISCUSTING!

 

Whether she can channel or not - Tuon thinks it is OK to "Collar" damane, not to mention what she does to "davonte" (sp).

 

On top of that - as you said she is a Double hypocrite - she herself can channel - "I choose not to" but she does not even pause to give others the same choice.

 

Plus she and her Seanchan are throwing the whole world into turmoil when TG is just around the corner.

 

Add to that her Superstitious gobbeldy goop that she keeps changing when it turns out to be wrong.    "Oh - she must have counted the ants wrong."    

 

And her nauseating sense of "self righteous Seanchan Empirical entitlement"

 

On top of that - She ruins Mat's character as much as Faile ruins Perrin's.   (OK you caught me - this IS the main reason that I hate them!   But that does not make the others reasons any less valid!)  (But at least Tuon is better than Queen Tylin - that really made me want to gag!)

 

There are more reasons (I’m sure) but I can’t think of them right now.

 

 

Back to the Original thread - If the Creator serves the light then Tuon will get her due.     I like the idea of her trying to Collar Rand and wearing both wrist-bands only to find that it back-fires.   Or Mat gets in trouble & she channels to save him.

 

 

EDITED to Add....  I knew that there was more .....

 

Tuon thinks that it is good for Siblings to Plot & Commit Murder of thier Siblings - as well as anyone else in their way.

 

There's a flaw in a lot of what you're saying here. You're judging her based off of our moral standards. Everything she does and thinks is based off of her own culture where it is good to collar channelers and where omens are absolutely believed. If she saw an omen and it turned out false then she must have misread it. So you basically hate the Seanchan way of life and not Tuon specifically.

[louigie15]

I am not sure if Tuon will use the power, but I do believe she is the woman in Egwene's vision of a Seanchan woman coming dow a hill or mountain to help her.  What do you think?  I haven't seen any other thought s on this other woman yet but I am new to this board.

[Aquarius]

I am not sure if Tuon will use the power, but I do believe she is the woman in Egwene's vision of a Seanchan woman coming dow a hill or mountain to help her.  What do you think?  I haven't seen any other thought s on this other woman yet but I am new to this board.

There's a looong discussion in a thread, close by. Alivia, Leilwin Shipless (a.k.a. Eaganin), and Tuon (Fortuona) beeing the 3 most probable candidates.

[wvlr2]

There's a flaw in a lot of what you're saying here. You're judging her based off of our moral standards. Everything she does and thinks is based off of her own culture where it is good to collar channelers and where omens are absolutely believed. If she saw an omen and it turned out false then she must have misread it. So you basically hate the Seanchan way of life and not Tuon specifically.

 

So you are saying that "When in Rome do as the Roman's do"?    If I should go some country that still has slavery (Accepted by society but not necessarily the government) I or anyone else should join them?   Same with chopping off hands for starving children that try to steal a scrap of food?    Child brides?    Male and female sex slaves?

 

What if my (whatever country) does something wrong and most people (cattle that they tend to be) accept it - then am I wrong in expressing my condemnation?   I think not.   Yes, I get some of my moral standards from my government, my society, parents and friends, but to not use those standards is not a betryal of you government, society or parents but a betrayal of your self.   There is not much one individual can do to change the wrongs of the world but expressing your opinion is at least a start.

 

But let me try to bring the line of thought beck to just RJ's world.

 

I think that "collering" channelers (other than criminals) is just plain foolish.

 

I know that Ishy did not invent the A'dam and that Luthor as a true son af Author was biased against channelers but I can't help but believe that the DO and his assorted agents promoted the stupidity and hid the reality (suldam can channel) in a delibrate effort to handycap the forces of Light.

 

1.   Because starting from day one with TEotW we were always told that men are strong but women are stronger because they can Link!    What does the A'dam do - it takes away the ability to link (one of the most important assets a woman channeler has).

 

2.   In addition for every two channelers (Suldam & Damane) you effectively get only one channeler.

 

For the Seanchan to effectively cut their own forces in half AND give up the asset of Linking is beyond stupid.

 

 

 

And then on the "Ants" where you said "If she saw an omen and it turned out false then she must have misread it."  

 

If it was just one occurance that would be acceptable, but if it occurs repeatedly (and it did) then you are either taking advise from someone that is incompetent or you are just trying to fool your self.

 

 

 

Edited to add:

 

Support this assertion with detailed evidence.

 

If I could only find the time I would love to take up the Challenge - not that I would do it because I hate Elayne - because I really don't.    I think that given this many books in the series a person could do the same for most of the main characters.  Even in real life people really do make a lot of mistakes and RJs characters do as well.  Some make the characters more realistic - some make them erritating.    But they are great anyway!

[MikeRiley]

There's a flaw in a lot of what you're saying here. You're judging her based off of our moral standards. Everything she does and thinks is based off of her own culture where it is good to collar channelers and where omens are absolutely believed. If she saw an omen and it turned out false then she must have misread it. So you basically hate the Seanchan way of life and not Tuon specifically.

 

So you are saying that "When in Rome do as the Roman's do"?    If I should go some country that still has slavery (Accepted by society but not necessarily the government) I or anyone else should join them?  Same with chopping off hands for starving children that try to steal a scrap of food?    Child brides?    Male and female sex slaves?

 

 

That is not at all what I'm saying. You can disagree with a way of life without having to live it yourself.

 

The rest of your post is again following the flaws I pointed out earlier. You are explaining it with an understanding of our own morals where we believe slavery to be wrong. The Seanchan do not have an understanding of our morals, they have an understanding of theirs. They believe slavery is normal and good and anybody in Seanchan would believe that. You're viewing slavery as an obstacle to overcome, and indeed it is - to us. Not to them. You won't understand that lifestyle just as they won't understand ours, but that does not make them evil any more than we are evil to them.

 

Regarding the frequent failures of Tuon's omens and her assumming she just read them wrong.. She absolutely utterly believes in these omens because of her upbringing. It's not as simple as saying "Oh, maybe omens aren't real after all!" This is something that would rock her world and her mind is wrapping around anything that could explain what went wrong.

 

Don't get me wrong, though. I think Tuon has a lot of unlikable qualities, I'd just rather see her hated because of her own individual character and not just because of where she came from.

[Sharaman]

This is heading into the realms of moral absolutism, relativism, etc.

Wiki definitions follow:

Moral absolutism is the ethical view that certain actions are absolutely right or wrong, regardless of other contexts such as their consequences or the intentions behind them.

Moral absolutism is not the same as moral universalism (also called moral objectivism  or sometimes moral realism), which holds that the same things are right and wrong for all similarly-situated people, regardless of anyone's opinions, though not necessarily regardless of context or consequences.

Moral universalism is in turn opposed to moral relativism, which holds that moral truths are relative to social, cultural, historical or personal  preferences,

and to moral nihilism (which holds that nothing is right or wrong in any sense at all).

People have been arguing these positions for several centuries across many cultures without anybody winning the debate.

WoT is not likely to affect that balance.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

I genuinely like her, accept for her hypocrisy on this issue, and I'm curious to see how she will respond when she can no longer maintain her double standards.

 

PLEASE don't take the personal - but anyone who likes her (IMHO) is DISCUSTING!

Well, I don't see how anyone could take that personally.

 

On top of that - as you said she is a Double hypocrite - she herself can channel - "I choose not to" but she does not even pause to give others the same choice.

When sparkers channelr for the first time, they have already made that choice, albeit unknowingly in most cases. Unfair, but not hypocrictical.

 

Tuon thinks that it is good for Siblings to Plot & Commit Murder of thier Siblings - as well as anyone else in their way.

Well, all families have their ups and downs. Who here hasn't tried to kill a sibling at some point?

 

moral nihilism (which holds that nothing is right or wrong in any sense at all).

Now that takes me back. Good times.

[lordofsoup]

it would be poetic justice.  anyway, you could just kidnappe her, and then force her to channel.

[mb]

How would that force her to channel? Besides I doubt that she will get the chance to collar Rand. And even if she does, it will take him all of two seconds to destroy it and her now that he knows how to defeat it. Would he want to save himself the same way again? Probably not. But would he if pushed to it again? Definitely.

Rand breaking the first one was due to the True Power.  Slight chance of Rand being 'offered' it again and slight chance of Rand taking it if it is 'offered'.

Also, Tuon's/Fortuona's treatment during the moment would likely be different than Semirhage's.  Semirhage had Rand harm someone he loves, Tuon/Fortuona probably would not.

 

Now I think Fortuona might be forced to channel to save Matrim.

That might be persuasion instead of actual forcing.

 

[Awakened]

 

Rand breaking the first one was due to the True Power.  Slight chance of Rand being 'offered' it again and slight chance of Rand taking it if it is 'offered'.

 

 

 

Assuming he got that power straight from the DO instead of Moridin.

[mb]

Rand breaking the first one was due to the True Power.  Slight chance of Rand being 'offered' it again and slight chance of Rand taking it if it is 'offered'.

Assuming he got that power straight from the DO instead of Moridin.

I implied from anyone/anything.

 

[Ashaman Kovan]

and to moral nihilism (which holds that nothing is right or wrong in any sense at all).

 

Makes me think of Brainfire Bob.

[wvlr2]

So you basically hate the Seanchan way of life and not Tuon specifically.

 

Well I was going to reference all the current trends all over the world of governments appologizing for their past actions - but really your last sentence is quite correct. 

 

 

As far as believing Omens that turn out to be wrong – there are only so many times that a person can be told and believe that the sky is purple when that person can obviously see that it is blue before the person is recognized as an idiot.

As I said before – every time she says that “Slusca must have counted wrong.”    She is logically saying that she does not trust Slusa’s ability to count.    Then if she relies on Slusa for a “reading” again then Tuon is just plain stupid.

 

Well, I don't see how anyone could take that personally.

Well I am quite glad he did not - but I am sure that he realized that it was somewhat "tongue in cheek"

besides, I never said that I was not somewhat discusting as well.

 

Just like all the other characters, although she does quite a few things that I don’t like – there are other things that I get a real kick out of.    Besides, I think that what Sluca said near the end of TGS “If we were wrong about this (Trollocs) what else might we have been wrong about.”

 

When sparkers channelr for the first time, they have already made that choice, albeit unknowingly in most cases. Unfair, but not hypocrictical.

 

No a choice implies conscious control over doing something.    Sparking is unconscious and a reflexive action - no choice involved.

 

 

Well, all families have their ups and downs. Who here hasn't tried to kill a sibling at some point?

 

Me for one.    As long as you don't count Joey.  I swear it was just a hunting acident - Really it was!

 

And of course the girls don't count do they?