Egwene's Reign (speculation & possible spoilers)

[Aquarius]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. See, I think that Egwene and the AS with her(more than half if I remeber correctly) would have been far from useless for Rand. Infact if Rand and Egwene had worked together after she became Amrylin, so many problems could have been handled much better.

Yes it would have helped Rand a lot. With rulers, with the Seanchan, etc... The question of wether that is more important than a BA-free Tower is without final answer at the moment.

 

This has probably been discussed before, but my take on it is:

- She would have lookde like Rand's puppet for all AS, and would have been removed from office very quickly

- The cost of a divided tower is probably higher than we can expect.

- 1/3 of AS only is part of the plan for TG. (1/3 in the Tower, 1/3 running around)

 

So yes, let's disagree. Theories wouldn't be fun if everybody read the books the same way.

[azrael.1289]

Yes it would have helped Rand a lot. With rulers, with the Seanchan, etc... The question of wether that is more important than a BA-free Tower is without final answer at the moment.

Don't forget with all those pressure off his shoulders, he probably wouldn't have gone insane and come within an inch of destroying the world and handing the victory to the shadow.

 

So yes, let's disagree. Theories wouldn't be fun if everybody read the books the same way.

Yeah...this is a lot of fun isn't it?  :P  ;D

 

 

[yoniy0]

First, Egwene could hardly spare Rand any stress. She wasn't appointed early enough to keep him from getting kidnapped by Elaida's agents, for example.

 

Second, the Tower isn't really clean of the BA, not in the way that matters. Suppose Leanne is sent as an emissary to the Borderlanders, and there she meets Alviarin. What is she to do? Denounce her as a DF? Even if she was inclined to reveal the existence of the BA to them, Alviarin would just respond in kind.

In short, every Black sister out there (and there are more than a hundred, even assuming Verin didn't miss anyone currently out of the Tower) is still AS in the eyes of the world. That's a big problem for Egwene.

[garion]

I am just speculating here but what if the prophecy taking about AS kneeling to the forgotten sign is actually referring to when the all AS kneel to Rand to realize that they need to change to really become the "servants of all." 

[azrael.1289]

First, Egwene could hardly spare Rand any stress. She wasn't appointed early enough to keep him from getting kidnapped by Elaida's agents, for example.

Oh come on...you can't deny Egwene's help would have smoothed out at least a few of the problems he had to face. She didn't even have to give up her plans of the WT. All she had to do was tell Rand she was the Amrylin of the SAS and they would find a way to help him and that itself would have been a relief for Rand. But no, she specifically tells the Wise ones not to tell Rand she was even the Amrylin.

[Elvira_Sedai]

I am just speculating here but what if the prophecy taking about AS kneeling to the forgotten sign is actually referring to when the all AS kneel to Rand to realize that they need to change to really become the "servants of all."  

 

 Servants of All isn't mean servants of Rand , also I think this title isn't mean serve as groom or maid way , it's another option .. In Aes Sedai case it means more priest of one power than serving somebody . Look at Novice - Accepted - Sister system  :)

 

I do agree that Egwene still have a lot to do with her whole WT , but blaming her for not contact with Rand is just not fair . Every main character has his/her own goal by RJ's thought , for example , Nyn can't command armies or Perrin can't unite Andor .. Egwene's role for Light is exactly what she does , no more , no less and we , readers , should understand and respect it  :)

 

[azrael.1289]

I do agree that Egwene still have a lot to do with her whole WT , but blaming her for not contact with Rand is just not fair .

Why not? Why is it not fair to blame Egwene for not offering her support(not service as some seem to think both are same) to a person destined to save the world especially when the said person is someone she knows well and has spent close to 20 years with?. I mean she was with him when he had to face many of the forsaken, understood the sort of pressure it was putting on him, knew the sacrifice he has to make and she still does not even offer him her support?!

[Durinax]

I do agree that Egwene still have a lot to do with her whole WT , but blaming her for not contact with Rand is just not fair .

Why not? Why is it not fair to blame Egwene for not offering her support(not service as some seem to think both are same) to a person destined to save the world especially when the said person is someone she knows well and has spent close to 20 years with?. I mean she was with him when he had to face many of the forsaken, understood the sort of pressure it was putting on him, knew the sacrifice he has to make and she still does not even offer him her support?!

not too mention she makes things alot more complicated by sending an embasy too him, instead of offering straight up support he has to negotiate with them for what he can get

[yoniy0]

She was still new to her position, and didn't posses a lot of actual power. The Hall would have reversed any such decision she might have made.

 

Don't get me wrong. Egwene is to blame for not contacting him and saying "this is where I am, this is what I know, those are my intentions, now how can we cooperate?" But really, is she the only one? The entire bunch of them (superchildren, let's call them) deserve a punch in the teeth.

 

One last thing. Egwene was with Rand since the Stone of Tear. She's seen how he treated Moiraine, and that the only way she was able to reach him was to swear fealty. You can understand why she doesn't want all of the SAS to do the same, right? So she deserves some leeway in the way she conducted herself. Now, however, she shouldn't waste any time in finding him and making sure he has what he needs (not necessarily all that he wants, mind you).

[azrael.1289]

I do agree that Egwene still have a lot to do with her whole WT , but blaming her for not contact with Rand is just not fair .

Why not? Why is it not fair to blame Egwene for not offering her support(not service as some seem to think both are same) to a person destined to save the world especially when the said person is someone she knows well and has spent close to 20 years with?. I mean she was with him when he had to face many of the forsaken, understood the sort of pressure it was putting on him, knew the sacrifice he has to make and she still does not even offer him her support?!

not too mention she makes things alot more complicated by sending an embasy too him, instead of offering straight up support he has to negotiate with them for what he can get

To be fair, the embassy was sent way before she had any control over it.

I was talking more about how in general she acts towards Rand.

 

[Durinax]

She was still new to her position, and didn't posses a lot of actual power. The Hall would have reversed any such decision she might have made.

 

Don't get me wrong. Egwene is to blame for not contacting him and saying "this is where I am, this is what I know, those are my intentions, now how can we cooperate?" But really, is she the only one? The entire bunch of them (superchildren, let's call them) deserve a punch in the teeth.

 

One last thing. Egwene was with Rand since the Stone of Tear. She's seen how he treated Moiraine, and that the only way she was able to reach him was to swear fealty. You can understand why she doesn't want all of the SAS to do the same, right? So she deserves some leeway in the way she conducted herself. Now, however, she shouldn't waste any time in finding him and making sure he has what he needs (not necessarily all that he wants, mind you).

I doubt that rand would have made them all swear to him, he only did that to moraine in order to make sure she was not trying to manipulate him. I think that if Egwene would have said we will help you in any way he would have been grateful and called upon them to help bring nations to him and even assist in destroying the forsaken.

[azrael.1289]

She was still new to her position, and didn't posses a lot of actual power. The Hall would have reversed any such decision she might have made.

 

Don't get me wrong. Egwene is to blame for not contacting him and saying "this is where I am, this is what I know, those are my intentions, now how can we cooperate?" But really, is she the only one? The entire bunch of them (superchildren, let's call them) deserve a punch in the teeth.

 

One last thing. Egwene was with Rand since the Stone of Tear. She's seen how he treated Moiraine, and that the only way she was able to reach him was to swear fealty. You can understand why she doesn't want all of the SAS to do the same, right? So she deserves some leeway in the way she conducted herself. Now, however, she shouldn't waste any time in finding him and making sure he has what he needs (not necessarily all that he wants, mind you).

You can't really compare Egwene and  Moiraine. One was a total stranger who has tried to manipulate him from the first time she saw him, the other a person he grew up with, even loved for a long time. Do you really think he would have asked Egwene to kneel before him and swear fealty had she offered her help?

 

How can you expect any AS to respect, trust and help Rand if a person he grew up with and knows him very well doesn't do it?If Egwene herself doesn't trust and respect him who could really blame Elaida's(who has no idea who Rand is and who hates men who can channel) attitude towards Rand?

[Eht Slat Meit]

The prophecy mentions events leading up to TG, not what role the WT plays in it. No where in the prophecy says anything about the WT being important for Rand to win TG.

 

So you honestly believe that Rand can win it all by himself, simply because there's nothing in the prophecies saying that he needs -anyone else- to win TG? That the prophecies are nothing more than random descriptions of things that will happen, not things that must happen for him to win?

 

They after all this are still not even prepared to trust him. How will they help him let alone serve him without changing that attitude?

 

That's Egwene's job.

 

I think she could have had she tried. My gripe is she did not even think about it. It's like one second she wants AS to help Rand before she became Amrylin and then the next when she is Amrylin, she almost forgets about everything else and puts all her and the SAS's efforts into something that she had no idea at that point would even be helpful to Rand.

 

You know, I've been forgetting to address this point, and I'll take care of that here: There is absolutely -no- reason for her to approach Rand and give him her assurances. They already have a mutual understanding, one that was passingly mentioned, Rand indicated that Egwene's rebels had Rand's support. I don't believe he would stupidly and blindly give that faith. As you've said, they know each other from back into childhood, and even though she's become Aes Sedai, he knows that he needs the Tower and that his chances are better with Egwene than Elaida.

 

Think about it. When was the last time Rand worried over whether he'd have the Tower's support?

[Elvira_Sedai]

 WHY so many here think that Rand needs to unite nation for the DO's defeat ?? It makes me confused ... Whe whole series strongly suggest that the more freedom and less weigth on his shoulders Rand will have , the finer will be his health and less difficult for him will be regrowing the DO'd prison . The world politics isn't his goal , Egwene is one of those , who can take responsibilty for it , she shouldn't remake it to Rand impressing him AS support , no .. she should just do what should the Amyrlin do and THAT would help Rand and the Light more than any submissive action .

[azrael.1289]

 WHY so many here think that Rand needs to unite nation for the DO's defeat ?? It makes me confused ... Whe whole series strongly suggest that the more freedom and less weigth on his shoulders Rand will have , the finer will be his health and less difficult for him will be regrowing the DO'd prison . The world politics isn't his goal , Egwene is one of those , who can take responsibilty for it , she shouldn't remake it to Rand impressing him AS support , no .. she should just do what should the Amyrlin do and THAT would help Rand and the Light more than any submissive action .

Why is EVERYONE assuming her respecting him and offering him her SUPPORT a SUBMISSIVE action? In what way shape or form is that submissive really?

 

Sorry if I came across as rude it's just that everytime I mention Egwene should have helped Rand, the first defence they come up with is Egwene need not be submissive as if they are both related.

 

Someone needs to unite the world to stand agaist the shadow. When the most obvious choice(WT) is not doing it, who better than the man born to face the shadow? I totally agree that politics are not for him , but what choice did he have?

[Durinax]

 WHY so many here think that Rand needs to unite nation for the DO's defeat ?? It makes me confused ... Whe whole series strongly suggest that the more freedom and less weigth on his shoulders Rand will have , the finer will be his health and less difficult for him will be regrowing the DO'd prison . The world politics isn't his goal , Egwene is one of those , who can take responsibilty for it , she shouldn't remake it to Rand impressing him AS support , no .. she should just do what should the Amyrlin do and THAT would help Rand and the Light more than any submissive action .

I think rand has to unite the nations so he has armies to face the trolloc hordes, and alot of myrrdral and such. Plus if he has them united he does not have to leave a large amount of soldiers to defend those cities and can instead use them at the battle fronts

[azrael.1289]

So you honestly believe that Rand can win it all by himself, simply because there's nothing in the prophecies saying that he needs -anyone else- to win TG? That the prophecies are nothing more than random descriptions of things that will happen, not things that must happen for him to win?

No, I don't expect him to fight alone, but he is hardly alone at this point. The question I originally asked was what possible role can the WT play now if Rand gains Seanchan support.

 

That's Egwene's job.

Exactly my point! When she herself doesn't respect, trust him, how can she hope to tell others to do it?

 

You know, I've been forgetting to address this point, and I'll take care of that here: There is absolutely -no- reason for her to approach Rand and give him her assurances. They already have a mutual understanding, one that was passingly mentioned, Rand indicated that Egwene's rebels had Rand's support. I don't believe he would stupidly and blindly give that faith. As you've said, they know each other from back into childhood, and even though she's become Aes Sedai, he knows that he needs the Tower and that his chances are better with Egwene than Elaida.

 

Think about it. When was the last time Rand worried over whether he'd have the Tower's support?

Egwene had all the reason to assure him. She knew all the things he's going through. Instead of assuring him that she has got atleast one of his worries taken care of, she keeps mum.

Rand worries about AS every couple of pages. If Egwene had helped him, his attitude towards AS would have been different IMHO.

 

[Dreamwalker]

The prophecy mentions events leading up to TG, not what role the WT plays in it. No where in the prophecy says anything about the WT being important for Rand to win TG.

 

The Aiel prophecy says, "Under this sign he will conquer." I'm pretty sure this doesn't just mean the banner Rand has been carrying around with him, but that it means he needs to unite all the male and female channelers (i.e. WT and BT). To unite all the channelers, means we need a whole WT. This interpretation also fits nicely with the Karaethon cycle "The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign." Meaning that the WT has to ally with the BT, and I don't think that would happen with a broken WT, especially not since the BT is also pretty messed up right now so the AS might have to be strong enough to do something about Taim.

[azrael.1289]

The prophecy mentions events leading up to TG, not what role the WT plays in it. No where in the prophecy says anything about the WT being important for Rand to win TG.

 

The Aiel prophecy says, "Under this sign he will conquer." I'm pretty sure this doesn't just mean the banner Rand has been carrying around with him, but that it means he needs to unite all the male and female channelers (i.e. WT and BT). To unite all the channelers, means we need a whole WT. This interpretation also fits nicely with the Karaethon cycle "The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign." Meaning that the WT has to ally with the BT, and I don't think that would happen with a broken WT, especially not since the BT is also pretty messed up right now so the AS might have to be strong enough to do something about Taim.

Okay...I agree with that.

But none of this were Egwene's motivations for uniting the tower. Unless you are suggesting it was the pattern's tug that led her that way, I don't see how it's relevant to our discussion  :P

[DemandredFO]

We don't know all the prophecies, we have lots of bits and pieces but it's not like we have a book or something with the whole prophecy written down.  Another point, Moiraine swore fealty to Rand and as far as I can tell he didn't abuse it.  We didn't see him tell her to "clean my clothes or clean the lutrines" or the like.  I think Egwene and Rand could've gotten over the issues that started to develop in tSR but she only did Moiraine's bidding then.  Also Rand is forced to conquer because Aes Sedai aren't doing their jobs, including Egwene's lot or they try to undermine him.  Not saying Rand is saint but he has no idea what he's doing, while Egwene, who is tutored by AS, Wise Ones, is a dreamer and a powerful AS know what her order is supposed to do.  It's your basic failure to communicate, by ALL parties, and making ASSumptions on little or no evidence.

[Durinax]

We don't know all the prophecies, we have lots of bits and pieces but it's not like we have a book or something with the whole prophecy written down.  Another point, Moiraine swore fealty to Rand and as far as I can tell he didn't abuse it.  We didn't see him tell her to "clean my clothes or clean the lutrines" or the like.  I think Egwene and Rand could've gotten over the issues that started to develop in tSR but she only did Moiraine's bidding then.  Also Rand is forced to conquer because Aes Sedai aren't doing their jobs, including Egwene's lot or they try to undermine him.  Not saying Rand is saint but he has no idea what he's doing, while Egwene, who is tutored by AS, Wise Ones, is a dreamer and a powerful AS know what her order is supposed to do.  It's your basic failure to communicate, by ALL parties, and making ASSumptions on little or no evidence.

well I think rand has been doing what he has to do, he has been trying to fight the forsaken thats all. And the places he conquests tend to be a former stronghold of a forsaken. If the AS supported him and had a huge summit things would have gone a lot smoother. But for all the 'testing' the AS do they are rather weak willed, they dont do their jobs when it comes to helping the dragon from fear, and we have seen many AS get intimidated and forced to do what others want. . .

[Dreamwalker]

The prophecy mentions events leading up to TG, not what role the WT plays in it. No where in the prophecy says anything about the WT being important for Rand to win TG.

 

The Aiel prophecy says, "Under this sign he will conquer." I'm pretty sure this doesn't just mean the banner Rand has been carrying around with him, but that it means he needs to unite all the male and female channelers (i.e. WT and BT). To unite all the channelers, means we need a whole WT. This interpretation also fits nicely with the Karaethon cycle "The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign." Meaning that the WT has to ally with the BT, and I don't think that would happen with a broken WT, especially not since the BT is also pretty messed up right now so the AS might have to be strong enough to do something about Taim.

Okay...I agree with that.

But none of this were Egwene's motivations for uniting the tower. Unless you are suggesting it was the pattern's tug that led her that way, I don't see how it's relevant to our discussion  :P

I pulled out those prophecies since you said there weren't any prophecies about the WT being important for TG. I was just saying that no, there are.

 

As for Egwene's motivations: I'm of the view that Egwene is right in thinking that she needs to unite the tower before TG. Her reasoning is probably more of "We (the AS) won't be able to face TG unless we present a united front" but I was trying to use the prophecies to say that even with the extra info we have as readers her reasoning still has validity.

[Durinax]

The prophecy mentions events leading up to TG, not what role the WT plays in it. No where in the prophecy says anything about the WT being important for Rand to win TG.

 

The Aiel prophecy says, "Under this sign he will conquer." I'm pretty sure this doesn't just mean the banner Rand has been carrying around with him, but that it means he needs to unite all the male and female channelers (i.e. WT and BT). To unite all the channelers, means we need a whole WT. This interpretation also fits nicely with the Karaethon cycle "The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign." Meaning that the WT has to ally with the BT, and I don't think that would happen with a broken WT, especially not since the BT is also pretty messed up right now so the AS might have to be strong enough to do something about Taim.

Okay...I agree with that.

But none of this were Egwene's motivations for uniting the tower. Unless you are suggesting it was the pattern's tug that led her that way, I don't see how it's relevant to our discussion  :P

I pulled out those prophecies since you said there weren't any prophecies about the WT being important for TG. I was just saying that no, there are.

 

As for Egwene's motivations: I'm of the view that Egwene is right in thinking that she needs to unite the tower before TG. Her reasoning is probably more of "We (the AS) won't be able to face TG unless we present a united front" but I was trying to use the prophecies to say that even with the extra info we have as readers her reasoning still has validity.

she does have a valid reason for wanting the tower to be of one piece, the fact that her training says it needs to be. The problem I have is that she was like perrin in doing so, her actions basically said (to me at least) the world can burn but I am going to unite this thing

[thewalrus777]

The prophecy mentions events leading up to TG, not what role the WT plays in it. No where in the prophecy says anything about the WT being important for Rand to win TG.

 

The Aiel prophecy says, "Under this sign he will conquer." I'm pretty sure this doesn't just mean the banner Rand has been carrying around with him, but that it means he needs to unite all the male and female channelers (i.e. WT and BT). To unite all the channelers, means we need a whole WT. This interpretation also fits nicely with the Karaethon cycle "The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign." Meaning that the WT has to ally with the BT, and I don't think that would happen with a broken WT, especially not since the BT is also pretty messed up right now so the AS might have to be strong enough to do something about Taim.

Okay...I agree with that.

But none of this were Egwene's motivations for uniting the tower. Unless you are suggesting it was the pattern's tug that led her that way, I don't see how it's relevant to our discussion  :P

I pulled out those prophecies since you said there weren't any prophecies about the WT being important for TG. I was just saying that no, there are.

 

As for Egwene's motivations: I'm of the view that Egwene is right in thinking that she needs to unite the tower before TG. Her reasoning is probably more of "We (the AS) won't be able to face TG unless we present a united front" but I was trying to use the prophecies to say that even with the extra info we have as readers her reasoning still has validity.

she does have a valid reason for wanting the tower to be of one piece, the fact that her training says it needs to be. The problem I have is that she was like perrin in doing so, her actions basically said (to me at least) the world can burn but I am going to unite this thing

 

But see her reasons for having that attitude are validated, unlike Perrin's whose reasons were spurned out of selfishness. Egweene does whatever it takes to make the WT whole because it needs to be whole again for TG. She may not be aware of the fact that Rand will eventually come to rule both channeling factions, according to Aiel prophecy. But still the Tower needed to be 100% healed to be successful at TG.

[yoniy0]

Yes, her reasoning was clear in KoD. She knows the Last Battle is coming, and that a lot of work remains to be done before that happens. She picked the Tower as the place she would strart from. Her motivation is the Light's victory at TG, and her method is first uniting the Tower.

 

BTW I think you guys are fooling yourselves if you believe Rand wouldn't be suspicious towards Egwene should she approach him. For him, she's the girl who's been bugging him forever, always thinking she knows best what he's to do, and lately she (kind of) 'betrayed' him by becoming an AS through and through (he comments at times on how he can no longer completely trust her). If anything, she would be harder for him to trust than Moiraine. Note that he once said he would only trust Nynaeve for Linking (my take is he discounted Elayne and Aviendha because he didn't want to put any of them in harm's way).

 

Of course, it's as much Egwene's fault as it is his, for not 'kindling that trust' (I borrowed that one from Egwene).