Epiphany! The Prophecies of the Dragon, and how Rand survives TG!

[mellojoe]

Ok.  I had a thought suddenly.  I may be way off, but...

 

"The blood of the Dragon Reborn on the rocks of Shayol Ghul will free mankind from the Shadow. "

 

We know this bit gets repeated over and over, from which Rand deduces that he will have to die at TG to free the world.  His death is inevitable.

 

But, wait!  What if we are reading it incorrectly.

 

It is not the "Dragon Reborn", but it should be the "Dragon being reborn".  See?

 

"The blood of the Dragon, reborn on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, will free mankind from the Shadow."

 

Rand will have to be "reborn" somehow at TG.  Maybe he gets stilled/severed.  Maybe he gets Healed.  Maybe not.  I don't know.  That's not the point.  The point is, the Prophecies could be interpreted that he doesn't die.  He doesn't have to die.  It just says "reborn".  It could be spiritual, emotional, or economical for all we know.

 

I just thought it was interesting that a different emphasis could change the Prophecy entirely.  The people of Randland have  been so trained to see "Dragon Reborn" as a name, that they may have missed that it is a verb.

 

Thoughts? 

 

[redarm]

Rand is not the Dragon.  He is the Dragon Reborn.  LTT was the Dragon. To read into it the way you have would mean it would be LTT reborn on the slopes, not Rand.  The Dragon and the Dragon Reborn are two different people.  Now if it said The Dragon Reborn Reborn on the.... got it? :-\

[Malruhn]

The problem is that the Dragon has been "Reborn" many times.  The Prophecies were written AFTER The "Dragon" died... and were written with that in mind - the next "dragon" would have to be, by default, the Dragon "Reborn."

 

And to bring more mud into the thought process, just where does it say that he has to DIE??

 

Arbitrarily, if mellojoe is from Seattle, and go to his house and poke him in the finger with a pin, I can easily say that "The blood of mellojoe on the shores of Seeah Tull will free mankind from the Shadow."  Did mellojoe die?  Nope - but his blood was spilled exactly where the Prophecy said it would.

 

There is a group of conspiracy theorists and quasi-religious scholars that believe that Jesus didn't die on the cross... that he "fulfilled the prophecy" and then was spirited away to Europe to be with his wife (Mary Magdalene) and kid(s).  The theory goes that the entire thing was a set-up.  Sure, he was betrayed (by a loyal follower - NOT a turncoat/darkfriend), beaten, scourged, and tortured.  He was nailed to a cross (in direct contradiction of Roman law at the time), and then released to a non-family member(in direct contradiction of Roman law at the time).  He was then "buried" in a tomb (illegally), of a very rich man (who, amazingly, was a secret follower of Jesus), and then miraculously woke up three days later.

 

If Rand were to set it up with Perrin (Mat's always in trouble so his conviction would be doubted) to "betray" him to the Dark One - and at the last minute, rally and destroy the DO while APPEARING to die on the rocks of Shayol Ghul - Perrin would be believed (look at what he did in Crown of Swords - he was used as a ruse).

 

Rand could end up retiring on a little farm with sheep and a crop of tabac and perhaps give the Seanchan spear-tip to his son one day.

 

I don't think he dies.

[delathi]

I don't think he dies either, another interpretation is that "The Blood of the Dragon Reborn" does not refer to the red fluid inside his body, but to Galad, who, as Rand's half brother, is technically "The Blood of the Dragon Reborn"

 

 

 

 

[Malruhn]

WAITAMINUTE!!!

 

By default - isn't Slayer also a relative as well?  He is a mix of Lan's cousin and Rand's uncle...

 

But Galad would work!!  Besides, his heart is "pure" which makes it that much more poignant!

 

Great idea!  We may save him yet!!

[Eht Slat Meit]

I've seen this idea put out before, I think, but Malruhn's post reminds me of it, and makes me wonder: What is it that makes someone the Dragon Reborn? Some sort of supernatural force embodied by the traits they possess? There is always a Dragon Reborn to fight the Shadow, even if the.... host? dies. Perhaps the release of that force is key to defeating the Shadow.

 

Herid Fel said something about how it couldn't be the Last Battle, that Ages come and go and come again per the catechism, but never finished the thought. Perhaps it's not the last Battle between good and evil, but between Dragon and Shadow?

[Entretamis]

 

By default - isn't Slayer also a relative as well?  He is a mix of Lan's cousin and Rand's uncle...

 

when does slayer first show in the series? is it book 4?  i dont ever seeing this point made on the forums, could this be the big unnoticed fact?

not that he is rand uncle we know what, but that his (slayers) blood will spill on SG. Maybe he follows fain to SG and fain kills him there or something.

[Crael123]

The problem is that the Dragon has been "Reborn" many times.  The Prophecies were written AFTER The "Dragon" died... and were written with that in mind - the next "dragon" would have to be, by default, the Dragon "Reborn."

 

And to bring more mud into the thought process, just where does it say that he has to DIE??

 

Arbitrarily, if mellojoe is from Seattle, and go to his house and poke him in the finger with a pin, I can easily say that "The blood of mellojoe on the shores of Seeah Tull will free mankind from the Shadow."  Did mellojoe die?  Nope - but his blood was spilled exactly where the Prophecy said it would.

 

There is a group of conspiracy theorists and quasi-religious scholars that believe that Jesus didn't die on the cross... that he "fulfilled the prophecy" and then was spirited away to Europe to be with his wife (Mary Magdalene) and kid(s).  The theory goes that the entire thing was a set-up.  Sure, he was betrayed (by a loyal follower - NOT a turncoat/darkfriend), beaten, scourged, and tortured.  He was nailed to a cross (in direct contradiction of Roman law at the time), and then released to a non-family member(in direct contradiction of Roman law at the time).  He was then "buried" in a tomb (illegally), of a very rich man (who, amazingly, was a secret follower of Jesus), and then miraculously woke up three days later.

 

If Rand were to set it up with Perrin (Mat's always in trouble so his conviction would be doubted) to "betray" him to the Dark One - and at the last minute, rally and destroy the DO while APPEARING to die on the rocks of Shayol Ghul - Perrin would be believed (look at what he did in Crown of Swords - he was used as a ruse).

 

Rand could end up retiring on a little farm with sheep and a crop of tabac and perhaps give the Seanchan spear-tip to his son one day.

 

I don't think he dies.

 

Jesus did die on the cross buddy for your sins and mine.

[Sandmanbm]

I also don't think this automatically means he dies. 'His blood' doesn't mean he dies, just that he will bleed.

[mb]

Dragon Reborn Chapter 5:

The blood of the Dragon Reborn on the rocks of Shayol Ghul will free mankind from the Shadow.

That seems to be a paraphrase of another prophecy:

Shadow Rising Chapter 3:

His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man's salvation.

 

Both seem to indicate that Rand would suffer at that location, not be reborn at that moment; nor any blood relative being the one.

 

[MikeRiley]

I always liked the idea of his blood meaning the Aiel and that would be where they were broken and only a remnant of a remnant saved.

 

After the battle his death would be faked so he could go into retirement. Logain would take up leading at the Black Tower - the vision of him stepping over the corpse and it collapsing to show it was made of paper. Of course that doesn't really tie in very well with that Seanchan helping him die. Maybe his death would be faked first and Logain really would get the credit for the Last Battle, but I can't see that tricking the Lord of the Grave.

[Nightstrike]

"How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"

"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

He will survive the Last Battle, if he manages to fulfill the conditions they mentioned. I think he will do that.

 

("The two" are probably Rand & Moridin.)

 

[rubbernilly]

Any possibility that Ishamael just... tweaked... that particular prophecy down through the Ages?

 

Someone suggested elsewhere that Ishamael had twisted the Seanchan prophecies (specifically regarding the Dragon kneeling before the Crystal Throne), so why not this one, too?

 

Mistborn Spoiler...

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

 

That would be a very Ruin thing to do.

 

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

 

End Spoiler

 

Don't know if I would like that explanation, however... what with how that prophecy has been leaned on through the books.

[Nightstrike]

That was the finn's answer.

[Talmanes]

There is a lot of speculation on this in the TGS spoilers board if you have read the book.

[MikeRiley]

I think it would be a big mistake to take any of the prophecies literally. So far they have been sort of red herrings. Worded in such a way that we are thrown way off course, so when the prophecy is fulfilled we're left wondering how we didn't see it before. Like a riddle, you view it one way and lose the alternate meaning hidden within it.

[Agitel]

Rand is not the Dragon.  He is the Dragon Reborn.  LTT was the Dragon. To read into it the way you have would mean it would be LTT reborn on the slopes, not Rand.  The Dragon and the Dragon Reborn are two different people.  Now if it said The Dragon Reborn Reborn on the.... got it? :-\

 

No one's corrected this yet? Rand IS LTT reborn. His soul is LTT's soul.

[OptimusPrime]

Also there is the "twice dawns the day his blood his shed, once for mourning, once for birth."

 

I think Rand is going to be reborn straight away, not come back to life. And it will dissapoint me-I want Rand alive at the end remembering everything.

[MikeRiley]

Birth in this case could mean salvation. It doesn't have to mean quite literally he's going to be born again.

[Nightstrike]

"How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"

"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

He will survive the Last Battle, if he manages to fulfill the conditions they mentioned. I think he will do that.

 

("The two" are probably Rand & Moridin.)

 

Everybody gets reborn, but they are no longer the same person as they once were. He asked how he could survive.

[MikeRiley]

"The two must be as one." Might refer to linking with female Aes Sedai so one person is directing both halves of the source. It would fit with Lews Therin's attempt at sealing the bore and why the sealing failed. Wouldn't it be great if all this time it was the women who were at fault for the breaking?

[Durinax]

well that quote seems pretty straight forward, but I guess you could be right

 

The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one..

                        1            +                        1            =      2

[OptimusPrime]

Birth in this case could mean salvation. It doesn't have to mean quite literally he's going to be born again.

 

True. It could also refer to the birth of one or more of his children.

[MikeRiley]

Birth in this case could mean salvation. It doesn't have to mean quite literally he's going to be born again.

 

True. It could also refer to the birth of one or more of his children.

 

I can see that. Elayne fuming at being left behind because she's due soon, she comes on some hidden knowledge, or is just fuming at being left behind. Rand starts to lose his fight with Shaidar Haran (been a while, pretty sure that's the super Fade), then Elayne shows up with that dagger that makes it so shadowspawn can't see her and pulls a Peregrin Took distracting the fade so Rand can deal the killing blow. We would just need Rand to say "No woman am I!"

[redarm]

Rand is not the Dragon.  He is the Dragon Reborn.  LTT was the Dragon. To read into it the way you have would mean it would be LTT reborn on the slopes, not Rand.  The Dragon and the Dragon Reborn are two different people.  Now if it said The Dragon Reborn Reborn on the.... got it? :-\

 

No one's corrected this yet? Rand IS LTT reborn. His soul is LTT's soul.

 

What's to correct?  Rand isLTT reborn.  LTT was the Dragon.  Therefore, Rand is the Dragon Reborn.  You just restated what I said.  ???