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A Way to Evade the Oaths (Full Spoilers)


Luckers

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Why, if her BA army has been destroyed, would she stay?  I know she did cause we were told she did, but why?  If she tries any solo stuff she runs an even greater risk of getting dead than she did before.  Her best bet would be to not be there right now.

 

Sorry, I know that was off-topic, but it has been bothering me.  I've decided how I'm going to figure out how she's able to beat the rod...I'm gonna RAFO.  ;D

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I agree with you 100%. This is the simplest way for her to escape the purge, and by Occam's razor, I'd say that's what happened. Also from her standpoint the simplest plan is the least likely to have something go wrong - the weird weave/fake hand/compulsion theories all have ways they could very easily have exposed her.

 

Further, I'd like to ask when do you think Mesaana learned about the purge? She couldn't have had more than 24 hours notice, and I'm inclined to think maybe even less than that, so whatever she did she didn't have long to prepare for it.

 

One more problem with this was that Egwene was actively looking for Mesaana.  It seems risky of her to risk discovery by hoping no one asks her to directly say "I do not serve the Dark One," or some other variation where she can't skirt by on a technicality.  And you cite Occam's Razor, but your simplest explanation requires her to be actually bound by the Oaths, so, again, she has to find a way to remove and reswear any applicable Oaths to the DO.  It becomes more complicated than for her to simply avoid the effects of the Oaths in the first place.

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Think of it from respective PoVs.

Egwene doesn't have the info we do; On the basis of what she's done and the discrepancies in the lists she's compiled, Verin didn't have enough info for Egwene to directly nail Messi. She's still got to work it out, or get lucky.

 

Messi may not know Egwene is hunting for her directly - she may or may not know that Sheriam blabbed. She knows that Egwene is purging BA. If Messi isn't BA, and we have reason to believe she isn't, Messi may be arrogant enough to doubt she'll be found. Especially if she knows a way to beat the OR - as she seems to have done.

 

Messi has orders from Superfade and Moridin to get things done within the AS. She might consider the (relatively slight as she sees it) risk of being found and executed (with possible rebirth thrown in), rather less alarming than the prospect of another quiet chat with Shaidar Haran. If she runs away, the Hand of GLoD is unlikely to be happy.

 

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My two favorite theories:

 

1)  Using a proxy to take the Oaths for her.  If she's posing as Danelle (most likely), Danelle is still alive, so she Compels her to go in and swear the Oaths for her, then return.  After that she goes back to impersonating her.

 

2)  Combining inverted Air and Mask of Mirrors so that you're not actually touching the rod, therefore, the effects don't settle on you.

 

I agree, and think most arguments have already been posted. So I'll simply argue your case.

 

The most important assumption (perhaps fact) is that Mesaana does not have an ageless face. This alone implies that (A) she currently is not bound to the OR, and (B) must use an [inverted] MoM regardless. The "proof" for this is when SH dispels the MoM and Alviarin thinks she's familiar, but can't put a name to her.

 

The second most important assumption is that she wants to avoid binding herself, which would be an inconvenience at best. Like others have stated, the Forsaken fear being bound by the OR, there is no simple way to bypass it. Linguistic tricks after being bound is a moot point, the Aes Sedai of today are probably more experienced than the Forsaken when it comes to bending the three oaths.

 

Thus I conclude that (2) is the most likely. In fact, she may just wear simple normal cloth gloves beneath the MoM, if the OR is required to touch skin. Finally, if she doesn't have time to prepare normal gloves, or inverted air gloves, she can use reversed weaves to make air gloves on the fly.

 

Some think this solution is too simple, but it really isn't, inverting / reversing is something Aes Sedai haven't been able to do for thousands (?) of years.

 

Another objection is that this couldn't possibly have worked in the AoL, but saying so implies that inverted / reversed weaves couldn't be detected in the AoL. When in fact we've seen it done in the present. Nynaeve detected Semirhage's masked channeling, and Cadsuane then disrupted her MoM. Both by ter'angreal.

 

Now if (2) still isn't possible because of how the OR functions, that leaves us (1). She may have "stored" the one she's impersonating. If not Compel someone else, cast MoM and then hide during the oath swearing and kill her later.

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The problem is that if this is the solution, Mesaana is forced to (presumably) forswear all of her previous oaths, and then swear the three oaths once again.  It seems a bit problematic for one of the Forsaken to be bound not to lie, not to make weapons, and not to use the OP as a weapon.  This is counting on her then finding the OR again later (not a sure thing since Egwene has decided to hide several of the power-related items following the Seanchan raid), or using some T'a'R trick to get the Oaths removed-unless she's stumbled upon her own binder as Sammael did.

 

At that point, this solution becomes a lot less simple since she's got to follow and get the Oaths removed, and reswear to the DO in order to retain his blessing.

Mesaana being 'forced' I think is what happened.

The 3 Oaths to me are not incompatible to the oath to the Dark One.  (2nd oath I take to be 'weapons that kill', not necessarily any weapon.)

 

She might have re-sworn to the Dark One afterward, but I believe that she was bound to the 3 Oaths when she said that she was not a Darkfriend.

 

 

I doubt she got another to swear for her since according to Cooper's timeline the White Tower's purging was within a day of the rebel camp's purging.

And being watched by at least one non-black would have prevented her from doing any channeling tricks.

 

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The proxy idea seems like a perfect solution, but then again...  Keeping the Aes Sedai she has replaced around for years seems very unlikely to me without a compelling reason--it increases her risk of being exposed, so there must be some benefit that more than compensates for that increased risk.  Planning for a purge she can't have anticipated far in advance doesn't fit the bill of a compelling reason.  My expectation would be that whoever she's impersonating has been lying in a shallow grave for a very long time.

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The proxy idea seems like a perfect solution, but then again...  Keeping the Aes Sedai she has replaced around for years seems very unlikely to me without a compelling reason--it increases her risk of being exposed, so there must be some benefit that more than compensates for that increased risk.  Planning for a purge she can't have anticipated far in advance doesn't fit the bill of a compelling reason.  My expectation would be that whoever she's impersonating has been lying in a shallow grave for a very long time.

 

Yes, it might be a too convenient for her to still have Danelle (or whoever) around after all this time.  The only reason I can think of is that she's used her like this before-that is, to make sure Danelle (or whoever) is still present in the Tower when she's out Traveling to do the DO's work.  But it seems like she doesn't really leave the Tower that often-she didn't even show up at Shadar Logoth.

 

Mesaana's been one of the more impressive Forsaken, to this point, so whatever the trick is, I just hope it's clever.

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I hope she hasnt been masquerading as anyoen at all, I would be impressed if she just gave that impression, but instead used proxies to keep everyone guessing while safely in the deeper dungeons of the tower

 

There's just too much evidence that she is masquerading as a sister.

 

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The proxy wouldn't have to be Danelle, she would just have to claim any friendless Aes Sedai who have sworn already, and assume that identity. She must have had some kind of plan for what to do if her first cover was discovered, somehow.

 

Also, are we sure that she'd be able to reverse Air gloves on the fly, just like that? I'd say she'd have to carefully prepare them, so that they as thin as possible and move perfectly with her fingers and hands, since there cannot be ANY hint for anyone else that she's doing something strange. Doesn't feel like something you'd want to attempt unprepared, unless it's the last resort possible.

 

And I agree that she has to have been masquerading as someone. Hiding in some dungeon doesn't seem very comfortable, and not practical, as she wouldn't be able to move around the Tower at all.

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I think maybe it is something she does after the fact. We all know how she gets around the First Oath (She is forsaken), but to get by the Rod completely, my guess is that she had to go do something else after.

 

Kill a baby seal and sacrifice it or something...

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I think maybe it is something she does after the fact. We all know how she gets around the First Oath (She is forsaken), but to get by the Rod completely, my guess is that she had to go do something else after.

 

Kill a baby seal and sacrifice it or something...

 

It's easy (though painful) for her to get rid of the Oaths after the fact:

1) Create an Oath Rod in T'A'R and remove the oaths on it

2) Steal the Oath Rod and remove the oaths on it

3) The Dark One can remove Oath rod oaths apparently (as all the BA do it) ... Probably the most painful method I'd guess.

 

The part everyone's arguing about is how she evades detection at the actual reswearing.

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The proxy wouldn't have to be Danelle, she would just have to claim any friendless Aes Sedai who have sworn already, and assume that identity. She must have had some kind of plan for what to do if her first cover was discovered, somehow.

 

Also, are we sure that she'd be able to reverse Air gloves on the fly, just like that? I'd say she'd have to carefully prepare them, so that they as thin as possible and move perfectly with her fingers and hands, since there cannot be ANY hint for anyone else that she's doing something strange. Doesn't feel like something you'd want to attempt unprepared, unless it's the last resort possible.

 

And I agree that she has to have been masquerading as someone. Hiding in some dungeon doesn't seem very comfortable, and not practical, as she wouldn't be able to move around the Tower at all. ust has to use that to shift the location of her hand to cover up the fact that it's Air which is hold

 

Well if she's using Mask of Mirrors in conjunction with inverted Air weaves, she jing the Rod.  It's still delicate, doing two things in concert, but combined they should convincingly mask what she's doing.

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I'm pretty sure she wasn't at the reswearing or whatever.  1.  Mesaana is on Shaitan's shit list, I seriously doubt she'd be allowed to swear(even temporarilly) to the Aes Sedai.  2&3.  The foresaken hate AS and as someone said the foresaken hate the binders; Semirahague went to the SHADOW to avoid the binder.  As for Mesaana's impersonatee being long dead, remember Demandred was of their triumerate, being a General I could see him saying save her until this war is over.

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I think maybe it is something she does after the fact. We all know how she gets around the First Oath (She is forsaken), but to get by the Rod completely, my guess is that she had to go do something else after.

 

Kill a baby seal and sacrifice it or something...

 

It's easy (though painful) for her to get rid of the Oaths after the fact:

1) Create an Oath Rod in T'A'R and remove the oaths on it

2) Steal the Oath Rod and remove the oaths on it

3) The Dark One can remove Oath rod oaths apparently (as all the BA do it) ... Probably the most painful method I'd guess.

 

The part everyone's arguing about is how she evades detection at the actual reswearing.

 

You still don't get it (or at least how I see it). Sanderson hinted that there is a way for anyone to get around the Rod.

 

#1 isn't a sure thing.

#2 & #3 are obvious.

There is another way.

 

I am talking about that. This thread is about how to evade the Oaths by overcoming the Rod in some way.

She didn't not take the Oaths.

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I think maybe it is something she does after the fact. We all know how she gets around the First Oath (She is forsaken), but to get by the Rod completely, my guess is that she had to go do something else after.

 

Kill a baby seal and sacrifice it or something...

 

It's easy (though painful) for her to get rid of the Oaths after the fact:

1) Create an Oath Rod in T'A'R and remove the oaths on it

2) Steal the Oath Rod and remove the oaths on it

3) The Dark One can remove Oath rod oaths apparently (as all the BA do it) ... Probably the most painful method I'd guess.

 

The part everyone's arguing about is how she evades detection at the actual reswearing.

 

You still don't get it (or at least how I see it). Sanderson hinted that there is a way for anyone to get around the Rod.

 

#1 isn't a sure thing.

#2 & #3 are obvious.

There is another way.

 

I am talking about that. This thread is about how to evade the Oaths by overcoming the Rod in some way.

She didn't not take the Oaths.

 

I think we're actually pretty much on the same side in this argument in that I have also been advocating (and I think you are too) that she did indeed swear the oaths, and that she got around the first one because she is  Chosen/Forsaken, not a darkfriend or BA. That's what most people have been arguing about on the thread (i.e. whether or not that would work to evade the first oath and whether or not she even took the oaths).

 

So we both think she has to do something after swearing to evade the last two. I personally think she'd just remove them, but I think you're saying you think there's a different way around them? I'm just trying to clarify your position, because I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

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Dreamwalker, I am saying there is another way besides physically removing them with another Rod (#1 & #2). #3 is only for BA and those special people.

The reason I believe this is because that the quote implies anyone can get around the Rod.

 

Stefan, we have already stated this. We are trying to find that way.

 

Just posting the quote again. Because I can. :P

 

3. Question: She could swear that she’s not a Darkfriend on the Oath Rod, right?

 

3. Answer: As long as she believed it to be true.  Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the three oaths.  You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod.  There is a way to do it.

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Perhaps Mesanna stuttered "I swear I am notnotnotnot a darkfriend!"

 

Look for the Aes Sedai with a speech impediment, and there's your culprit!

I doubt Mesaana stuttered.  I take her wording was not any different than other Aes Sedia.

And a speech impediment would not necessarily reveal her.  Even Light-sided Aes Sedia might have one.

 

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Mesaana, probably got around the DF and BA swearing because she firmly believes she isn't neither. With the other oaths, she could probably just travel to Shayol Ghul and have the DO work his magic on her. I would have to believe his oaths for his Chosen would superceed anything the OR could do. I mean he is a deity. Albeit a nasty, sneaky, and evil deity, but still a deity with immense powers.

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I agree with StefanR.  And I think that people keep misunderstanding what BS said to a degree.  BS didn't say "you can fool the oath about lying" he said you can completely fool the oath rod.  This says to me that you can swear any oaths, not just about lying, and the oath rod will have no effect if you know the secret to tricking it.

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