A Way to Evade the Oaths (Full Spoilers)

[Random Man]

If there is a way to evade the binder then there are likely some black sisters left that weren't known to Verin.  I still think Lelaine is BA

Evading the binder could involve something as simple, yet exclusive, as Mesaana having knowledge of inverted weaves -- which most 3rd Agers do not believe to be possible, let alone have any clue how to go about creating. In fact, the two most plausible theories for evading the Rod IMO -- avoiding direct contact or making it appear she'd spoken when she did not -- both rely on her use of inverted weaves. Very few, other than the Forsaken, know how to do this.

[Lironah]

My theory: Mesaana is disguised as Danelle and wore thin gloves under her inverted mask of mirrors.  Simplicity is best.

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/d/danelle.html

[Random Man]

My theory: Mesaana is disguised as Danelle and wore thin gloves under her inverted mask of mirrors.  Simplicity is best.

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/d/danelle.html

That's probably the simplest scenario that fits with everything we know, yes. She is still hiding as Danelle and avoided being bound by avoiding contact with the Oath Rod.

[Aquarius]

Yes, that's was I was suggesting: given  Moridin's and Shaidar Haran's way of dealing with failure, it's likly she would have changed her face and taken another, weaker, identity. This is somewhat in contradiction with Brandon's "You can beat the OR" of course :)

The main problem with this is Egwene's short list. If Mesaana ditched her persona as you describe, the name of the person she had impersonated would have appeared on Egwene's short list of unnacounted-for sisters who could potentially be Mesaana. Only Nalasia Merhan, Teramina and Jamilila Norish remain unaccounted for and would qualify as suspects if Mesaana didn't find a way to stay hiding among the resworn sisters. None of these three IIRC have ever been on our short list of suspects for Mesaana's alter ego, and Egwene finds it implausible that any of these are her even without knowing what we know(what she looks like, for instance). Egwene reasons out that unless Mesaana managed to get herself captured by the Seanchan, this means Mesaana is probably still in the Tower and is still in her alter ego (which means she somehow evaded detection upon "swearing").

Or else, she was on Verin's list, posing as a Black, and so is part of the 60-odd that seem to have escaped.

[Sharaman]

There's a problem with that list or Brandon deliberately obfuscated, while writing his description of that list.

Nevertheless, his other remarks, and Messi's own compulsions make it very likely that she's still in the tower.

Note that she has a fairly simply way of escaping the Seanchan duriong the Raid. She can cover up her channeling ability totally. The suldams and damane never detected Semirhage over months of intimate contact. They wouldn't detect Messi as a channeler during the tower raid and even if they came across her, they would just ignore her as a servant or some other random woman who cannot channel.

 

 

[MikeRiley]

A bit off topic here, but it'd be fun to see one of those dark Seanchan assassins kill her thinking she's an Aes Sedai.

[Charlz Guybon]

A bit off topic here, but it'd be fun to see one of those dark Seanchan assassins kill her thinking she's an Aes Sedai.

Those ter'angreal must have been made by the shadow, so I'd imagine she'd know how to deal with them. Of course, if one catches her by surprise that's another story. Still, it doesn't seem ironic enough.

[Sharaman]

Can see the Seanchan ninja as a sort of deux ex machina.

Say one of them attacks Messi. She fends him off but her MoM is stripped in the process and she makes a break for it and then Egwene chases around TAR. 

[yoniy0]

I don't know that they're needed as such. Given the choice, being Egwene in a Tower where Mesaana is hiding or being Mesaana hiding in a Tower in which Egwene is Amyrlin, I think I would dread the second more than the first. Mesaana doesn't impress me at all. I think Egwene is capable of handling her.

[Random Man]

I don't know that they're needed as such. Given the choice, being Egwene in a Tower where Mesaana is hiding or being Mesaana hiding in a Tower in which Egwene is Amyrlin, I think I would dread the second more than the first. Mesaana doesn't impress me at all. I think Egwene is capable of handling her.

To quote Vlad Taltos, "No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style." Were Egwene to face Mesaana openly, I'm sure Egwene would make Air sushi out of her without much difficulty. As long as Mesaana remains hidden versus Egwene operating in the open, Mesaana holds the initiative. She can decide when, and how, to strike against Egwene, which puts Egwene at a significant disadvantage.

 

That said, I'm certain that our bumbling Forsaken friend (the one who joined the Shadow to begin with because she wasn't deemed fit to work in a science lab) will find some spectacularly clever way to blow the chance to capitalize on her advantage over Egwene. Or find some ingenious way to allow Egwene to escape her grasp once her trap is sprung. Or maybe she'll sneeze at the wrong time and it'll drop her Mask of Mirrors. As long as it's convenient to the plot.

[mb]

As long as Mesaana remains hidden versus Egwene operating in the open, Mesaana holds the initiative.

Perhaps, yet how long can Mesaana remain hidden?

I would guess a relatively short time.

Verin might have had Mesaana's description in her notes about Mesaana.

Or perhaps Mesaana might be uncovered if/when Cadsuane comes.  Or perhaps when Nynaeve comes if Nynaeve also has a terangreal that can unravel webs.

Also, Egwene probably ordered a number of Aes Sedia to search for her; likely the ones that searched for the Black Ajah.

 

[DemandredFO]

when Nyneave and/or Cadsuane come it'll probably be with Rand to break a siege of shadowspawn and by then I think Mesaana will have been dealt with.  I think Mesaana is significantly stronger than Egwene so I don't see Egwene making mince meat unless she has an angreal or sa'angreal.  Also, Egwene just handicapped herself by taking the oaths.

[Hadilmir]

To quote Vlad Taltos, "No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style."

"No matter how clever the assassin, a trap within a trap disguised as a trap will seriously foil his plans."

 

-Egwene knows Mesaana is in the Tower.

-Egwene isn't half as arrogant as Elayne.

-Egwene has full access to angreal, Mesaana has no access.

 

Knowing Mesaana is in the Tower, Egwene is likely carrying an angreal with her at all times and certainly plotting Mesaana's destruction. If Elayne were Amyrlin (Light forbid that ever happens) then I'd agree with Vlad, but Egwene isn't the cliche'd wizard.

 

I still think Mesaana is going to survive the Last Battle, but she isn't going to kill Egwene on the way.

[mb]

Also, Egwene just handicapped herself by taking the oaths.

Mesaana likely has also.  And the Tower's rod is probably the only one that Mesaana knows about, and it is probably guarded; thus a slight chance to forswear.

 

Or if she knows about the Shaido's one, she might have as much difficulty getting it as had Galina; and/or her leaving the Tower (any time and for any length of time) might raise Aes Sedia suspicions.

 

[Sharaman]

 

Also, Egwene just handicapped herself by taking the oaths.

Mesaana likely has also. 

 

That doesn't fit with " A way to evade the oaths".

[mb]

Also, Egwene just handicapped herself by taking the oaths.

Mesaana likely has also.

That doesn't fit with " A way to evade the oaths".

Maybe, but it does seem to fit what happened.

 

The way to me seems to have been practiced throughout this series.

First oath: believing that the statement is true

Third oath: believing that she is in danger

In summary: believing something that is seemingly contradictory to the oath.

 

[Sharaman]

Also, Egwene just handicapped herself by taking the oaths.

Mesaana likely has also.

That doesn't fit with " A way to evade the oaths".

Maybe, but it does seem to fit what happened.

 

The way to me seems to have been practiced throughout this series.

First oath: believing that the statement is true

Third oath: believing that she is in danger

In summary: believing something that is seemingly contradictory to the oath.

 

 

So you assume that Mesaana passed the swearing ceremony by saying "I am not a member of the Black Ajah/ Darkfriend" because in her mind she thinks of herself as Chosen?

 

 

 

 

[mb]

Also, Egwene just handicapped herself by taking the oaths.

Mesaana likely has also.

That doesn't fit with " A way to evade the oaths".

Maybe, but it does seem to fit what happened.

 

The way to me seems to have been practiced throughout this series.

First oath: believing that the statement is true

Third oath: believing that she is in danger

In summary: believing something that is seemingly contradictory to the oath.

So you assume that Mesaana passed the swearing ceremony by saying "I am not a member of the Black Ajah/ Darkfriend" because in her mind she thinks of herself as Chosen?

Not really assume; but after considering the likely precautions (placed on every participant), that seems the most likely.

 

[Duskfire]

Well I look at it sort of like... a king and a commoner. If a King had to swear on the Oath Rod that he wasn't a commoner, he would pass. They are both human, but different stations. And though that isnt the greatest analogue, I think the mindset is the same. The Forsaken consider themselves more then just darkfriends, and someone who is intelligent (like Mesaana) could easily use that against the Oath Rod.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I seem to be thinking along the same lines

Mesaana can swear she is not a Darkfriend, for its a 3rd age term and she would not think herself a mere Darkfriend in any case.

 

2. She could swear she was not Black Ajah, which is true, shes a Forsaken.

 

That seems to be the simplest answer to it, but i think it will be something more than just this, and that i cannot guess.

 

[Mcpatrick]

I'm a fan of the thin gloves + MoM theory, simply because of Occam's razor. She is already using the mask of mirrors, after all.

 

That said, Egwene is in a far more dangerous position than Mesaana. All Mesaana needs is a reversed flow of air to remove Egwene's head and Egwene would be able to do nothing about it, no matter how large an escort she has. Only Mat's terangreal would protect her then. Not to mention that Mesaana can just travel away.

 

 

[Casabamelon]

Not really assume; but after considering the likely precautions (placed on every participant), that seems the most likely.

 

 

And that's where you lose people. That is an assumption, regardless of how you phrase it.

[farthammer]

Is there any reason Mesaana couldn't simply be one of those women petitioners who wants to see the Amyrlin?  At least with Alviarin still as keeper she could've kept herself in limbo waiting for quite a while with some made up story that isn't cause for urgency, but perhaps valid enough for her to remain there.  Hanging out in the library or something.

[Dreamwalker]

Is there any reason Mesaana couldn't simply be one of those women petitioners who wants to see the Amyrlin?  At least with Alviarin still as keeper she could've kept herself in limbo waiting for quite a while with some made up story that isn't cause for urgency, but perhaps valid enough for her to remain there.  Hanging out in the library or something.

 

That's an interesting idea - I'd always simply ruled it out because how could you stay in the tower that long as a petitioner, but your idea of having Alviarin put her in bureaucratic red-tape limbo to keep her there is an interesting one.

 

But I think we can still rule it out for a couple of other reasons:

1. As a petitioner she would not have full access to the tower. This makes it much harder for her to eavesdrop on Alviarin and Elaida as she seems to have been doing.

2. More importantly, this quote from Graendal's PoV in the tGS Prologue:

“Mesaana was in the White Tower, pretending to be one of what passed for an Aes Sedai in this Age. She was obvious and easy to read; Graendal’s agents in the White Tower kept her well apprised of Mesaana’s activities.”

 

Now, that second point entirely depends on if you trust Graendal's info to be accurate or not. I do because I think Graendal is sneaky enough to pull it off, but some others don't trust it.

[farthammer]

Yeah I just find it more difficult to figure out how she could remain there as a full AS.  I guess the only other thing I can think of is perhaps she is masquerading as one of those lesser nobles who may have went to TV for training like Morgase did, but was let go after becoming Accepted.  Maybe someone from the borderlands since they seem to be in disarray trying to be a liaison.