A Way to Evade the Oaths (Full Spoilers)

[Trib4l]

If she bypassed the rod, her reasoning could have been as simple as, "I am not a (lowly) darkfriend because I am one of the Chosen". With that reasoning, oath against lying bypassed especially if she considers there to be a vast difference between the two.

[Random Man]

If she bypassed the rod, her reasoning could have been as simple as, "I am not a (lowly) darkfriend because I am one of the Chosen". With that reasoning, oath against lying bypassed especially if she considers there to be a vast difference between the two.

While Brandon did say that she could say this as long as she believed it to be true, he also pointed us away from drawing this conclusion, telling us essentially that there's a way for Mesaana to have appeared to swear without actually doing so.

 

If Mesaana could not devise a way to evade capture during the "reswearing" without having to actually bind herself, she would probably have rather fled the Tower than risk getting bound  -- especially since with all the BA sitters gone, it would be hard for her to get her hands on the Oath Rod to unbind herself. Remember, she'd also be bound against using the Power as a weapon, and I could just see how that would look bad:

 

Moridin: Mesaana, you must kill Perrin.

Mesaana: Okay.

Moridin: When he sleeps tonight, he'll enter the Wolf Dream. Just go there and strangle him with Air.

Mesaana: Erm...Uh...

Moridin: I'm sure that even you can't screw that up.

Mesaana: Um...well, here's the thing...to remain hidden in the Tower, I kinda let myself get bound by the Three Oaths. So I can't use the Power as a weapon unless Perrin's trying to kill me first.

Moridin: *facepalm*

[mb]

he also pointed us away from drawing this conclusion

Unless Sanderson clarifies, that would be a matter of interpretation.

By my interpretation, Sanderson seems to imply that she evaded by believing that she was not a darkfriend.

 

telling us essentially that there's a way for Mesaana to have appeared to swear without actually doing so.

Egwene and her Aes Sedia probably took precaution and shielded everyone there.

With that precaution, there would be no way to just appear.

 

[MikeRiley]

"As long as she believed it to be true.  Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the three oaths.  You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod.  There is a way to do it."

 

 

Why would he explain the way to defeat the oath rod, only to tell us we should be thinking about ways to defeat it? He's telling us to think which more than implies that "as long as she believed it to be true" is not the real answer.

[Som1else]

could she have channeled inverted weaves of air around her hand so she wasn't ever in contact with the oath rod and remained unbound?

[Random Man]

could she have channeled inverted weaves of air around her hand so she wasn't ever in contact with the oath rod and remained unbound?

 

That's in line with Glove Theory, that she avoided contact with the rod to keep from getting bound by it, the logic being that the rod has to touch your skin to bind you. An even simpler way would be to wear a glove and incorporate that into her Mask of Mirrors. But in a pinch, she could have done the same thing. There isn't anything that I've seen that contradicts this as a real possibility. I rate either avoiding contact with the rod, or avoiding actually speaking the oaths while making it look like she did(recorder theory) as the two most reasonable explanations based on what we know to be possible.

[mb]

As long as she believed it to be true.  Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the three oaths.  You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod.  There is a way to do it.

Why would he explain the way to defeat the oath rod, only to tell us we should be thinking about ways to defeat it? He's telling us to think which more than implies that "as long as she believed it to be true" is not the real answer.

The most probable way would probably relate to the first two sentences.

It would make little sense if the way was something different.

 

[Random Man]

As long as she believed it to be true.  Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the three oaths.  You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod.  There is a way to do it.

Why would he explain the way to defeat the oath rod, only to tell us we should be thinking about ways to defeat it? He's telling us to think which more than implies that "as long as she believed it to be true" is not the real answer.

The most probable way would probably relate to the first two sentences.

It would make little sense if the way was something different.

 

The problem with this solution, as has been stated before, is that this would mean that Mesaana would have still been bound by the Three Oaths. Not exactly a situation she would have wanted to find herself in, especially without a way to quickly unbind herself -- since all the BA sitters are gone from the Tower, none of them can be used to get Mesaana access to the Oath Rod (this is how the BA had access to the Oath Rod beforehand), and Egwene's already addressed the need to make the Tower stash more secure to prevent AS with Traveling from popping in whenever they want to "borrow" ter'angreal.  It's unreasonable to think that Egwene wouldn't, at the very least, take the same steps to keep the Oath Rod secure. Mesaana would probably have rather fled the Tower than bind herself, and either admit defeat in her plans (which have already fallen apart anyway) or figure out a way to return later and stay hidden and unbound, which might have been difficult to say the least -- requiring assuming a new persona, etc.

 

We know Mesaana is still in the Tower, so if she remained behind AND bound herself with the Oath Rod, she's even more useless now than she was before, since she has no known allies to scheme with, can't lie to sow chaos and dissent, and can't use the Power to, say, knock off Egwene or some of her supporters. What exactly would be her motivation be to remain under those circumstances? She needs to save her bacon after her latest catastrophe, not find new ways to demonstrate her incompetence in the service of the Shadow.

[Wantanswers]

Did anyone notice Egwene has seen Mesaana several times in TAR.(Lord of Chaos, ch.14)

 

I wonder who warned the BA in the rebel camp. A sister who wasn't on Verin's list? A sister who knew how to evade the Oath Rod. Furthermore I should like to know of which Ajah the sisters were, who escaped. If they were of all 6 Ajahs in the rebel camp, one of the Sitters cannot be trusted.

[DemandredFO]

A thought occurred to me, I'm wondering if Mesaana stayed behind to try and manipulate Egwene into a Fateful Concord situation.  We know, unlike last time the the plan will work but that Latra was right and siadar would've been tainted.  I'm thinking of her words at the DF social that all will serve whether they know it or not.  We know that Rand need's women to wield Callandor.

[Sharaman]

Did anyone notice Egwene has seen Mesaana several times in TAR.(Lord of Chaos, ch.14)

 

I wonder who warned the BA in the rebel camp. A sister who wasn't on Verin's list? A sister who knew how to evade the Oath Rod. Furthermore I should like to know of which Ajah the sisters were, who escaped. If they were of all 6 Ajahs in the rebel camp, one of the Sitters cannot be trusted.

 

The pretty determined woman with blue eyes? The copper skinned one must be one of the Liandrin's 13 BA using a dream ter'angreal, while the pretty one with blue eyes must be Messi. This doesn't help unfortunately, unless Egwene sees her again without the mask.

The BA cell network cuts across ajahs but do you mean the rebel camp or the Tower - far more women escaped in the Tower.  

 

[csarmi]

She did not, she spotted Siuan, Leane and some others she know. Well, she might have spotted Mesaana, but we don't know about that. I doubt it, however. Mesaana is no fool.

[Wantanswers]

Did anyone notice Egwene has seen Mesaana several times in TAR.(Lord of Chaos, ch.14)

 

I wonder who warned the BA in the rebel camp. A sister who wasn't on Verin's list? A sister who knew how to evade the Oath Rod. Furthermore I should like to know of which Ajah the sisters were, who escaped. If they were of all 6 Ajahs in the rebel camp, one of the Sitters cannot be trusted.

 

The pretty determined woman with blue eyes? The copper skinned one must be one of the Liandrin's 13 BA using a dream ter'angreal, while the pretty one with blue eyes must be Messi. This doesn't help unfortunately, unless Egwene sees her again without the mask.

The BA cell network cuts across ajahs but do you mean the rebel camp or the Tower - far more women escaped in the Tower.  

 

The copper-skinned one most probably is Suian. She uses a inferior ter-angreal, created by Elayne. That is why she looks misty. Siuan always disguises herself, when she is in TAR.

The pretty determined woman with blue eyes is Mesaana. Egwene has seen her in and around the WT, several times in Tear and the last two times in Caemlin.

 

 

I mean the rebel camp. The BA in the WT already fled before Egwene came there. They could have been warned by a BA, who fled the rebel camp.

[Hadilmir]

The copper-skinned one most probably is Suian. She uses a inferior ter-angreal, created by Elayne. That is why she looks misty. Siuan always disguises herself, when she is in TAR.

The pretty determined woman with blue eyes is Mesaana. Egwene has seen her in and around the WT, several times in Tear and the last two times in Caemlin.

Why couldn't the copper-skinned one be Leane, she is Domani after all, and Siuan has blue eyes, why can't she be the other? I think you guys are reading too much into it.

[csarmi]

The pretty one is Siuan, most likely.

[Sharaman]

@Csarmi - you're right it is Suian. Egwene recognises her when she's summoned to Salidar and Suian draws the map in TAR to show the route.

So the copper-skinned one is likely to be Leane.

 

[Som1else]

NEW THEORY!!!!

what if messy never took the oaths and is hiding in the tower as one non-AS wouldnt that be the best way to evade the oaths

[Dreamwalker]

NEW THEORY!!!!

what if messy never took the oaths and is hiding in the tower as one non-AS wouldnt that be the best way to evade the oaths

 

Mesaana is definitely disguised as an AS and here's why (excerpt from my blog post on Mesaana's identity: http://telaranrhiod-awheeloftimeblog.blogspot.com/2010/04/mesaana-enemy-within.html)

We have four main options for Mesaana in the White Tower:

1. She is disguised as an Aes Sedai

2. She is disguised as a Novice or Accepted

3. She is disguised as a Tower servant or other worker

4. She is disguised as some sort of Tower visitor (unlikely due to the duration of her stay)

 

The first time that Alviarin gets a little glimpse of Mesaana’s clothing is when she grabs the hem of her dress in tPoD Ch. 25. She sees that Mesaana is wearing a bronze silk dress with black scrollwork. This immediately rules out options 2 and 3 – a Novice or Accepted would not be wearing silk, and neither would a servant of any sort. Beneath her Illusion Mesaana is probably wearing whatever she is wearing in the Tower that day – it would be far too much work for her to change just to see Alviarin, and she cannot simply be wearing silk under an Illusion of a Novice, Accepted, or serving-woman’s dress because with the movement of the dress it would be imperfect – that is how Alviarin sees flashes of the hem of her dress in the first place.

 

As for reasons why Mesaana must be an Aes Sedai, that information is also provided by Alviarin - she sees Mesaana completely revealed when Shaidar Haran comes to punish her in this scene in CoT Ch. 21:

 

   “Startled, Alviarin found herself with her begging hands stretched up toward a blue-eyed woman of flesh and blood, garbed in bronze-embroidered green. A tantalizingly familiar woman who looked just short of her middle years."

 

Alviarin seems to vaguely recognize Mesaana, but not enough to put her finger on exactly who she has been disguising herself as. This seems to indicate that Mesaana is only very slightly altering her appearance while in the Tower. Further, this is exactly the kind of reaction people have to Siuan and Leane after they are stilled and lose their ageless appearance – people feel like they look familiar, but they cannot recognize them for who they are. Therefore Mesaana is likely posing as an Aes Sedai and only adding the ageless look via Mask of Mirrors, and partially shielding her ability to channel (if Mesaana is a strong enough channeler that she would stand out, which is likely since she is one of the Forsaken). Making only small modifications to her appearance (e.g. just adding the agelessness) makes the disguise easy to maintain. Finally, in the prologue of tGS Graendal muses to herself about Mesaana:

 

   “Mesaana was in the White Tower, pretending to be one of what passed for an Aes Sedai in this Age. She was obvious and easy to read; Graendal’s agents in the White Tower kept her well apprised of Mesaana’s activities.”

 

So if we trust Graendal to be well-informed (which I do, as she is one of the most subtle and cunning of the Forsaken), on top of our other evidence from Alviarin, then it is certain that Mesaana is disguised as an Aes Sedai.

[Aquarius]

NEW THEORY!!!!

what if messy never took the oaths and is hiding in the tower as one non-AS wouldnt that be the best way to evade the oaths

 

Mesaana is definitely disguised as an AS and here's why (excerpt from my blog post on Mesaana's identity: http://telaranrhiod-awheeloftimeblog.blogspot.com/2010/04/mesaana-enemy-within.html)

We have four main options for Mesaana in the White Tower:

1. She is disguised as an Aes Sedai

2. She is disguised as a Novice or Accepted

3. She is disguised as a Tower servant or other worker

4. She is disguised as some sort of Tower visitor (unlikely due to the duration of her stay)

 

The first time that Alviarin gets a little glimpse of Mesaana’s clothing is when she grabs the hem of her dress in tPoD Ch. 25. She sees that Mesaana is wearing a bronze silk dress with black scrollwork. This immediately rules out options 2 and 3 – a Novice or Accepted would not be wearing silk, and neither would a servant of any sort. Beneath her Illusion Mesaana is probably wearing whatever she is wearing in the Tower that day – it would be far too much work for her to change just to see Alviarin, and she cannot simply be wearing silk under an Illusion of a Novice, Accepted, or serving-woman’s dress because with the movement of the dress it would be imperfect – that is how Alviarin sees flashes of the hem of her dress in the first place.

 

As for reasons why Mesaana must be an Aes Sedai, that information is also provided by Alviarin - she sees Mesaana completely revealed when Shaidar Haran comes to punish her in this scene in CoT Ch. 21:

 

   “Startled, Alviarin found herself with her begging hands stretched up toward a blue-eyed woman of flesh and blood, garbed in bronze-embroidered green. A tantalizingly familiar woman who looked just short of her middle years."

 

Alviarin seems to vaguely recognize Mesaana, but not enough to put her finger on exactly who she has been disguising herself as. This seems to indicate that Mesaana is only very slightly altering her appearance while in the Tower. Further, this is exactly the kind of reaction people have to Siuan and Leane after they are stilled and lose their ageless appearance – people feel like they look familiar, but they cannot recognize them for who they are. Therefore Mesaana is likely posing as an Aes Sedai and only adding the ageless look via Mask of Mirrors, and partially shielding her ability to channel (if Mesaana is a strong enough channeler that she would stand out, which is likely since she is one of the Forsaken). Making only small modifications to her appearance (e.g. just adding the agelessness) makes the disguise easy to maintain. Finally, in the prologue of tGS Graendal muses to herself about Mesaana:

 

   “Mesaana was in the White Tower, pretending to be one of what passed for an Aes Sedai in this Age. She was obvious and easy to read; Graendal’s agents in the White Tower kept her well apprised of Mesaana’s activities.”

 

So if we trust Graendal to be well-informed (which I do, as she is one of the most subtle and cunning of the Forsaken), on top of our other evidence from Alviarin, then it is certain that Mesaana is disguised as an Aes Sedai.

Maybe Somlelse was suggesting that AFTER the crack down on BA sisters, while all the BA Aes Sedai were fleeing, Messaana coul have calmly changed her Mask of Mirrors to that of a servant, or at least removed her Ageless face (or remove the MoM completely) and just stop posing as an AS.

[yoniy0]

She could, but Egwene made an effort to track each and every sister known to be in the Tower before the Seanchan raid. Those who are missing and weren't reported taken by the Seanchan were marked as possible Darkfriends, IIRC. Therefore, Mesaana would be giving up on that identity for good.

It comes down to whether she wants to stay in the Tower masquerading as a servant. If not, I guess she could just flee. Of course, we know (BS strongly implied it) that she did not (part of that could be her imagining Moridin's reaction after her declaration in the prologue).

Me, I think she found a way around the Oaths. Go back a few pages and you can find my favorite theory.

[Sharaman]

Staying in the Tower is by far, the lesser evil for Messi.

Given a choice between facing the wrath of Egwene and the displeasure of Shaidar, it's a no-brainer.

She stays, and in the worst case, is found and executed. Egwene won't use balefire.

GLoD might even resurrect her.

If she runs away, Shaidar is likely to express his displeasure rather more forcibly than Egwene is capable of.

-------------------------

 

Also Messi is/was posing as an AS.

The indirect, meta-proof of this is simple, though tedious to check through.

Both RJ (after CoT) and BS have stated that there's enough information for readers to id Messi.

That means enough of a description of her secret ID has been written into the series to nail her - we've seen someone, who's around at critical moments, blue-eyed and brown-haired, etc. 

There simply isn't that kind of detailed description of any non-AS in the Tower, anywhere between TDR and CoT, or later, for that matter.

 

 

 

[Aquarius]

Yes, that's was I was suggesting: given  Moridin's and Shaidar Haran's way of dealing with failure, it's likly she would have changed her face and taken another, weaker, identity. This is somewhat in contradiction with Brandon's "You can beat the OR" of course :)

[Random Man]

Yes, that's was I was suggesting: given  Moridin's and Shaidar Haran's way of dealing with failure, it's likly she would have changed her face and taken another, weaker, identity. This is somewhat in contradiction with Brandon's "You can beat the OR" of course :)

The main problem with this is Egwene's short list. If Mesaana ditched her persona as you describe, the name of the person she had impersonated would have appeared on Egwene's short list of unnacounted-for sisters who could potentially be Mesaana. Only Nalasia Merhan, Teramina and Jamilila Norish remain unaccounted for and would qualify as suspects if Mesaana didn't find a way to stay hiding among the resworn sisters. None of these three IIRC have ever been on our short list of suspects for Mesaana's alter ego, and Egwene finds it implausible that any of these are her even without knowing what we know(what she looks like, for instance). Egwene reasons out that unless Mesaana managed to get herself captured by the Seanchan, this means Mesaana is probably still in the Tower and is still in her alter ego (which means she somehow evaded detection upon "swearing").

[DemandredFO]

If there is a way to evade the binder then there are likely some black sisters left that weren't known to Verin.  I still think Lelaine is BA

[lordofsoup]

I hate how RJ and BS always say that we are so close, and we should know from hints in the book who did what, and who is who.  Just a pet peeve.  I'm sure it will all be worth it in the end, and i will be sad I still don't know, but now it just makes me mad.