A Way to Evade the Oaths (Full Spoilers)

[Luckers]

3. Question: She could swear that she’s not a Darkfriend on the Oath Rod, right?

 

3. Answer: As long as she believed it to be true.  Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the three oaths.  You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod.  There is a way to do it.

 

He doesn't come out and say it, but it does seem Brandon's pointing us away from the 'I'm not a Darkfriend, I be CHOSEN' explanation of how Mesaana overcame the Oaths.

 

So that's what this thread is for--ideas on how one might overcome the oaths. Feel free to go as wild outside the box as you want.

 

Here are my thoughts. The first issue is this--binders were used with great effectiveness during the Age of Legends, and Semirhage and Balthemel both feared being bound, so that combined with that Brandon's told us to start thinking about it suggests to me that its not as simple as Mesaana weaving around her an inverted anti-Oath weave or something.

 

Now the Blacks in the Tower were warned about the purge so one may presume Mesaana was as well, thus giving her time to prepare. From there consider--we know she's replaced an Aes Sedai, so what if she didn't kill whomever she replaced, but kept them around hidden somewhere in case of the need to gain information or something, and so when the purge happened Mesaane (forewarned) pulled her out, dusted her off and compelled her in her re-swearing of the Oaths.

 

It need not even have been the Aes Sedai she replaced--Mask of Mirrors could take care of the looks. Any lightbound channeler would do, though an Aes Sedai would be preferable--even forewarned and using compulsion it would take time to prepare a random wilder. With an Aes Sedai you need merely compel her to behave normally.

 

So that's my idea, what are yours?

[lillcheese]

I wonder if the sarcasm trick to get around the first oath could be used in the actual binding.

 

Which has got me thinking about language issues.  Didn't they speak a different language during the AoL? Ignoring for the moment the incongruity that all the Forsaken are speaking the modern language correctly, what if the OR only works in your first language?  Second languages are stored in a different part of the brain.  Understanding of lexicon/grammar is less precise generally.  If she didn't understand (at the time of swearing) the meanings of the words of the oaths, could they bind her?  I don't think so.

[Luckers]

The sarcasm thing couldn't work--its all about intention, and thats what Brandon was directing us away from. The language idea is interesting though.

[Usernameless]

Maybe the DO put some kind of anti-oath weave on her. Don't wanna lose valuable property after all...

[Auld Manriva]

well lets see

 

1. To speak no word that is not true

2. To make no weapon with which one man may kill another

3. Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her life, the life of her Warder or another Aes Sedai

 

It's number one that is the operative oath here. The others make no nevermind as relates to the statement; "I am not a darkfriend.

 

That leaves; one either believes they are NOT, one somehow negates the "binding rods" effect, or what?

The Oath itself is somehow changed by semantics? Hmmm..

Or is it the statement itself?

 

I ... Messy is two persons. The one seen and herself. Which "I" is taking the oath?

am ... meh

not ... not a lot of wiggle room there.

a ... again, meh

darkfriend ... I still believe the simplest road is the answer. Sanderson may have moved his arm quick in one direction and thrown the stick for Pavlov's Dog's in the other. Just to giggle behind a hand.

 

The actual Oath to the DO could be the answer too. I don't recall, other than not betraying the DO until the hour of one's death, what it is or how it works.

[Charlz Fel]

Suppose an Aes Sedai (or someone else who wanted to defeat the Oaths, and was forewarned) taught herself another language (call it Lie), so that certain words of Lie happen to sound very similar to words of standard language that mean almost the opposite thing?  Then, when someone asks you "Are you a Darkfriend?" you answer "of course not," where "not" is the word in Lie for "I am."  I do wonder, though; to make that work, it seems like you would have to have had a great deal of practice speaking Lie, so that for any given sentence that has meaning in both languages, its Lie meaning comes to mind as easily as its standard meaning.  This would, of course, be easier if "standard language" is your second language; even so, standard language is derived from Mesaana's native tongue (much as Italian is derived from Latin), and I find it hard to imagine she has spent as much time speaking Lie as she has speaking to non-Forsaken.

 

Another possibility is simply to convince yourself that whatever you want to say is true, even when you know it's not.  If this is done simply through extraordinary mental discipline, I find it somewhat unconvincing--a convenient trick for authors to use, but not something I can imagine anyone ever actually doing, particularly not when it is necessary to be able to undo it.  Perhaps it could be done through the One Power (can you compel yourself?), but in that case it would be dangerous; and I imagine that if the technique were too dangerous, Mesaana would simply have fled rather than employ it.  In truth, I'm somewhat surprised that she was willing accept being bound at all, however confident she was of her ability to get around the Oath against lying.

[The Fisher King]

Ewwwwwwww Luckers!!! I just had a thought!!! One I am very very very Curious about!

 

: What do you think would happen if COMPLUSION were used on a Black Ajah??!

 

Now, I seriously dounth this is where Mr Sanderson was going (and I agree with you, Luckers, on what it seems like he was trying to head off) but I just had this thought and it has me momentarily fascinated.

 

Obviously the main problem is theres not always a handy extra member of the Chosen around to Compulse you but...WAIT! Messana is still in The WT!

 

What is stronger? A Forskaken Strength-Level Act of Compulsion or the Power of The Rod??

 

What if Graendal or Mesanna used Compusion on a Black Sister to deny that they were a DF while holding the Rod???

 

Which Power would win???

 

Hmmmmm!

 

I dunno!

 

Though, it does make you wonder if at some point Mes. used a high level of Compuslion - sorta a Brainwashing Session - on all her B.A. in the Tower.

 

I also can't think of any other way to avoid the oaths other than the obvious (foreswearing them).

 

 

Fish

 

[yoniy0]

Regarding Compulsion, I don't think you could break an Oath that way. The Oath is completely compelling, so if the Compulsion is at an absolute level as well (we know from Nynaeve's & Morgase's experience that some Compulsions you could resist) you would probably just die (like what happens when two Oaths contradict each other).

 

I think that BS wasn't necessarily hinting at something different than the obvious. The easiest way to defeat the OR is just to tell the truth as you see it, knowing that what you say would be misunderstood. I'm of the believe that Mesaana actually doesn't think of herself as a Darkfriend, but she could just as easily say "I'm not Black Ajah" and get out of it that way.

One more thing to remember - even if Mesaana is forced to take the Oaths, that doesn't mean she'll be bound by them for a very long time. She'd probably get them removed as soon as possible. So as long as she passes the first test, she'll be okay after that.

[ed2funy]

I don't think Compulsion would counter it.

We don't have a direct POV from a Sul'dam, but we know that the AS are useless as weapons. Though, they make pretty sky lights. :D

 

I think the the way to counter it is more physical than mental. Plus, from the quote, it seems that all the Oaths can be broken, or a way can be found around all of them, not just the First. :-\

 

[cleantoe]

Maybe as she's channeling spirit into the Oath Rod to make it work, at the same time she's channeling another weave that is inverted in order to block it happening or to release her from it a split second after the oaths set in.

[Nethran Thaimal]

What if she's not masquerading as an Aes Sedai? Do we have anything to say for sure that she is? I could be wrong, but I thought all we knew was that she was in the Tower and wore dresses with embroidery. Because if she's not pretending to be an Aes Sedai, she wouldn't have had to use the rod to begin with.

[cleantoe]

What if she's not masquerading as an Aes Sedai? Do we have anything to say for sure that she is? I could be wrong, but I thought all we knew was that she was in the Tower and wore dresses with embroidery. Because if she's not pretending to be an Aes Sedai, she wouldn't have had to use the rod to begin with.

 

Verin says there is a Chosen masquerading as an Aes Sedai in the White Tower.

 

There is always a chance she's wrong, but I doubt it.

 

I, for one, think she's Laras! :P

[Taura-Tierno]

Suppose an Aes Sedai (or someone else who wanted to defeat the Oaths, and was forewarned) taught herself another language (call it Lie), so that certain words of Lie happen to sound very similar to words of standard language that mean almost the opposite thing?  Then, when someone asks you "Are you a Darkfriend?" you answer "of course not," where "not" is the word in Lie for "I am."  I do wonder, though; to make that work, it seems like you would have to have had a great deal of practice speaking Lie, so that for any given sentence that has meaning in both languages, its Lie meaning comes to mind as easily as its standard meaning.  This would, of course, be easier if "standard language" is your second language; even so, standard language is derived from Mesaana's native tongue (much as Italian is derived from Latin), and I find it hard to imagine she has spent as much time speaking Lie as she has speaking to non-Forsaken.

 

I wrote something about that at another forum, so I'm just going to paste it here. What I'm saying is basically that I don't believe you could lie by using a "Lie"-language, or even thinking in terms of how other cultures interpret words. If you know that what you say is going to be interpreted as a clear untruth (not just by omission or vague answers) you cannot speak it.

 

Like somebody else mentioned, a word's meaning is only what two or more people agree that it means, when used in conversation.

 

Now, let's assume that all Aes Sedai speak English. I know they don't in the books, but for the sake of the discussion, let's assume. In that case, I make the assumption that they cannot lie, no matter what language they speak. So if they speak English or Japanese or the Old Tongue, it does not matter. They still cannot lie.

 

Not every language works the same way as English when interpreting simple answers. Let's take an example of a situation where an Aes Sedai could answer both "yes" and "no" to the same question, with the exact same intent.

 

We have an Aes Sedai who is having dinner. She is really hungry and most certainly wants much more food. A servants approaches her and asks "Don't you want some more food, Aes Sedai?"

 

If the Aes Sedai answers "Yes", we would mostly take it to mean "Yes, I do want some more food", but depending on what culture you come from and what language you're accustomed to speaking, "yes" might not mean that at all.

 

Let's take Japanese, for instance, where answering negative questions is dealt with differently than in English. When you make the answer in Japanese, you don't answer what YOU want - you agree or disagree with the one who asks the question.

 

So, in that case, answering "Yes" would mean "Yes, I agree, I don't want any more food".

 

If the Aes Sedai knows that the servant comes from a culture where that is how you deal with such questions, and have most likely taken that way of thinking with her when speaking English, the Aes Sedai would be lying if says "yes". She knows that by saying "yes", she says that she does not want any more food, and that is a lie.

 

If she is not aware of that difference, she might still answer "Yes", but the servant would take it to mean "Yes, I agree, I do not want any more food", and thus will not return with food. If the Aes Sedai gets angry because the servant, according to her, disobeyed, the servant could easily claim, with 100% certainty, that the Aes Sedai lied to her. And in a sense, she did, but it was completely unintentional.

 

My point is that even a word as simple as "yes" does not always have to mean what we generally agree that "yes" means. It all depends on the context. The words themselves do not mean anything; it is the context and the norms and rules of language and communication that decide the meaning we convey.

 

If Mesaana did, however, answer in the Old Tongue, in a complex manner, that says she is indeed a darkfriend, then I suppose it would work, especially if the Aes Sedai didn't understand ... but not answering in the common language should be rather suspicious, I think.

[Sharaman]

Apart from semantics, she could get past it if she's kept the AS she's impersonating alive, and that one is not BA.

Get the real AS to take the oaths and pass the test.

 

I don't think that there's a known OP trick of counter-channeling or something to get past the oath. Alot of very smart AoL channellers would have experiment and tried and Semi, Balty didn't know any such means. Neither did Sammy / Graendal given their conversation with the Shaido in CoS.

 

I'm guessing that Messi will only get caught when she happens to be in the presence of Nyn and Nyn's ter'angreal says "someone's channelling" and thus alerts people about the inverted Mask of Mirrors.

 

[ed2funy]

It is simple for Mesaana to pass that part, because she is not a DF.

She is a Chosen.

She is better than a simple DF, most of them can't even channel!

 

AoL Aes Sedai didn't know how to unweave weaves...I am sure someone tried to find ways. AoL Aes Sedai never though of the Warder bond, or at least could not come up with a way.

I don't think it is the best idea to compare everything to the AoL AS. :-\

 

She most likely is impersonating an AS. She doesn't have to worry about channeling (there is a weave to partially mask it right?).

 

Anyways, I think there is a way to completely 'unbind' yourself, without another Oath Rod. That is what it sounds like.

[Sharaman]

I'm assuming that she has passed the Oath test, one way or another.

It could also be as simple as saying "I am not BA", which she isn't.

I think RJ said somewhere that you can unbind from the OR by using a "shadow-rod" dreamt up in TAR - Messi could do that. 

Nyn's ter'angreal alerted everyone to Semirhage's MoM when she was impersonating Tuon.

I'm assuming that if Nyn is in Messi's presence, her ter'angreal will alert and people will know that Messi is using the OP when she doesn't seem to be (assuming the MoM is inverted).

 

 

 

[ed2funy]

If RJ said something about a 'shadow rod' that would explain a lot. :)

 

As or Messi, I am sure she inverts almost everything so people don't see it. :P

 

I really want to find out what it is (if it is not the 'shadow rod')....

[Omega]

What if she is posing (either temporarily or more long term) as an initiate of the Tower, like an Accepted, especially with the influx of new women brought with Egwene. Obviously they don't let them swear the oaths until they become full AS.

 

Unlikely yes, but something to consider nonetheless. If not that though, then I'd stake my money on her simply not believing herself to be a DF

[StefanR]

From Sanderson's comments though, it sounds like Messana managed to GET AROUND the oath rod, not have them removed after though.

[Sharaman]

If RJ said something about a 'shadow rod' that would explain a lot. :)

 

As or Messi, I am sure she inverts almost everything so people don't see it. :P

 

I really want to find out what it is (if it is not the 'shadow rod')....

 

RJ didn't say "shadow-rod" - that's how I'm describing it :)

He said that you could create an OR in TaR that would work - (or maybe that the OR's reflection in TaR would work). I'm calling it a "shadow-rod" as a working description like Egwene created a "shadow Bela". I'm sure somebody can dig up the relevant quotes.

Nyn's ter'angreal logs even inverted weaves - that's why it's really powerful.

Even if Messi can renounce oaths with a TaR rod, she still has to have passed the test in full view before she can get into TaR and renounce the oaths.

 

 

[nophone]

well lets see

 

1. To speak no word that is not true

2. To make no weapon with which one man may kill another

3. Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last r is

 

Maybe for #1 all they have to do is at some point speak "no word that is not true"

 

they never said "I will not lie ever". Seems like a simple semantic, but so long as the person intended the meaning in such a way when they took the oath... it would be a legitimate loop hole. cheesy though.

[Dakota]

Something with this whole notion just doesn't sit right with me.

 

Remember that binding rods were used in the Age of Legends to punish criminals and keep them from repeating their crimes.  Not the sort of thing that one would want to have a back door around.

 

Also remember that the White Tower has had the Oath Rod for about three thousand years to study it and how it works.  Yeah, obviously at some point the Black Ajah found that it could be used to remove old oaths and swear new ones, but neither the Black Ajah nor the other ajahs were able to find a way to 'get around' the oaths.

 

I just can't help but feel that the trick that's being mentioned to get around the oaths hinges on some piece of information that we the readers don't have, and not something we could figure out by the information we have and what we could logically deduce.

[The Fisher King]

Cleantoe said:

 

''Verin says there is a Chosen masquerading as an Aes Sedai in the White Tower.

 

There is always a chance she's wrong, but I doubt it.''

 

Yeah, exactly. She COULD be wrong, but, I wouldn't bet against Verin on this one - or on anything, really, especially when it comes to knowledge of something.

 

Fish

 

[Gordar]

Sorry to interrupt you guys in this discussion, but I was wondering why nobody mentioned the possibility that she used a ter'angreal.

 

I don't know how it worked in the AOL, but maybe people were stripped & all jewelry had to be removed before they were bound to the binding rod.

 

This didn't happen when Egwene forced the Aes Sedai to take the oaths again & Mesaana, a scholar from the AOL, would certainly know if such a ter'angreal existed. Since there's a lot of ter'angreal in the tower of which the Aes Sedai don't even know what they do, it's possible that there's a ter'angreal that nullifies the effects of the binding rod.

 

If I were a channeling criminal in the age of legends with the ability to make ter'angreal & I knew I was about to get caught, I'd certainly try to make one, even though the chances of me being able to use it were small.

 

It would of course be a disappointment if this were the case, depending on how it was written, but still a possibility.

[ed2funy]

Sharaman: I know it was your word, but since I didn't have any other word, I used yours. :)

I get your comment on Meesi now. Sorry. :D

 

From Sanderson's comments though, it sounds like Messana managed to GET AROUND the oath rod, not have them removed after though.

Listen to him. That is what I am saying. The quote implies a way to completely get around the Oaths.

 

@Gordar, that could be it, but I wonder if he was implying that any AS could get around it, not just a Forsaken or a BA whom the Forsaken told. :-\