Moraine and The Tower of Ghenjei

[SheaththeSword]

Lanfear was not reincarnated by the DO because he had no access to her soul.

 

I vote that the Finns took all her memories and put them in another body.

It does not undo stilling, but Cyndane is lower than Lanfear.

They are not the same, but they are.

 

Ha! Ed, ur a genius. This seems to solve everything about the slight inconcistancies with Cydane and Lanfear..

Or does it?

'Lord of the Grave' must have some significance other than to warn Rand if he dies before time he's the DO's toy.

 

Still, i can't believe that no one ( to the best of my knowledge) though tof this before... ;D

[ed2funy]

People shoot it down because Mat thinks and speculates on the link the Finn's create.

It doesn't mean he is right, and I have said that the Finn's can browse through your memories and stuff to get your answers.

 

Who knows what they can do?

 

And thanks for the comment. :)

[Majsju]

People shot it down because RJ stated that the finns can neither transmigrate souls, or hold on to souls after death. Simple as that.

 

 

[ed2funy]

I am not talking about her soul.

Simple as that. :P

[mb]

As for the finns ability to upload memories, first they need to gather them. And that gathering is done by establishing a link with people.

Lanfear's memories are the memories that Cyndane has.  I take all people who go through either door gets a link with both races.  Lanfear went through the Eelfinn door.

That is not even close to the point.

How?

Read Mats thoughts in KOD about how the link and the memories work.

Chapter 10, towards end of chapter?

or Chapter 4, between middle & end of chapter?

or both?

 

[Majsju]

As for the finns ability to upload memories, first they need to gather them. And that gathering is done by establishing a link with people.

Lanfear's memories are the memories that Cyndane has.  I take all people who go through either door gets a link with both races.  Lanfear went through the Eelfinn door.

That is not even close to the point.

How?

Read Mats thoughts in KOD about how the link and the memories work.

Chapter 10, towards end of chapter?

or Chapter 4, between middle & end of chapter?

or both?

 

 

Neither. Try inbetween.

[mb]

Chapter 8, between middle and end of chapter?

 

[Majsju]

Bingo, we have a, not quite winner, but at least not the last one to finish the race...

[mb]

I read (and re-read) the passage some time before I made the post.  I do not see how my post contradicts the passage.

 

[rubbernilly]

I vote for the Lanfear Was Artificially Enhanced explanation.

 

Cyndane is Lanfear, transmigrated by the DO.

Her power is back to what it used to be before she became artificially enhanced (by the Finn).

 

There is a wider explanation available, and I just typed up a slightly longer explanation of this the other day on a related thread. For this thread, I'll just trust that everyone understands the theory.

 

If you don't know the theory, post back. Otherwise, I'm just saying that's where my vote/expectation is.

[mellojoe]

Her power is back to what it used to be before she became artificially enhanced (by the Finn).

Can anyone elaborate on this?  When and how did Lanfear increase her power?

[shinerfan]

Her power is back to what it used to be before she became artificially enhanced (by the Finn).

Can anyone elaborate on this?  When and how did Lanfear increase her power?

 

 

During the cleansing of saidin, Cyndane/Lanfear encounters Alivia, who is using Nynaeve's bracelet and rings angreal, and Cyndane remarks that Alivia must be using an angreal because she is even stronger than Lanfear was before she was held by the Finns and that is impossible. This has led to speculation that Lanfear's strength was somehow enhanced by the DO. I think its more likely that she was somehow stilled on the other side of the doorway and then healed by a woman but not to her former strength. Its all just speculation though, either theory seems to fit.

[mellojoe]

Her power is back to what it used to be before she became artificially enhanced (by the Finn).

Can anyone elaborate on this?  When and how did Lanfear increase her power?

 

 

During the cleansing of saidin, Cyndane/Lanfear encounters Alivia, who is using Nynaeve's bracelet and rings angreal, and Cyndane remarks that Alivia must be using an angreal because she is even stronger than Lanfear was before she was held by the Finns and that is impossible. This has led to speculation that Lanfear's strength was somehow enhanced by the DO. I think its more likely that she was somehow stilled on the other side of the doorway and then healed by a woman but not to her former strength. Its all just speculation though, either theory seems to fit.

Oh, I took it the other way.  Not that Lanfear was artifically STRONGER, but that Cyndane was now weaker.  If Lanfear knew Alivia (when she was Lanfear) then she would have known their relative strengths toward each other.  Now as she sees her again, she realizes how much power Alivia was using, and she remembers that it was more than Lanfear could hold.

 

Thus Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear. 

 

I never caught any part that said that Lanfear had some sort of BOOST in Power...

[rubbernilly]

OK, I went out and found the quick write up of this that I did the other day. If this doesn't explain it (at least my position), I can elaborate more.

 

In brief:

Mierin has some considerable strength

Mierin gets augmented (I say by the Finn)

Mierin takes the name Lanfear

Lanfear is stilled and killed

Cyndane, as Lanfear returned, is back to Mierin's base strength

 

Now, the slightly longer version, with references to what seems to point to this explanation:

 

I think that she was mad for power in the AoL. Enter LTT, the most powerful, most influential channeler in the world. She has an infatuation with him leading to a love affair. He kicks her to the curb when he realizes what she is about (power).

 

Spurned, she goes through the gate to Finnland and wishes to be as strong in the Power as any woman can be.

 

[unfortunately, she is still not as strong as LTT, nor even Demandred or Ishamael (or whatever their names were before they swore to the shadow and changed them... I'm too lazy to look them up right now). I posit that this is one of the things that sets her on the path to drill the Bore. She is looking for a new source of channeling that men and women can work equally. She is, in effect, looking for more power... something to make her stronger.]

 

She goes on, hiding her newfound enhanced [strength] in the OP so that no one in the AoL will realize what she did. (I believe there is a quote somewhere to support this--[that she hid her ability almost constantly]).

 

When Moiraine tackles her through the gate, Lanfear could only come along because it was Moiraine's first trip through, and Moiraine had a death grip on her. [she was pulled in, effectively.]

 

Perhaps stilled because of Moiraine wrestling the angreal away from her, she is defenseless in Finnland. The Finns, realizing it is her second time through, kill her.

 

The DO resets her in a new body. But, because she died, her power reset itself to her pre-enhancement level.

 

Her whole statement in WH: With the Choeden Kal supports this notion. She says, of Alivia's strength, that Alivia appeared more powerful than she (Lanfear/Cyndane) herself had been before the Finn had held her... and she calls that impossible except (she correctly deduces) with the aide of angreal. She knows no woman could be more powerful than she had been as Lanfear... knows it with a certainty that lets her deduce Alivia's use of angreal.

 

[Obviously (according to the theory), she knows that Alivia could not be that strong because her initial enhancement told her what the upper limit for a woman's strength would be.)

[Leatherleaf]

I've heard the Mierin Boosted theory before and I quite like it. Of course, Cyndane's quote, "impossible," could just be her ginormous ego. But I lean towards believing the Boosted theory is correct. It explains things quite well, although it does rely on some 'ifs.'

[ed2funy]

But if the Finn's killed her, how did the DO 'reset' her?

 

AS (which Lanfear was) have 'known' many things. We see how that worked out for them.

Isn't there someone stronger than Alivia? I don't remember.

[water_seeker]

I still say Cyndane/Lanfear just has a HUGE ego and she can't believe anyone of this age (where they're all weak) could have more power than the most powerful woman of a powerful age had.

[Majsju]

But if the Finn's killed her, how did the DO 'reset' her?

 

 

 

Same way the DO 'reset' Ishamael, Balthamel and Aginor.

[rubbernilly]

Just wanted to address this point from earlier in the thread since it has some relevance to our discussion now...

 

Luckers said:

Transmigration (which is not the same as reincarnation) likely does not undo stilling or burning out given all the other Transmigrated Forsaken retained their exact strength--which means in all probability the channeling state remains constant accross the transmigrational bridge. Brandon stated he was pretty sure that would be the case, they he wanted to check with Maria to make a 100%.

 

Couple of things here. First, it isn't completely necessary to the theory that Lanfear be stilled when she fell through the gate. She could have been shielded by Moiraine during that moment of confusion after losing control of the angreal. She might have completely lost her hold on the source for a moment, allowing Moiraine to shield her. An interesting side effect of that might be what part Lanfear might have played in Moiraine's negotiations. Was Lanfear part of the bargain that Moiraine made? Eh.

 

What is important to the theory is that Lanfear died after being held for a time by the Finn.

 

Now, if she was stilled on the other side... well, I don't buy that the evidence regarding other transmigrated Forsaken has any bearing on what happened to Lanfear. I mean, we have never sen a stilled Forsaken transmigrated, nor have we seen transmigrated a Forsaken that we would have considered artificially enhanced. If all we have is a standard powered Forsaken die and come back as that same standard powered Forsaken, we don't really have anything to go on for what would happen to an artificially-enhanced, stilled Forsaken.

[ed2funy]

Maj: I thought it has been stated the DO cannot get souls from people in finnland.

If not, sorry, but I tyink it was.

[Majsju]

Maj: I thought it has been stated the DO cannot get souls from people in finnland.

If not, sorry, but I tyink it was.

 

Rather close to the contrary, the finns does not have the ability to "hold" souls.

[ed2funy]

Ok....sorry....I could have sworn. :-\

Ignore me then. ;D

[Majsju]

 

Ignore me then. ;D

 

Always do. Including now, I did not really reply to you, you just think I did ;D

[ed2funy]

I could swear someone was having a discussion of some sort.

::)

[rubbernilly]

Here's hoping that when Moiraine is rescued that she can shed some light on what happened to Lanfear... at least immediately falling through the gateway. Having that piece of knowledge could help to settle the question of Lanfear's possible augmentations. Much better if Moiraine pulled out some tidbit of knowledge about why her strength might be different (like relating how the Finn might have said something to Lanfear like, "Unwise to come here again. The bargain is fulfilled. We gave you power." Even just saying, "Unwise to come here again," could tell us that Mierin had gone there once, already).

 

I just hope this isn't one of the "loose threads" RJ said he intended to leave loose at the end of the story.