Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[nool]

Ta! That's what I thought. And the rest of the rebels believe it true and are thus not lying.

[Yorkie]

Who is Rands Brother/Half Brother? mentioned in tSR [Chapter 34: He Who Comes With the Dawn]

[Whizbang]

Galad

[yoniy0]

Who is Rands Brother/Half Brother? mentioned in tSR [Chapter 34: He Who Comes With the Dawn]

Galad, whose mother was also Tigraine, AKA Shaiel.

 

EDIT: Bravo Whizbang.

Edited October 18, 2012 by yoniy0

[Yorkie]

I feel so stupid ... lol missed that :)

[Finnssss22]

I feel so stupid ... lol missed that :)

 

Don't feel bad, we don't actually find that out until LoC-16 in a kind of off hand conversation with Dyelin.

[Mulk]

yeah; though apparently Rand and Luc/Isam are the only ones who actually know that Rand's mom was Tigraine. The Aiel don't know who she was in the wetlands, no one in the wetlands knew where she went, and Rand didn't tell anyone as far as we know. Of course, that leaves open to question how Luc found out.

[Amandera]

A few possibilities:

• Gitara may have Foretold it.
  
• Elayne, Dyelin, Amys all think Rand looks a lot like Tigraine. Egwene (and Perrin?) thinks he looks like Luc.
  
• Luc killed Janduin. He may have learned Rand was born on the slope of Dragonmount and made the connection from the Karaethon Cycle.
  

[Whizbang]

Evidently he looks enough like her, though, for people to comment on it, despite the difference in sexes and the added Aiel blood. Elayne comments that he looks like the pictures of Tigraine she had seen. I don't remember who else said something similar, but I am pretty sure a few people say so independantly.

 

Maybe Luc knew where Tigraine went. Didn't he head to the blight at the same time that TIgraine went to the waste, at the prompting of Gitara Moroso? *looks it up* I guess he left a year or two before. Still, he would recognize her son, I'd think, if even strangers comment on the similarity.

[yoniy0]

that leaves open to question how Luc found out.

More than likely, from his superiors. There are many ways in which the Shadow could've learned of it.

 

As long as we're talking about it, we don't actually know whether Moiraine figured it out or not. She surely could've, even without the assumption that she's met Tigraine (which, quire frankly, I find all but certain).

[Finnssss22]

that leaves open to question how Luc found out.

More than likely, from his superiors. There are many ways in which the Shadow could've learned of it.

 

As long as we're talking about it, we don't actually know whether Moiraine figured it out or not. She surely could've, even without the assumption that she's met Tigraine (which, quire frankly, I find all but certain).

 

Definitely. I have no doubt at all that Mo was at Tigraine and Taringail's wedding. That would of been a huge deal for both countries at the time. Mo would have been in her early to mid teens at the time and didn't go to the White Tower until the same year that Tigraine took off for the Waste.

[Hagazussa]

Ok we know that the age someone with the spark will begin to channel is ca early teens to early twenties for women and late teens to early thirties for men, but what about those who can learn, we also know that you can have someone much older than that who can be discovered to be able to learn, in theory you could have a 90 year old of either gender who is discovered to be able to learn, my question then is do it work the other way as well, could you have someone much younger than the normal age of manifestation for their gender who is discovered. What happens if you take a six year old boy with a ability learn and plop him down in front of Taim and test him? Will his ability then be discovered or will there just be nothing there until he is older. I think someone further up in this thread mentioned that some of the Two Rivers boys at the black Tower where about 14 which would be far below the age of manifestation for a male channeler if that is correct.

 

Also what about talents that only show up in channelers but which the individual do not actively need to channel to use, like Dreaming, could that manifest before the actual ability to channel do?

[MasterAblar]

Ok we know that the age someone with the spark will begin to channel is ca early teens to early twenties for women and late teens to early thirties for men, but what about those who can learn, we also know that you can have someone much older than that who can be discovered to be able to learn, in theory you could have a 90 year old of either gender who is discovered to be able to learn, my question then is do it work the other way as well, could you have someone much younger than the normal age of manifestation for their gender who is discovered. What happens if you take a six year old boy with a ability learn and plop him down in front of Taim and test him? Will his ability then be discovered or will there just be nothing there until he is older. I think someone further up in this thread mentioned that some of the Two Rivers boys at the black Tower where about 14 which would be far below the age of manifestation for a male channeler if that is correct.

 

Also what about talents that only show up in channelers but which the individual do not actively need to channel to use, like Dreaming, could that manifest before the actual ability to channel do?

 

The ability to channel can probably be discovered in even a baby I imagine. Verin and Alanna also discovered a few girls in the Two Rivers who were too young to take to the WT. Theoretically, they can start channelling as soon it is decided that they're ready, they don't need to wait for the "sparking" age, although obviously you would need a certain maturity to be taught how to channel. Like you said the TR boys are channelling at 14 which is way before a sparker would start channelling for a man.

 

Talents require the ability to channel to be used. The way I see it is, learners or sparkers aren't connected to the source yet, but have the potential to be. Their Talents (like seeing the taveren glow) won't be activated until they've started channelling.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Master Ablar

[Mulk]

Point taken about Luc and Moiraine knowing or having the possibility of knowing. I hadn't given either much thought. Though, I doubt Moiraine knew Tigraine well enough to see her features in Rand as clearly as the Aiel and the Caemlyn folk who knew Tigraine better did. Part of me wants to argue that when Tigraine disappeared, Moiraine probably put her out of her mind...UNLESS and it's a big one, unless Gitara told her (or the Amyrlin at the time and that Amyrlin then told Siuan and Moiraine since they witnessed Gitara's last foretelling) what her foretelling to Tigraine was. If you know that, it's easy to piece together.

 

I wonder if it ever is going to be common knowledge. You'd think so - I have to think Rand will eventually tell Galad and once that happens it's probably going to be out of the bag.

[Whizbang]

Moiraine was most likely not told about Tigraine, else she would have connected some dots much sooner, I think.

 

Tigraine went to the Aiel.

Rand looks like Tigraine and an Aiel.

Therefore, Rand was not born in the Two Rivers.

Therefore, she doesn't need Mat or Perrin.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Whizbang

[yoniy0]

Part of me wants to argue that when Tigraine disappeared, Moiraine probably put her out of her mind...UNLESS and it's a big one, unless Gitara told her (or the Amyrlin at the time and that Amyrlin then told Siuan and Moiraine since they witnessed Gitara's last foretelling) what her foretelling to Tigraine was.

Gitara would hardly tell an Accepted about that, but that's beside the point. Moiraine knows the rumors of Gitara's involvement in Tigraine's disappearance. She knows some of what Gitara was doing when she died. She's Tigraine sister-in-law. When she heard of a golden-haired wetlander who came to the Waste (at exactly the same time), speaking of a son left behind and a husband she didn't love, she could very well have connected the dots. Just like the readers could, only we don't have the benefit of knowing Tigraine's and Rand's faces.

[Whizbang]

Once she was told about Shaiel by the Wise Ones, yes, she would have very easily figured it out. Before that, however, Tigraine had just disappeared and no one knew where or how. She just wandered off one day and, for all anyone knew, was killed by bandits or jumped off a cliff. Too thin of a thread to be sure of Rand over the others. After the company went to the Waste, however, Moiraine would have had no doubt on Rand's lineage.

[Mulk]

we don't know if she connected the dots or not because we never see her thoughts on the matter, though if pressed I probably would agree that she eventually figured it out. And I know Gitara likely would not tell an Accepted, which is why I threw in there that the Amyrlin of the time might have told them since they knew of the Dragon's rebirth and were going to be working toward finding him. I'm thinking through these things as I write, can you tell? :D

 

In retrospect, I kinda chalk up neither Fain nor Moiraine knowing almost immediately that Rand was their guy to an early bookism. Lan and Moiraine should know Aiel on sight and know that Rand can't be from around there given his great height and general physical appearance when (for a man) he's not full grown yet; average guys don't stop developing physically until 25 or so. Fain is not likely experienced with Aiel; nonetheless the Dark One and those attached to him would likely be able to realize that just on appearance or description one of these things does not belong. They SHOULD know, even if they don't make the connection on Tigraine (and I'm not saying there's reason that they should at that point, mind), that Rand isn't like the rest of the Two Rivers and thus is the one to focus on.

[Hagazussa]

The ability to channel can probably be discovered in even a baby I imagine. Verin and Alanna also discovered a few girls in the Two Rivers who were too young to take to the WT. Theoretically, they can start channelling as soon it is decided that they're ready, they don't need to wait for the "sparking" age, although obviously you would need a certain maturity to be taught how to channel. Like you said the TR boys are channelling at 14 which is way before a sparker would start channelling for a man.

 

Talents require the ability to channel to be used. The way I see it is, learners or sparkers aren't connected to the source yet, but have the potential to be. Their Talents (like seeing the taveren glow) won't be activated until they've started channelling.

 

I agree this is how I understand it to, that someone who can learn can be taught before the age someone with the spark would manifest the ability, it is just that if someone is born with the spark it is a certain span of time in which they will start channeling no matter what. I do not know about a baby though, if I do not remember it wrong both tests involved the candidate being able to at least to some degree focus, at least the male one do, but as soon as a child is able to focus on something for a while one should be able to test them.

 

I also agree that a potential channeler who have not activated their ability yet would count as a non channeler, the connection is not yet made it just have the potential to be made. This lead me to another question though, what happens if you try to shield someone who have the potential to channel but who have not developed the ability yet, or for that matter what happens if you try to shield someone who can not channel. Also would the one making a shield know if the shield is actually holding anything unless the one shielded starts to resist and "move around" in the shield or actually resist it? I mean let us say we have a random group of Reds out man hunting, they find a good suspect and shield him, if he then do nothing, do not strain against the shield and do not resist it and just give his most innocent smile would the Reds then know if they are actually shielding someone or if they are holding a useless weave on a mundane?

 

When Nyn heals Logain the Aes Sedai decides to try to shield him just until they are sure about whatever or not she is telling the truth, this indicates that whatever or not he could channel they could shield him and actually doing so do not convince them, though Nyn when she holds a shield on him can feel him moving about in it, stretching his spiritual parts as it where, but if he just did nothing would she have felt that she was holding anything? Or to make the question very simple, can a channeler find out if someone of the opposite gender is a channeler by trying to shield them?

[Whizbang]

I think that a shield can be placed on a mundane, though without any evidence to back it up. It would be totally useless, of course, but possible. Reds do attempt to sever Elyas, after all. It did nothing, because he can't channel, but the weaves themselves probably passed between Elyas and the source. He just doesn't have the ability to reach out and sieze Saidin, or even sense it. Shielding a learner, or even a sparker, before they learn to channel would be a great way to prevent them from ever channeling, as they wouldn't develope the psychic muscle to break the shield. This may just be a great way to save a sparker before you can teach them, though honestly it might just be easier to gently guide them to their first channeling. But if a man is sure that a woman is a sparker, it might be best to shield her until he can bring her to a female who can teach her, and vice versa.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Whizbang

[Hagazussa]

This is speculation but yes it do seam like a shield can be placed on a mundane and just sit there and do nothing, they question is that if the person shielded is a channeler would the one handling the shield feel it? Yes we have seen that if someone resist a shield either one already in place or as it go in then that will be felt, but let us say a male channeler is trying to avoid detection and just do nothing, let the shield go into place and do not resist, would a woman holding a shield on him be able to feel any difference between holding him and holding a useless shield on a mundane? Also the same go for a severing weave which in most cases are described as a sharp shield, if a channeler try to sever someone who cannot channel will they notice that there is nothing there or is it just the lack of the subject falling screaming to the ground that will tell them that they are wasting their efforts? Or alternately can they feel a severing weave hitting a connection to the One Power? Or is all they can do to wave around with a sharp Spirit weave and hope they hit something and watch the subject's reaction to see if they where successful or not?

 

But if a man is sure that a woman is a sparker, it might be best to shield her until he can bring her to a female who can teach her, and vice versa.

 

This might be a bad idea if done any other time that in the most recent time in the books, I can just see a male channeler trying to explain to an Aes Sedai how he had found a woman with the spark so he shielded her to keep her safe and are delivering her to the Aes Sedai for training. :P

[Whizbang]

If the girl/woman is right on the brink of her first channel (as Egwene was when Moiraine found her), then shielding her would be the best option, rather than let her potentially die from ignorantly channeling. Same goes for a man.

 

Seems to me that Gentling was entirely unnecessary. If you find the boy before he has developed any skill, form a circle of 13 with maybe an angreal or two in the mix, create a strong shield around the boy, tie it off and walk away, maybe check up every now and then. The inexperienced boy would be unable to channel, and so not get tainted. They would not be able to break the shield because their psychic muscle would be weak from lack of use. They would not get all depressed from being severed, since shielding causes no permenant damage. They would then move on to lead productive lives and also breed (so no culling affect). Maybe a few who were farther along would be able to sense Saidin, and so for them it would be a trial, but they'd get used to it. Just seems to be the better method. If a man somehow learns to channel and causes mischief, then sure, gentle them, especially if they proclaimed themselves as Dragons, or are especially powerful or showing tendencies of madness.

 

Or is all they can do to wave around with a sharp Spirit weave and hope they hit something and watch the subject's reaction to see if they where successful or not?

It has been described that the channeler feels a resistance when they attempt to shield someone who is holding the OP. If they are strong, this resistance may be enough to block the shield by itself, without any action on the part of the shieldee (say, if Soriela tried to shield Nyn). Other than that, I am not sure there is any sensation of the shield. It has been described that not even the shieldee notices the shield until they try to channel.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Whizbang

[Hagazussa]

If the girl/woman is right on the brink of her first channel (as Egwene was when Moiraine found her), then shielding her would be the best option, rather than let her potentially die from ignorantly channeling. Same goes for a man.

 

I completely agree, my comment was just that it might not be wise for the man in question to shield said spark gifted newbie channeler and hand her over to the Aes Sedai as they might be less than friendly towards him.

 

Seems to me that Gentling was entirely unnecessary. If you find the boy before he has developed any skill, form a circle of 13 with maybe an angreal or two in the mix, create a strong shield around the boy, tie it off and walk away, maybe check up every now and then. The inexperienced boy would be unable to channel, and so not get tainted. They would not be able to break the shield because their psychic muscle would be weak from lack of use. They would not get all depressed from being severed, since shielding causes no permenant damage. They would then move on to lead productive lives and also breed (so no culling affect).

 

Yes that should actually work, hell if they wanted to be sure they could just keep said men at the Tower, give them jobs and so on so they could check that the shield was in place every now and again, the channeler such not take much ill effect from a permanent shield if they had never started to channel properly. The problem is finding a male channeler before he have developed the ability. Female channelers can not feel a male channeler and the only way the Aes Sedai have to detect one is to either see what he is doing as in oh s*** that man just tossed a fireball at me, or to use that weave the Reds have to detect male weave residues and by that time the man would have already started channeling enough to weave and then a permanent shield would be a problem, though probably far less of a problem than gentling, though there is always the danger that he would then find a way to break free. The only way to detect a someone with the spark before they start channeling consciously would probably be something like Cads artifacts, so yes it is a good idea but not easy to put into practice.

 

Maybe a few who were farther along would be able to sense Saidin, and so for them it would be a trial, but they'd get used to it. Just seems to be the better method.

 

If someone have started channeling then being permanently shielded would be rather rough to put it mildly but yes that would leave them with the hope that the shield would be removed one day so it would be far kinder than gentling.

 

It has been described that the channeler feels a resistance when they attempt to shield someone who is holding the OP. If they are strong, this resistance may be enough to block the shield by itself, without any action on the part of the shieldee (say, if Soriela tried to shield Nyn). Other than that, I am not sure there is any sensation of the shield. It has been described that not even the shieldee notices the shield until they try to channel.

 

Someone who is shielded do not feel the shield unless they try to channel or if they where channeling when the shield was put in place then they feel like they have been suddenly dropped into ice cold water. Also yes when someone is holding the Power shielding them is much more difficult and such resistance will be felt, but you are saying that if a random male channeler just sat having his dinner and someone tried to shield him and he did not resist then either he nor the one holding the shield would feel anything until he stated resisting?

[Finnssss22]

Once she was told about Shaiel by the Wise Ones, yes, she would have very easily figured it out. Before that, however, Tigraine had just disappeared and no one knew where or how. She just wandered off one day and, for all anyone knew, was killed by bandits or jumped off a cliff. Too thin of a thread to be sure of Rand over the others. After the company went to the Waste, however, Moiraine would have had no doubt on Rand's lineage.

 

 

Moiraine wasn't actually told about Shaiel by the Wise Ones, not on screen anyway. That was revealed in the tent while they were all still waiting for her to return from Rhuidean.

All that she was present for was Rand being told that his mother wasn't Aiel, his father was.

Now whether Lan or Egwene related the conversation in the tent to her or the Wise Ones themselves also told her the story afterwards, neither was "on screen" I that I could find or remember.

[Whizbang]

If the girl/woman is right on the brink of her first channel (as Egwene was when Moiraine found her), then shielding her would be the best option, rather than let her potentially die from ignorantly channeling. Same goes for a man.

 

I completely agree, my comment was just that it might not be wise for the man in question to shield said spark gifted newbie channeler and hand her over to the Aes Sedai as they might be less than friendly towards him.

Hopefully male/female relations will improve, now that the taint is gone.

 

Seems to me that Gentling was entirely unnecessary. If you find the boy before he has developed any skill, form a circle of 13 with maybe an angreal or two in the mix, create a strong shield around the boy, tie it off and walk away, maybe check up every now and then. The inexperienced boy would be unable to channel, and so not get tainted. They would not be able to break the shield because their psychic muscle would be weak from lack of use. They would not get all depressed from being severed, since shielding causes no permenant damage. They would then move on to lead productive lives and also breed (so no culling affect).

 

Yes that should actually work, hell if they wanted to be sure they could just keep said men at the Tower, give them jobs and so on so they could check that the shield was in place every now and again, the channeler such not take much ill effect from a permanent shield if they had never started to channel properly. The problem is finding a male channeler before he have developed the ability. Female channelers can not feel a male channeler and the only way the Aes Sedai have to detect one is to either see what he is doing as in oh s*** that man just tossed a fireball at me, or to use that weave the Reds have to detect male weave residues and by that time the man would have already started channeling enough to weave and then a permanent shield would be a problem, though probably far less of a problem than gentling, though there is always the danger that he would then find a way to break free. The only way to detect a someone with the spark before they start channeling consciously would probably be something like Cads artifacts, so yes it is a good idea but not easy to put into practice.

Make them warders. That'd keep them close and easy to track down if they got away. As for detecting them, yeah, ter'Angreal would need to be involved, and maybe mapping blood lines to help identify potentials. Still, super difficult and work intensive. Aes Sedai have been shown to be fairly lazy when it comes to menial work, so it would take a strong Amerlyn or 6 to force them to do it until it became tradition.

 

Maybe a few who were farther along would be able to sense Saidin, and so for them it would be a trial, but they'd get used to it. Just seems to be the better method.

 

If someone have started channeling then being permanently shielded would be rather rough to put it mildly but yes that would leave them with the hope that the shield would be removed one day so it would be far kinder than gentling.

Plus, gentling doesn't get rid of the sense of Saidin, just the ability to actually touch it. So, it would be a 1 to 1 comparison. The bonus is, I believe, that severing actually causes damage. The depression is not merely a symptom of not being able to touch the OP, but a result of physical and spiritual trauma.

 

It has been described that the channeler feels a resistance when they attempt to shield someone who is holding the OP. If they are strong, this resistance may be enough to block the shield by itself, without any action on the part of the shieldee (say, if Soriela tried to shield Nyn). Other than that, I am not sure there is any sensation of the shield. It has been described that not even the shieldee notices the shield until they try to channel.

 

Someone who is shielded do not feel the shield unless they try to channel or if they where channeling when the shield was put in place then they feel like they have been suddenly dropped into ice cold water. Also yes when someone is holding the Power shielding them is much more difficult and such resistance will be felt, but you are saying that if a random male channeler just sat having his dinner and someone tried to shield him and he did not resist then either he nor the one holding the shield would feel anything until he stated resisting?

This is still unclear. When people are shielded without being aware of it, the shielder seems to be fairly confident that the shield is in place. So, if the shielder knows the shieldee CAN channel, there seems to be no doubt. The doubt only comes into play if the shielder does not know if the shieldee can actually channel. In cases of gentling, they would be sure that the weave itself was functioning, and in the right place, so whether or not the male can actually channel is a moot point. The end result is they cannot channel, whether they were able to before or not. So, when in doubt, sever. If you do not want a permenant solution, and are unsure, then you'll either have to take the chance they cannot channel, or maintain the shield until you are ready to release them.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Whizbang