Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Vardar]

This could open up new possibilities for how food and logistics are dealt with in the Blight. It takes some degree of sophistication to breed,raise, and feed warhorses. No way that raids into the Borderlands would provide enough horses to mount thousands and thousands of Fades.

 

To K.I.S.S., I'll just chalk this up as a bookism. Horses and fantasy go together like swords and fantasy. The bad guys need a set of wheels to get around also.

 

I think at one point, when we are at Shayol Ghul, we see that there are some shadow forgers that make the Fades' swords using souls. It seems reasonable that these forgers also can tame horses.

Either book 5 or 6 - you're right. Demandred is called to Shayol Ghul and witnesses some Borderlanders being taken to the forge. The last thing the forgers do to the swords is take a life with them.

 

Nope. Well, yes, but the forgers are mindless constructs who can't venture far from their caves and who's only purpose is to make those weapons.

Yeah, that's true. I see, you mean his comment about them also training horses? Right, apparently, they can't do that but maybe they have horse trainer constructs. Who knows?

 

HA! That's a very amusing idea to me. I always mentally picture the constructs as huge hulking monsterous beings with no feelings, no emotions who grab bodies and sling them about before quenching a newly made blade in their hearts.

 

I took that image and tried to apply it to raising horses. Hahahahaa I'm dying over here...

 

That being said you may be correct.

[mb]

The trollocs and fades stole them from the Rohirrim.

Rohirrim, wrong series. Also, they were somewhat in the southeast area of the land.

 

Horses and fantasy go together like swords and fantasy.

Magician's Nephew in the Narnia series does not have swords and Voyage of the Dawn Treader in same series does not have horses. Though the 5 other books of that series do have both.

Star Wars might be considered at least partly fantasy (ie the Force); that series does not have horses, and light sabers replace swords.

Also, the Time Quintet series does not have either. Its centaur and unicorns I do not count as horses.

Edited August 24, 2012 by mb

[yoniy0]

Didn't get the shadow-slide from tEotW though Yoni, I thought he'd just suddenly emerged from the trees or something like that. I'll look it up later.

I was talking about the first Fade Rand saw:

"There, down the... Rand's words trailed off as he turned to point. The road behind was empty. Disbelieving, he stared into the forest on both sides of the road. Bare-branched trees offered no hiding place, but there was not a glimmer of horse or horseman. He met his father's questioning gaze. "He was there. A man in a black cloak, on a black horse."

But I was mistaken. Tam wanted to check for footprints, but Rand told him not to bother, so we don't know whether or not that Fade left any.

[Maleshub]

I think there are battle scenes where Fades were killed and their horses survived them in full physical form.

I'd love to see that quote, if you can.

 

I'll try But if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. And it would be easier if you can refute my presumption if you're certain that the horses are not real.

 

There's one here:

 

Hurriedly, Rand searched for more targets, but he realized that Lews Therin had stopped channeling. He could still feel the goose bumps that told him Cadsuane and Alivia held the Power, still feel saidin in Logain. but the other man was weaving no more webs either. Outside, the ground lay carpeted with bodies and parts of bodies from the fields almost to the manor house walls. Within paces of them. A few horses belonging to Myrddraal still stood, one holding up a foreleg as if it were broken. A headless Myrddraal staggered about, flailing wildly with its sword, and here and there a Trolloc jerked or tried to lift itself and failed, but nothing else moved.

 

PS—This passage just makes me laugh, especially the foreleg.

 

Thank you for the quote, Terez.

 

That's true but we never hear of a Fade horse slipping through shadows either. We only ever see Fades themselves do this.

Actually, the first time we see a Fade it appears to use that very ability, and that Fade was mounted. Of course, if the horse is capable of moving completely silently, that might be another explanation, but the lack of footprints is something else to consider.

 

I think there are battle scenes where Fades were killed and their horses survived them in full physical form.

I'd love to see that quote, if you can.

 

Perrin mentions one too in the Pre-Battle for two rivers. When the 3 fades and 500 Trollocs attack. He mentioned the dead horses.

 

I didn't catch the fact that the horses are silent, although now that Elci brings it up, I do seem to remember. Now I'l pay more attention and go back some.

 

I was thinking of checking the Two-Rivers battle for an example. But Terez's gem above is evidence enough that Fades' horses are real horses.

[Terez]

That's true but we never hear of a Fade horse slipping through shadows either. We only ever see Fades themselves do this.

 

Just wanted to add, we've even seen a Fade transport a human this way: Moghedien was hauled through the shadows by Shaidar Haran in ACOS. He ordered her to keep her eyes closed while he was doing it, for whatever reason.

[yoniy0]

He ordered her to keep her eyes closed while he was doing it, for whatever reason.

And therefore we don't know that it really was his shadow-traveling ability that he used there.

[Vardar]

Yea Perrin hamstrung a horse in the last Battle for TR. Just noticed that too. He didn't note it screaming however...

 

That being said, is Avi a dreamwalker?

 

Chapter 50, The Shadow Rising, Avi tells Rand :I cannot enter the dream without one of them helping me. (Speaking of the wise ones)

However Chapter 52, Amys tells Ny "We would not teach you if we knew how," Amys said hitching her shawl angirly. "It is an evil thing you ask, Nynaeve Sedai"

 

Ny asked "Can I bring her into the World of Dreams?

 

So either Avi is a dreamwalker in training, or they dragged her in with them. But they said no one must ever be brought into the dream. They didn;t say, against their will, they just said no one.

[yoniy0]

Well, firstly about the horses - of course they're corporeal, after all the Myrddraal are themselves.

 

About dreaming -- there might be a difference between guiding someone into it, helping them along, and dragging someone in unawares. The first requires active participation, the second doesn't.

[Vardar]

Well, firstly about the horses - of course they're corporeal, after all the Myrddraal are themselves.

 

About dreaming -- there might be a difference between guiding someone into it, helping them along, and dragging someone in unawares. The first requires active participation, the second doesn't.

 

That's what I thought, but her exact words were we never bring anyone into the dream. It's not to be done because they are helpless.

[Vardar]

Hey Yoni (Or whoever)

 

Random question: Why did Avi hate Rand so much? (Was it because she saw that she would fall in love with him and she didn't want too)

[Barid Bel Medar]

Hey Yoni (Or whoever)

 

Random question: Why did Avi hate Rand so much? (Was it because she saw that she would fall in love with him and she didn't want too)

 

Pretty much. It was a mixture of things, but mainly because she had promised Elayne to "watch" Rand for her, then subsequently saw her future + fell in love with him. It made all sorts of problems with ji'e'toh and her having to do crap that she didn't want because of Rand.

[Clouded]

Hey Yoni (Or whoever)

 

Random question: Why did Avi hate Rand so much? (Was it because she saw that she would fall in love with him and she didn't want too)

 

That is my interpretation. Before entering the ring, Aviendha is neutral to Rand al'Thor. Then she goes through the rings and when she returns she gives him a scowl of pure hatred. Clearly she saw that she would love Rand al'Thor.

 

The reason Aviendha is so bothered by her impending love for Rand, is a mix of ji'e'toh and a promise. Aviendha is very prickly about her honor. She always pays her dues. So when she promises Elayne that she would watch Rand al'Thor and make sure no woman takes him from her, she means it. But in the rings, she sees that she will violate this promise, not only once, but twice! She will let Rand fall for another woman, and that woman will be her! She blames Rand for this; where else could the blame lay? She does not want to love him, and does not want him to love her. It must be his fault, he must be the cause of it, so she hates him for it.

 

Edit: BBM beat me to it.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Clouded

[Lisa Campbell]

That's true but we never hear of a Fade horse slipping through shadows either. We only ever see Fades themselves do this.

 

Just wanted to add, we've even seen a Fade transport a human this way: Moghedien was hauled through the shadows by Shaidar Haran in ACOS. He ordered her to keep her eyes closed while he was doing it, for whatever reason.

 

In that scene Shadar Haran runs Moghedien at speed towards the presumed shadow near the wall of her cell. That indicates to me that a bit of momentum is required to "pass through". How does a Fade get a horse to run with it's eyes closed? I think that transporting others that way may be a talent of Shadar's but I also think we'll never find out.

 

Edited to add: my thoughts are that horseman Fades have to cross the land in a regular fashion (which includes the Ways and Portal Stones) and that they can only shadow slide on their own. Excepting Shadar Haran Super-Fade of course.

Edited August 24, 2012 by YouMayCallMeElci

[thisguy]

That's true but we never hear of a Fade horse slipping through shadows either. We only ever see Fades themselves do this.

 

Just wanted to add, we've even seen a Fade transport a human this way: Moghedien was hauled through the shadows by Shaidar Haran in ACOS. He ordered her to keep her eyes closed while he was doing it, for whatever reason.

 

In that scene Shadar Haran runs Moghedien at speed towards the presumed shadow near the wall of her cell. That indicates to me that a bit of momentum is required to "pass through". How does a Fade get a horse to run with it's eyes closed? I think that transporting others that way may be a talent of Shadar's but I also think we'll never find out.

 

Edited to add: my thoughts are that horseman Fades have to cross the land in a regular fashion (which includes the Ways and Portal Stones) and that they can only shadow slide on their own. Excepting Shadar Haran Super-Fade of course.

Maybe horses don't have to close their eyes, unlike humans.

[Lisa Campbell]

Possibly. Like I said, I don't think we'll end up privy to that information.

 

Also a random thought, I just imagined Bela closing her eyes before Egwene jumped her into the river when fleeing Shadar Logoth. Hehe

[Vardar]

That's true but we never hear of a Fade horse slipping through shadows either. We only ever see Fades themselves do this.

 

Just wanted to add, we've even seen a Fade transport a human this way: Moghedien was hauled through the shadows by Shaidar Haran in ACOS. He ordered her to keep her eyes closed while he was doing it, for whatever reason.

 

In that scene Shadar Haran runs Moghedien at speed towards the presumed shadow near the wall of her cell. That indicates to me that a bit of momentum is required to "pass through". How does a Fade get a horse to run with it's eyes closed? I think that transporting others that way may be a talent of Shadar's but I also think we'll never find out.

 

Edited to add: my thoughts are that horseman Fades have to cross the land in a regular fashion (which includes the Ways and Portal Stones) and that they can only shadow slide on their own. Excepting Shadar Haran Super-Fade of course.

 

I actually never thought about how the Fades travel with their horses. Unless they're riding all the way from the blight with them, there has to be something special about the horses.

[Lisa Campbell]

Well there are Waygates and Portal Stones in the Blight so I don't think they have to cross the whole length and/or breadth of Randland. Most of the time, Fades and Trollocs are acting on the orders of one of the Forsaken. That Forsaken could easily instruct them and then Port them or send them through the ways.

 

For example:

 

Pseudo Sammael is sick of Rand and just wants him dead... He gathers a bunch of Trollocs and Fades and Ports them to near Algarin's manor in Tear (where we know of 4 Portal Stones).

 

The Fade in tEotW could have used the Waygate at Manetheren. A single spy would be more likely to evade Machin Shin than a large group of Shadowspawn.

 

This also makes me wonder about the sudden appearance of several fists chasing Moiraine and co. and forcing them to Shadar Logoth after they left the Two Rivers. That mob could have been Ported there and they did seem to be there out of the blue.

[Vardar]

Well there are Waygates and Portal Stones in the Blight so I don't think they have to cross the whole length and/or breadth of Randland. Most of the time, Fades and Trollocs are acting on the orders of one of the Forsaken. That Forsaken could easily instruct them and then Port them or send them through the ways.

 

For example:

 

Pseudo Sammael is sick of Rand and just wants him dead... He gathers a bunch of Trollocs and Fades and Ports them to near Algarin's manor in Tear (where we know of 4 Portal Stones).

 

The Fade in tEotW could have used the Waygate at Manetheren. A single spy would be more likely to evade Machin Shin than a large group of Shadowspawn.

 

This also makes me wonder about the sudden appearance of several fists chasing Moiraine and co. and forcing them to Shadar Logoth after they left the Two Rivers. That mob could have been Ported there and they did seem to be there out of the blue.

 

Well yea but them using Waygates and Portal stones seems pretty new story wise, but the horses seem like they're known alongside the fades (May just be the impression I get)

[Lisa Campbell]

Not new at all, that's how all the Fades and Trollocs got to the Two Rivers in Perrin's glory days. Perrin got Loial to lock the Waygate remember? Which would have worked out if not for Slayer.

 

Edited to add: Also when Graendal attacked Perrin and Galad, they were using a Portal Stone then to Port the Trollocs in. As RJ (or was it BS?) said, foreshadowing goes back as well as forth.

Edited August 24, 2012 by YouMayCallMeElci

[Vardar]

Not new at all, that's how all the Fades and Trollocs got to the Two Rivers in Perrin's glory days. Perrin got Loial to lock the Waygate remember? Which would have worked out if not for Slayer.

 

Edited to add: Also when Graendal attacked Perrin and Galad, they were using a Portal Stone then to Port the Trollocs in. As RJ (or was it BS?) said, foreshadowing goes back as well as forth.

 

No, I meant new as in pre our story. Them using waygates and portal stones started when Fain came with the trollocs. Before that, I got the impression they really didn't use it, so I suppose the Fade walked cross country with his pony (why would he do that when he could just shadowtravel)

[Tyzack]

Just finish Shadow Rising in my re-read...how does Moggy get out of Nyn's shield? I am assuming she broke it using a similar trick to what Rand did in the box.

[Vardar]

Just finish Shadow Rising in my re-read...how does Moggy get out of Nyn's shield? I am assuming she broke it using a similar trick to what Rand did in the box.

 

Yep. Ny asks her later in Salidar. Tying a shield leaves it weak, to an extent. Apparently if you're good at tying weaves, you can tie it really well. But remember in the same book. Elayne mentions most AS don't know the trick of tying weaves off. (Which I found odd)

[Lisa Campbell]

Not new at all, that's how all the Fades and Trollocs got to the Two Rivers in Perrin's glory days. Perrin got Loial to lock the Waygate remember? Which would have worked out if not for Slayer.

 

Edited to add: Also when Graendal attacked Perrin and Galad, they were using a Portal Stone then to Port the Trollocs in. As RJ (or was it BS?) said, foreshadowing goes back as well as forth.

 

No, I meant new as in pre our story. Them using waygates and portal stones started when Fain came with the trollocs. Before that, I got the impression they really didn't use it, so I suppose the Fade walked cross country with his pony (why would he do that when he could just shadowtravel)

 

Where do you think Fain leaned it from then?

[Terez]

He ordered her to keep her eyes closed while he was doing it, for whatever reason.

And therefore we don't know that it really was his shadow-traveling ability that he used there.

 

Oh, but we do.

[Lisa Campbell]

Paleeeaze explain then. I write databases, don't monitor them... You're a fount of information Terez but why not post a link in the first place instead of what you do first off?