Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Durinax]

The crystal globe shattered of the female one shattered . That's what started the mass suicide

 

Yep.

 

Another question: On the topic of grey men and darkfriends and such, what do grey men/women get from giving up their souls? What benefit do they gain? Are they immortal? Seems like becoming an assassin for the darkside at the price of your soul really blows and no one would take that deal, unless they just LOVED killing randomly. Even then, I can't imagine the shadow would have very many.

they gain the eye slipping past them thing, being considered higher up in the DF ranks (likely)

other than that it would just be whispered promises and likely people wanting the fast track up the ranks.

[Terez]

Crystal globe = Aiel (paralleled by crystal columns)

 

ropes = ji'e'toh

 

23 stars = Council of 22 + Dragon's Blood

 

With the Dragon's Peace, Rand destroys ji'e'toh, the only thing holding the Aiel together. The clan chiefs, the Wise Ones, and Aviendha allow it to happen by not searching for some other purpose for the Aiel in a time of peace.

[Suttree]

The crystal globe shattered of the female one shattered . That's what started the mass suicide

 

Yep.

 

Another question: On the topic of grey men and darkfriends and such, what do grey men/women get from giving up their souls? What benefit do they gain? Are they immortal? Seems like becoming an assassin for the darkside at the price of your soul really blows and no one would take that deal, unless they just LOVED killing randomly. Even then, I can't imagine the shadow would have very many.

they gain the eye slipping past them thing, being considered higher up in the DF ranks (likely)

other than that it would just be whispered promises and likely people wanting the fast track up the ranks.

 

Heavy price, if I recall correctly their souls get taking out of the rebirth pool and "eaten" by he DO.

[Durinax]

The crystal globe shattered of the female one shattered . That's what started the mass suicide

 

Yep.

 

Another question: On the topic of grey men and darkfriends and such, what do grey men/women get from giving up their souls? What benefit do they gain? Are they immortal? Seems like becoming an assassin for the darkside at the price of your soul really blows and no one would take that deal, unless they just LOVED killing randomly. Even then, I can't imagine the shadow would have very many.

they gain the eye slipping past them thing, being considered higher up in the DF ranks (likely)

other than that it would just be whispered promises and likely people wanting the fast track up the ranks.

 

Heavy price, if I recall correctly their souls get taking out of the rebirth pool and "eaten" by he DO.

where do we learn that?

[Suttree]

The crystal globe shattered of the female one shattered . That's what started the mass suicide

 

Yep.

 

Another question: On the topic of grey men and darkfriends and such, what do grey men/women get from giving up their souls? What benefit do they gain? Are they immortal? Seems like becoming an assassin for the darkside at the price of your soul really blows and no one would take that deal, unless they just LOVED killing randomly. Even then, I can't imagine the shadow would have very many.

they gain the eye slipping past them thing, being considered higher up in the DF ranks (likely)

other than that it would just be whispered promises and likely people wanting the fast track up the ranks.

 

Heavy price, if I recall correctly their souls get taking out of the rebirth pool and "eaten" by he DO.

where do we learn that?

 

Here is the quote I remembered...a little different than what I had recalled.

Interview: Apr 7th, 2001

 

Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein (Verbatim)

Kurafire

 

What happens to the soul of someone when he becomes a Gray Man? Is his thread removed from the Pattern, or are threads and souls different things all together?

Robert Jordan

 

 

Err, they are...oh, uhm, no, it is gone. It is gone. And it ceases to exist in any form that you could of as real.

Kurafire

 

So threads and souls are the same thing?

Robert Jordan

 

Err, not the same thing, but they must coexist. The thread can be removed; you die in this world. You die and the soul remains to come again and begin another thread. The soul disappears from this Gray Man, it's gone. Think of the Dark One as having eaten it. It's a fiction, but a convenient fiction for the moment. The thread of the Gray Man remains until the Gray Man dies, physically.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Suttree

[Vardar]

Crystal globe = Aiel (paralleled by crystal columns)

 

ropes = ji'e'toh

 

23 stars = Council of 22 + Dragon's Blood

 

With the Dragon's Peace, Rand destroys ji'e'toh, the only thing holding the Aiel together. The clan chiefs, the Wise Ones, and Aviendha allow it to happen by not searching for some other purpose for the Aiel in a time of peace.

 

Now that is interesting. Council of 22? What is that from? (Nice theory)

 

The crystal globe shattered of the female one shattered . That's what started the mass suicide

 

Yep.

 

Another question: On the topic of grey men and darkfriends and such, what do grey men/women get from giving up their souls? What benefit do they gain? Are they immortal? Seems like becoming an assassin for the darkside at the price of your soul really blows and no one would take that deal, unless they just LOVED killing randomly. Even then, I can't imagine the shadow would have very many.

they gain the eye slipping past them thing, being considered higher up in the DF ranks (likely)

other than that it would just be whispered promises and likely people wanting the fast track up the ranks.

 

Heavy price, if I recall correctly their souls get taking out of the rebirth pool and "eaten" by he DO.

 

That was my point. Seems like it's a lose/lose situation. No real reson to do it.

[TristanWebb]

Well, only the most corrupt and lost in the Shadow do it, so they probably aren't the smartest people in the world anyway.

[Vardar]

Well, only the most corrupt and lost in the Shadow do it, so they probably aren't the smartest people in the world anyway.

 

Man that goes beyond stupidity though.

 

Hey, wanna be hard to notice in a crowd?

yea sure, what do I have to do

give me your soul for all time, you'll never be reborn...

 

Umm, sure why the hell not.

 

 

Another question, has it been confirmed if what Perrin does is really dreaming or not? I mean we know all wolfbrothers can enter TAR, but Perrin see's visions like Eggy's dreams. There has to be a thread on this somewhere.

[Luckers]

Other people are obviously reborn in the series and don't suffer the same way...

 

Yes, but do those people have past life memories?

 

We don't know, though I suspect it's likely. Certainly, we know sometimes that the manifestation of a past life voice can occur, but we have no evidence as yet as to whether the past life memory transfer Rand experiences is normal. The fact that Rand later achieves full reintegration with Lews Therin, when that is in fact cited to be very rare, may well be indicative that the state of tranfer between them is also rare--that being said, I doubt it. I think all those who suffer the manifestation of a past life personality have the memory seepage.

 

But yeah, sorry, we really just don't know yet.

[Terez]

Yes, but we were talking about people who are reborn, which is pretty much everyone. Most of them exhibit no signs of past life memories.

[Luckers]

This is what I mean about semantics and distinctions. You're reading way too much into Semirhage's usage of the word 'real'.

 

I'm not actually 'reading' anything into it. I'm literally just saying... Lady of Pain said the voice was real.

 

Yes, but you said that her statement means that the voice was not just a taint-induced delusion. That's reading something into it, obviously. I choose to interpret her statement as referring to the fact that the memories are real, because otherwise it makes no sense. She also said he was only hearing the voice because he is insane, which contradicts the assertion that the voice is 'real' in the realer sense.

 

Actually I said that she said the voice was real. She does. No reading into it. Here, I'll quote it: "Clearly, he is hearing Lews Therin's voice. It makes no difference that his voice is real, however."

 

Not reading a thing into it. Just reading it. Sorry.

[Terez]

Hard for me to know what "the voice is real" means.

 

The debate has always suffered from semantics issues. The 'realers' are generally people who have a hard time making distinctions, taking the clear reality of Lews Therin's memories too far. It's what RJ intended—readers accepted Rand's interpretation without questioning it really—and the fact that he was able to pull it off was one of his greatest accomplishments, along with hiding Verin's mission in plain sight. You can argue about it all day, but as long as you recognize that 1) Lews Therin's memories were effectively Rand's memories, and 2) the 'voice' and its accompanying delusions were byproducts of taint madness, then you're all good.

 

I don't know about other 'realers' but I questioned Rand's assertions in great detail, and I have little problem with making distinctions. You claim the memories are real. You claim that Rand constructed a personality around those memories, and called it Lews Therin. Thus, you claim that the voice is not real, whilst the memories are.

 

Semirhage claimed that you are wrong. Lews Therin claimed that she rarely lies. This holds true in an analysis of her comments, including those which she should have no basis for knowing outside an abstract understanding of those with Rand's condition, as she stated Graendal provided her with, and thus I agree with Semirhage, Rand and Lews Therin's claims.

 

That's reading into it. You can't claim that her statement means I am wrong without reading into it.

[Luckers]

Yes, of course, my appologies. Semirhage never directly stated that you personally were wrong Terez. My tendency toward the hyperbolic always tends to shoot me in the foot.

 

What she did say was the Lews Therin's voice was real, which was in direct contradiction of your point. Still it was wrong of me to present it in the idea that she directly contradicted you personally, Terez.

 

Still, she did say what she said, which was, and I quote: "his voice is real"

[Arc]

While rereading LoC the other day, two small questions rose while strolling through chapter 22 (heading south), and since i can't remember them having any further importance in the story later on, i'd like some clarity.

 

- Is it known as of yet who and why the tuatha'an caravan found by Vanin was butchered? And is the unfinished message written in the blood of a dying Tinker actually (in)significant?

 

- Later in the chapter Mat got ambushed in the Band's camp by a dozen Aiel dropped of by travelling. Has it been discussed (where pls?)/ is it known who send them, discounting Mat's own speculations on it being Sammael not wanting the Band joining the Army in Tear, cause that just doesn't seem right IMO.

 

Even if Sammael was able to find and gather 12(!) Aiel DF and drop m' of at Mat's Tent, why not just do it yourself, saving effort and risk of failure?

 

Furthermore it seems a bit out of character, as in how Sammael acts (again IMO).

 

True, it could be one more attack send by another forsaken to put the Focus of the dragon on Sammael, or Greandal in aid of Sammael, thinking him possibly nea'blis at the time.

 

Or Sammael might have plucked them from between the Shaido and told them they could avenge Couladin's murderer or some such.

 

But, what if those Aiel were in fact the same 'Aiel' seen in the epilogue of ToM? perhaps channeled there own gateway, as some theories suspect them to be the Aiel male channelers who ventured into the blight.

 

Anyway, can someone point out to me where I might find some more on these two questions, or, if there isn't, clear this up for me?

[TommyRocker]

My simple question, and I have searched to no avail, is this: Are Mat's memories random soldiers and generals, or are they his own past lives? I don't recall if this is ever clarified, or if maybe memories from two separate people living concurrently rule this out.

[Knivy]

they are the memories of all the soldiers that ever visited the finns.

[Vardar]

While rereading LoC the other day, two small questions rose while strolling through chapter 22 (heading south), and since i can't remember them having any further importance in the story later on, i'd like some clarity.

 

- Is it known as of yet who and why the tuatha'an caravan found by Vanin was butchered? And is the unfinished message written in the blood of a dying Tinker actually (in)significant?

 

- Later in the chapter Mat got ambushed in the Band's camp by a dozen Aiel dropped of by travelling. Has it been discussed (where pls?)/ is it known who send them, discounting Mat's own speculations on it being Sammael not wanting the Band joining the Army in Tear, cause that just doesn't seem right IMO.

 

Even if Sammael was able to find and gather 12(!) Aiel DF and drop m' of at Mat's Tent, why not just do it yourself, saving effort and risk of failure?

 

Furthermore it seems a bit out of character, as in how Sammael acts (again IMO).

 

True, it could be one more attack send by another forsaken to put the Focus of the dragon on Sammael, or Greandal in aid of Sammael, thinking him possibly nea'blis at the time.

 

Or Sammael might have plucked them from between the Shaido and told them they could avenge Couladin's murderer or some such.

 

But, what if those Aiel were in fact the same 'Aiel' seen in the epilogue of ToM? perhaps channeled there own gateway, as some theories suspect them to be the Aiel male channelers who ventured into the blight.

 

Anyway, can someone point out to me where I might find some more on these two questions, or, if there isn't, clear this up for me?

 

Luckers just posted a thread on your first question.

 

 

As to the second, when you reach a certain evil villian level, you stop doing things for yourself. It's a classic idea in nearly all stories, (Except for the time where the guy goes "ENOUGH I'LL HANDLE THIS MYSELF) and generally speaking it's just an accepted fact. It even occurs in real life, mob bossees, etc. Basically he's too good to dirty his hands with that pettiness. Anyway, from an attack standpoint, you have to remember, Aiel are an elite fighting force. If an Aiel had no weapon, and you had your sword, at best it's a fair fight. A dozen Aiel could rip thru twice their number of non AIel warriors, without an issue. So dropping 12 aiel off in a tent is a near death sentence on anyone who can't channel. That was the thinking, hell, just the fact that the forsaken who did it used 12 shows he at least thought Mat was dangerous and wanted him taken care of.

 

As to who sent them, I'm not sure we ever get confirmation. I'd like to assume whoever sent the Gray men after him.

[dhammett11]

Crystal globe = Aiel (paralleled by crystal columns)

 

ropes = ji'e'toh

 

23 stars = Council of 22 + Dragon's Blood

 

With the Dragon's Peace, Rand destroys ji'e'toh, the only thing holding the Aiel together. The clan chiefs, the Wise Ones, and Aviendha allow it to happen by not searching for some other purpose for the Aiel in a time of peace.

 

How about 12 wise ones from the twelve clans plus 11 clan chiefs from the clans that have chiefs?

[TommyRocker]

they are the memories of all the soldiers that ever visited the finns.

 

O ok. Do you have a link to where this was revealed?

[Suttree]

they are the memories of all the soldiers that ever visited the finns.

 

O ok. Do you have a link to where this was revealed?

 

 

Question

 

Are all of Mat’s memories from his past lives?

Robert Jordan

 

No, Mat’s “old” memories are not from his past lives at all. The “sickness” he got from the Shadar Logoth dagger resulted in holes in his memory. He found whole stretches of his life that seemed to be missing. When he passed through the “doorframe” ter’angreal in Rhuidean, one of the things he said – not knowing that the rules here were different than in the other ter’angreal he had used – was that he wanted the holes in his memory filled up, meaning that he wanted to recover his own memories. In this place, however, it was not a matter of asking questions and receiving answers, but of striking bargains for what you want. What he received for that particular demand was memories gathered by the people on that side of the ter’angreal, memories from many men, all long dead, from many cultures. And since not everyone passing by has the nerve to journey through a ter’angreal to some other world, the memories he received were those of adventurers and soldiers and men of daring.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Suttree

[TommyRocker]

Excellent, that clears it up nicely. Thanks for the quote!

[Terez]

Yes, of course, my appologies. Semirhage never directly stated that you personally were wrong Terez. My tendency toward the hyperbolic always tends to shoot me in the foot.

 

What she did say was the Lews Therin's voice was real, which was in direct contradiction of your point. Still it was wrong of me to present it in the idea that she directly contradicted you personally, Terez.

 

Still, she did say what she said, which was, and I quote: "his voice is real"

 

How is that in direct contradiction of my point?

[Terez]

Crystal globe = Aiel (paralleled by crystal columns)

 

ropes = ji'e'toh

 

23 stars = Council of 22 + Dragon's Blood

 

With the Dragon's Peace, Rand destroys ji'e'toh, the only thing holding the Aiel together. The clan chiefs, the Wise Ones, and Aviendha allow it to happen by not searching for some other purpose for the Aiel in a time of peace.

 

How about 12 wise ones from the twelve clans plus 11 clan chiefs from the clans that have chiefs?

 

The Council of 22 is one Wise One and one clan chief from each of the remaining clans. Since all of Rand's 11 clans have blood feud with the Shaido, I'm guessing they get destroyed completely.

[dhammett11]

Crystal globe = Aiel (paralleled by crystal columns)

 

ropes = ji'e'toh

 

23 stars = Council of 22 + Dragon's Blood

 

With the Dragon's Peace, Rand destroys ji'e'toh, the only thing holding the Aiel together. The clan chiefs, the Wise Ones, and Aviendha allow it to happen by not searching for some other purpose for the Aiel in a time of peace.

 

How about 12 wise ones from the twelve clans plus 11 clan chiefs from the clans that have chiefs?

 

The Council of 22 is one Wise One and one clan chief from each of the remaining clans. Since all of Rand's 11 clans have blood feud with the Shaido, I'm guessing they get destroyed completely.

 

At that point in the future, certainly. But I'm thinking the 23 stars refer to the present moment around the time of the meeting at Merrilor. There's still plenty of Shaido being led by Therava. It just seems asymmetric to me to have 22 stars refer to 11 wise ones and 11 clan chiefs and then have one star refer to the four children.

[Terez]

I think in this case it refers more to Aviendha, matriarch of the Dragon's Blood. It's a little weak, but better than any of the alternative explanations IMO. I think this is a Brandon dream.