Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Mr Ares]

Well, that makes things so much clearer. The voice declares it will not take part for absolutely no reason. What on earth makes you think we should not take the voice at its word?

Because, if it was the DO, it would want to appear aloof and benevolent, rather than tip his hand (can you think how Rand would've reacted to the DO revealing (a) that it's not Ishamael, and (b) that its hope is to fool Rand into serving it?). The VOICE wishes Rand to try his hand, to perform on his own. That doesn't change, depending on whether it was the Creator or the DO.

But why did it speak at all, if it was Shai'tan? Rand was going to act on his own regardless of the voice. The voice changed nothing. So why would Shai'tan speak to Rand to say that he wasn't going to do anything when no-one expected Him to do anything anyway? I can understand Shai'tan not wanting to reveal Himself, but He would not have been revealed had He just stayed quiet. Speaking doesn't really benefit the Shadow.

Rand was issuing the Dark one a challenge, saying "The Light burn you, Ba'alzamon! It has to end!" The Dark One was responding, saying he would not take part. That's why Rand said he came too close to provoking a direct confrontation with the Dark One at Maradon; he has done that before, when he attacked the Shadowspawn army in Tarwin's Gap, inside the Blight.

Rand was issuing a challenge to Ba'alzamon, not Shai'tan.

Ba'alzamon is another name for Shai'tan, despite the fact that Ishamael also used it.

Ba'alzamon was believed to be the Trolloc name for Shai'tan, that doesn't mean the belief is correct. Also, in context while Rand might believe he was issuing a challenge to Shai'tan, he wasn't. He was challenging Ishamael, who he knew as Ba'alzamon.

 

No-one was speaking to Shai'tan, no-one expected Him to take part. And no, it's not why Rand said he came too close to a direct confrontation at Maradon. He said that because he came too close to a direct confrontation at Maradon, it had nothing to do with Tarwin's Gap.

You say that as if your word alone settles the issue. It doesn't; it's just your opinion, and it's not very logical at that.

You do the same thing all the time. You said it, with no evidence. You provided an illogical opinion and expected it to settle things.

 

Rand was issuing the Dark one a challenge, saying "The Light burn you, Ba'alzamon! It has to end!" The Dark One was responding, saying he would not take part. That's why Rand said he came too close to provoking a direct confrontation with the Dark One at Maradon; he has done that before, when he attacked the Shadowspawn army in Tarwin's Gap, inside the Blight.

From my understanding, Maradon was the only time that was too close; otherwise I think Rand would have added "again" somewhere within the sentence.

 

I don't see why he should have, or how he could have known it was too close unless he had some experience with that sort of thing.

A big stretch. At Maradon, Rand is obviously capable of inferring that he came too close to a direct confrontation. That doesn't mean that he has to rely on prior experience, still less that that experience was Tarwin's Gap. It could as easily be something remembered from LTT. Why wouldn't he be able to work it out purely from what happened at Maradon? What evidence suggests he came too close at TG? Or that Rand knows he came too close? Rand was far more ignorant then than he is now. I see no reason to believe that Rand would conclude TG was too close to a confrontation, and use that as the basis of working out what happened at Maradon. More likely, something about Maradon itself told him. Now, I'm sure you can find some irrelevant quote, or once again claim that the only reason I don't see it is because I don't want to rather than laying out your reasoning, but frankly I wouldn't bother if I were you. If you have actual evidence, feel free to provide. Otherwise, I'm not interested in what you have to say.

 

I take the Dark One could speak only at Shayol Ghul; they were not there.

And the Creator, by RJ's own words, is completely removed from the world and therefore cannot speak at all. Easier to assume we don't know everything about where the Dark One can speak.

RJ didn't describe the Creator as unable to take part - unwilling, perhaps, but that's not the same thing. "

A perfect

Creator

should create a perfect creation. To act, miraculously or no, on this world, would be tantamount to acknowledging imperfection in Himself."

And also we have the question of whether saying you will take no part constitutes taking part.

[FarShainMael]

But then you'd have to say what you mean by 'perfect'. To a craftsman or engineer, a 'perfect creation' is one that meets its purpose and fulfils its function, without faltering or failing, or having to be repaired or resupplied. We don't know what the purpose and function of Randland are. (It might be simply to exist.) It might have a built-in link with its Creator (or not, as the case may be). One thing it must have is a means of defending itself against the Dark One, and - if the DO is equal and opposite to the Creator - it's hard to see how a finite being such as the Dragon Reborn could oppose the DO. The Creator would either have to create him powerful enough to do the job, and therefore equal to the Creator; or provide him with access to the Creator's own power. Just possibly, that's what the Light in his brain is about.

[Vardar]

In a Path of Daggers, the Maidens beat Rand for going to battle without them (Sammael + Seanchan campaign).

 

Rand has a shirt over his head and min cries out for help when they start to beat him. Any reason why Rand did not embrace the source and lash out? At this point he is sick with the dizzyness, but I would have expected him to try initally as it shouldnt be initially know by him that its maidens attacking him.

 

Because he knew who they were. He expected it to come. He wouldn't use the source against the maidens anymore than he would use it against Min. It's about Toh. He owed them Toh, and he knew it, so he paid it.

[Vardar]

It's a fine line. RJ said that to do so would be to acknowledge that his Creation is not perfect and needs assistance or guidance, and therefore he does not do it.

 

Oh snap, I missed that quote. One day I'm going to go through all these quotes and read them all. I'm constantly surprised by an RJ quote.

[nolirion]

In a Path of Daggers, the Maidens beat Rand for going to battle without them (Sammael + Seanchan campaign).

 

Rand has a shirt over his head and min cries out for help when they start to beat him. Any reason why Rand did not embrace the source and lash out? At this point he is sick with the dizzyness, but I would have expected him to try initally as it shouldnt be initially know by him that its maidens attacking him.

It's about toh , at the time he don't understand why the maiden punish him , but he feel like he owe them whatever punishment they inflict on him .

 

But then you'd have to say what you mean by 'perfect'. To a craftsman or engineer, a 'perfect creation' is one that meets its purpose and fulfils its function, without faltering or failing, or having to be repaired or resupplied. We don't know what the purpose and function of Randland are. (It might be simply to exist.) It might have a built-in link with its Creator (or not, as the case may be). One thing it must have is a means of defending itself against the Dark One, and - if the DO is equal and opposite to the Creator - it's hard to see how a finite being such as the Dragon Reborn could oppose the DO. The Creator would either have to create him powerful enough to do the job, and therefore equal to the Creator; or provide him with access to the Creator's own power. Just possibly, that's what the Light in his brain is about.

 

Well he created the pattern as an equal to him or the Do , humanity is but a part of the pattern and the dragon their champion . We don't know yet what will be the confrontation between the dragon and the Do and Verin hinted that it might be something different that a direct confrontation .

 

On to why the creator don't intervene , perhaps he is busy perhaps he is not , but after all he gave creation all the weapon it need to contain the Do .

We imagine both the Do and the Creator are transcendent being , and maybe they are , but both are bound by the pattern , time if you will , for the Do to be in prison the Creator perhaps have to stay away from it's creation .

Stay away might not be the good term , as for the light in Rand's mind it is not Saidin , Nynaeve would have recognize it from her Eotw experience.

[Terez]

Well, that makes things so much clearer. The voice declares it will not take part for absolutely no reason. What on earth makes you think we should not take the voice at its word?

Because, if it was the DO, it would want to appear aloof and benevolent, rather than tip his hand (can you think how Rand would've reacted to the DO revealing (a) that it's not Ishamael, and (b) that its hope is to fool Rand into serving it?). The VOICE wishes Rand to try his hand, to perform on his own. That doesn't change, depending on whether it was the Creator or the DO.

But why did it speak at all, if it was Shai'tan? Rand was going to act on his own regardless of the voice. The voice changed nothing. So why would Shai'tan speak to Rand to say that he wasn't going to do anything when no-one expected Him to do anything anyway? I can understand Shai'tan not wanting to reveal Himself, but He would not have been revealed had He just stayed quiet. Speaking doesn't really benefit the Shadow.

Rand was issuing the Dark one a challenge, saying "The Light burn you, Ba'alzamon! It has to end!" The Dark One was responding, saying he would not take part. That's why Rand said he came too close to provoking a direct confrontation with the Dark One at Maradon; he has done that before, when he attacked the Shadowspawn army in Tarwin's Gap, inside the Blight.

Rand was issuing a challenge to Ba'alzamon, not Shai'tan.

Ba'alzamon is another name for Shai'tan, despite the fact that Ishamael also used it.

Ba'alzamon was believed to be the Trolloc name for Shai'tan, that doesn't mean the belief is correct.

 

It was in the glossary as another name for the Dark One. And whether or not it was originally intended to be a name for the Dark One, there is no reason to believe that the Dark One does not know that everyone thinks of him as Ba'alzamon.

 

Also, in context while Rand might believe he was issuing a challenge to Shai'tan, he wasn't. He was challenging Ishamael, who he knew as Ba'alzamon.

 

Who he also believed to be the Dark One.

 

No-one was speaking to Shai'tan, no-one expected Him to take part. And no, it's not why Rand said he came too close to a direct confrontation at Maradon. He said that because he came too close to a direct confrontation at Maradon, it had nothing to do with Tarwin's Gap.

You say that as if your word alone settles the issue. It doesn't; it's just your opinion, and it's not very logical at that.

You do the same thing all the time. You said it, with no evidence. You provided an illogical opinion and expected it to settle things.

 

No, I provided an argument. There's a big difference between making an argument and just stating your opinion, as you did above.

[Le Québecois]

i got a question for you. Do you think that jaerom is alraedy reborn and that he is Gawyn Trakand. Cause there have been parralels throug the series about him and galad possibly being jaerom. I think he's gawyn because his only defeat ever came by mat 's staff and was really a complete defeat. There are also other clues that lead me to this conclusion. thanks for answering me.

[mb]

Except that there is a similarity between Tarwin's Gap and Maradon that none of Rand's other experiences with Shadowspawn share: those confrontations were in the Blight.

location alone to me does not make a situation too close.

With many of Rand's shadowspawn experiences, he faced more shadowspawn than at Tarwin's Gap.

[Maleshub]

i got a question for you. Do you think that jaerom is alraedy reborn and that he is Gawyn Trakand. Cause there have been parralels throug the series about him and galad possibly being jaerom. I think he's gawyn because his only defeat ever came by mat 's staff and was really a complete defeat. There are also other clues that lead me to this conclusion. thanks for answering me.

 

Lan is Randland's best blademaster. If any of the characters is Jaerom, then it would be Lan. I believe that Brandon said that Gawyn has been extremely lucky in his sword fights against better swordsmen, most notably Hammar and the Seanchan bloodknives. Gawyn is a good swordsman; but he isn't the best. My opinion is that Rand would have owned him in a fight; and Galad was using Gawyn as his whipping boy in practice; so Galad is better.

[Terez]

Except that there is a similarity between Tarwin's Gap and Maradon that none of Rand's other experiences with Shadowspawn share: those confrontations were in the Blight.

location alone to me does not make a situation too close.

 

Because you say so, eh?

[Suttree]

i got a question for you. Do you think that jaerom is alraedy reborn and that he is Gawyn Trakand. Cause there have been parralels throug the series about him and galad possibly being jaerom. I think he's gawyn because his only defeat ever came by mat 's staff and was really a complete defeat. There are also other clues that lead me to this conclusion. thanks for answering me.

 

Lan is Randland's best blademaster. If any of the characters is Jaerom, then it would be Lan. I believe that Brandon said that Gawyn has been extremely lucky in his sword fights against better swordsmen, most notably Hammar and the Seanchan bloodknives. Gawyn is a good swordsman; but he isn't the best. My opinion is that Rand would have owned him in a fight; and Galad was using Gawyn as his whipping boy in practice; so Galad is better.

 

Not to mention both authors have stated Galad is better, the characters in text state Galad is better and the results against common opponents state Galad is better.

[Vardar]

i got a question for you. Do you think that jaerom is alraedy reborn and that he is Gawyn Trakand. Cause there have been parralels throug the series about him and galad possibly being jaerom. I think he's gawyn because his only defeat ever came by mat 's staff and was really a complete defeat. There are also other clues that lead me to this conclusion. thanks for answering me.

 

Lan is Randland's best blademaster. If any of the characters is Jaerom, then it would be Lan. I believe that Brandon said that Gawyn has been extremely lucky in his sword fights against better swordsmen, most notably Hammar and the Seanchan bloodknives. Gawyn is a good swordsman; but he isn't the best. My opinion is that Rand would have owned him in a fight; and Galad was using Gawyn as his whipping boy in practice; so Galad is better.

 

Not to mention both authors have stated Galad is better, the characters in text state Galad is better and the results against common opponents state Galad is better.

 

I always thought it was Galad *WAS* better, but Gawyn is assumed to be better now.

 

Reading the underlining theme, I got that Gawyn always let Galad be better, because subconsciously he was suppressing himself because Galad saved his like twice as a child and as a younger brother he was supposed to look up to him, but once Gawyn left to join the Whitecloaks, Gawyn could come into his own. Have we seen Galad battle anyone besides the one Whitecloak? (Not counting the pre-boat battle since those were ruffians). Gawyn has been kicking ass and taking names against notable people, even in sparring.

 

That being said, I wonder where Tam ranks in all this. I mean he trained Aram, who turned out to be pretty damn badass. That's gotta mean something.

[Mr Ares]

Well, that makes things so much clearer. The voice declares it will not take part for absolutely no reason. What on earth makes you think we should not take the voice at its word?

Because, if it was the DO, it would want to appear aloof and benevolent, rather than tip his hand (can you think how Rand would've reacted to the DO revealing (a) that it's not Ishamael, and (b) that its hope is to fool Rand into serving it?). The VOICE wishes Rand to try his hand, to perform on his own. That doesn't change, depending on whether it was the Creator or the DO.

But why did it speak at all, if it was Shai'tan? Rand was going to act on his own regardless of the voice. The voice changed nothing. So why would Shai'tan speak to Rand to say that he wasn't going to do anything when no-one expected Him to do anything anyway? I can understand Shai'tan not wanting to reveal Himself, but He would not have been revealed had He just stayed quiet. Speaking doesn't really benefit the Shadow.

Rand was issuing the Dark one a challenge, saying "The Light burn you, Ba'alzamon! It has to end!" The Dark One was responding, saying he would not take part. That's why Rand said he came too close to provoking a direct confrontation with the Dark One at Maradon; he has done that before, when he attacked the Shadowspawn army in Tarwin's Gap, inside the Blight.

Rand was issuing a challenge to Ba'alzamon, not Shai'tan.

Ba'alzamon is another name for Shai'tan, despite the fact that Ishamael also used it.

Ba'alzamon was believed to be the Trolloc name for Shai'tan, that doesn't mean the belief is correct.

 

It was in the glossary as another name for the Dark One. And whether or not it was originally intended to be a name for the Dark One, there is no reason to believe that the Dark One does not know that everyone thinks of him as Ba'alzamon.

 

Also, in context while Rand might believe he was issuing a challenge to Shai'tan, he wasn't. He was challenging Ishamael, who he knew as Ba'alzamon.

 

Who he also believed to be the Dark One.

Why is his belief relevant? He wasn't challenging Shai'tan, he was challenging Ishamael.

 

No-one was speaking to Shai'tan, no-one expected Him to take part. And no, it's not why Rand said he came too close to a direct confrontation at Maradon. He said that because he came too close to a direct confrontation at Maradon, it had nothing to do with Tarwin's Gap.

You say that as if your word alone settles the issue. It doesn't; it's just your opinion, and it's not very logical at that.

You do the same thing all the time. You said it, with no evidence. You provided an illogical opinion and expected it to settle things.

 

No, I provided an argument. There's a big difference between making an argument and just stating your opinion, as you did above.

No, you stated an opinion. That makes it exactly the same.

 

i got a question for you. Do you think that jaerom is alraedy reborn and that he is Gawyn Trakand. Cause there have been parralels throug the series about him and galad possibly being jaerom. I think he's gawyn because his only defeat ever came by mat 's staff and was really a complete defeat. There are also other clues that lead me to this conclusion. thanks for answering me.

 

Lan is Randland's best blademaster. If any of the characters is Jaerom, then it would be Lan. I believe that Brandon said that Gawyn has been extremely lucky in his sword fights against better swordsmen, most notably Hammar and the Seanchan bloodknives. Gawyn is a good swordsman; but he isn't the best. My opinion is that Rand would have owned him in a fight; and Galad was using Gawyn as his whipping boy in practice; so Galad is better.

 

Not to mention both authors have stated Galad is better, the characters in text state Galad is better and the results against common opponents state Galad is better.

 

I always thought it was Galad *WAS* better, but Gawyn is assumed to be better now.

 

Reading the underlining theme, I got that Gawyn always let Galad be better, because subconsciously he was suppressing himself because Galad saved his like twice as a child and as a younger brother he was supposed to look up to him, but once Gawyn left to join the Whitecloaks, Gawyn could come into his own. Have we seen Galad battle anyone besides the one Whitecloak? (Not counting the pre-boat battle since those were ruffians). Gawyn has been kicking ass and taking names against notable people, even in sparring.

The problem is, we have precious little to compare them directly of late. The last time we could directly compare, Galad was better. According to Word of God, that remains true.

[Vardar]

The problem is, we have precious little to compare them directly of late. The last time we could directly compare, Galad was better. According to Word of God, that remains true.

 

What last direct comparasion did we have that wasn't Gawyn's own opinion? We're always told that because a character beliefs something doesn't make it true.

 

What we do have is Gawyn beating someone single handedly who managed to actually best Lan once, while that person had assistance.

 

But yea, RJ's word is law. Just tossing out ideas and opinions.

[Suttree]

The problem is, we have precious little to compare them directly of late. The last time we could directly compare, Galad was better. According to Word of God, that remains true.

 

What last direct comparasion did we have that wasn't Gawyn's own opinion? We're always told that because a character beliefs something doesn't make it true.

 

What we do have is Gawyn beating someone single handedly who managed to actually best Lan once, while that person had assistance.

 

But yea, RJ's word is law. Just tossing out ideas and opinions.

 

Galad beating warders 3/5 in sparing while Gawyn was lucky to manage two. Lastly multiple characters including Mat state Galad is the better. It is a misconception that pops up here and there but more screen time does not a better swordsman make.

[Vardar]

The problem is, we have precious little to compare them directly of late. The last time we could directly compare, Galad was better. According to Word of God, that remains true.

 

What last direct comparasion did we have that wasn't Gawyn's own opinion? We're always told that because a character beliefs something doesn't make it true.

 

What we do have is Gawyn beating someone single handedly who managed to actually best Lan once, while that person had assistance.

 

But yea, RJ's word is law. Just tossing out ideas and opinions.

 

Galad beating warders 3/5 in sparing while Gawyn was lucky to manage two. Lastly multiple characters including Mat state Galad is the better. It is a misconception that pops up here and there but more screen time does not a better swordsman make.

 

Multiple characters? I recall the Mat POV, who else?

[Vardar]

5 Bloofknives were sent to the tower right? Bryne killed 1, Gawyn killed 3...

 

So where's the last?

[nolirion]

He got caught , first by Gawyn , this is when he got the blade that the Sul'dam recognized , and killed by other guard I am not sure of that actually .

[Mr Ares]

5 Bloofknives were sent to the tower right? Bryne killed 1, Gawyn killed 3...

 

So where's the last?

From Encyclopaedia-WOT: Hours after the battle Gawyn sits exhausted in Egwene�s quarters when she returns. The blood stains are being cleaned. A fourth assassin was killed taking two Tower Guards and a Warder with her. TOM 42. All five are accounted for.

[Suttree]

The problem is, we have precious little to compare them directly of late. The last time we could directly compare, Galad was better. According to Word of God, that remains true.

 

What last direct comparasion did we have that wasn't Gawyn's own opinion? We're always told that because a character beliefs something doesn't make it true.

 

What we do have is Gawyn beating someone single handedly who managed to actually best Lan once, while that person had assistance.

 

But yea, RJ's word is law. Just tossing out ideas and opinions.

 

Galad beating warders 3/5 in sparing while Gawyn was lucky to manage two. Lastly multiple characters including Mat state Galad is the better. It is a misconception that pops up here and there but more screen time does not a better swordsman make.

 

Multiple characters? I recall the Mat POV, who else?

 

Off the top of my head Nynaeve for one.There are multiple "best swordsman" threads where the topic has been discussed in great detail.

[Vardar]

5 Bloofknives were sent to the tower right? Bryne killed 1, Gawyn killed 3...

 

So where's the last?

From Encyclopaedia-WOT: Hours after the battle Gawyn sits exhausted in Egwene�s quarters when she returns. The blood stains are being cleaned. A fourth assassin was killed taking two Tower Guards and a Warder with her. TOM 42. All five are accounted for.

 

Thank you.

 

Off the top of my head Nynaeve for one.There are multiple "best swordsman" threads where the topic has been discussed in great detail.

 

I'll look for it.

[mb]

Except that there is a similarity between Tarwin's Gap and Maradon that none of Rand's other experiences with Shadowspawn share: those confrontations were in the Blight.

location alone to me does not make a situation too close.

Because you say so, eh?

Implied at least one other factor in the next sentence.

[FanoLan]

How did Masema recognize Faile before she and Cha Faile put an end to him in TGS? I do not recall them meeting previously or any reference to the two of them having met before his conversion to the Prophet but when she step into the clearing Masema knows her name. Is this a mistake or a clue as to something else going on behind the scenes? Maybe insight as to Masema's reasons for wanting to stay in the West rather than heading directly to Rand? Grasping at straws but it really stuck out in the latest read.

[Luckers]

How did Masema recognize Faile before she and Cha Faile put an end to him in TGS? I do not recall them meeting previously or any reference to the two of them having met before his conversion to the Prophet but when she step into the clearing Masema knows her name. Is this a mistake or a clue as to something else going on behind the scenes? Maybe insight as to Masema's reasons for wanting to stay in the West rather than heading directly to Rand? Grasping at straws but it really stuck out in the latest read.

 

I'm guessing mistake. Even if he'd seen her at a distance in Malden its weird.

[Maleshub]

How did Masema recognize Faile before she and Cha Faile put an end to him in TGS? I do not recall them meeting previously or any reference to the two of them having met before his conversion to the Prophet but when she step into the clearing Masema knows her name. Is this a mistake or a clue as to something else going on behind the scenes? Maybe insight as to Masema's reasons for wanting to stay in the West rather than heading directly to Rand? Grasping at straws but it really stuck out in the latest read.

How did Masema recognize Faile before she and Cha Faile put an end to him in TGS? I do not recall them meeting previously or any reference to the two of them having met before his conversion to the Prophet but when she step into the clearing Masema knows her name. Is this a mistake or a clue as to something else going on behind the scenes? Maybe insight as to Masema's reasons for wanting to stay in the West rather than heading directly to Rand? Grasping at straws but it really stuck out in the latest read.

 

I'm guessing mistake. Even if he'd seen her at a distance in Malden its weird.

 

Aram could have easily described her to him. And her description (and that of Alliandre and other) could have been distributed prior to the battle so that she won't be killed by "friendly fire."