A First Time Reader's Journey.

[TruorTupnm]

I shall interpret that as ---> Got it.  So the path was metaphorical, since I finished the books and never saw a path made out of daggers.  ::)

 

Towards that one Warder bond comment ---> Hm?  Not tied off?  It doesn't sound as if everyone with a Warder is constantly keeping the bond in place.  I thought that there were only two methods.  Keeping it up and eventually just running out of stamina or falling asleep or something, or tying it off.  Is that incorrect?

 

Yay for the knife that was singled out being important...possibly...at some later time!  It got an entire book named after it, but it wasn't very important in that book.  Crazy title-crafters.

 

Current Forsaken roster ---> Nah.  With lots of strictness towards spoilage on this website and with myself not remembering what happens in which books, I'll just type most of this stuff elsewhere. 

 

Towards their reincarnations, though ---> It still makes little sense.  Good for Moridin, I suppose, for being intimidating and being given the gift of extra firepower, but I would have thought that Shai'tan would have been angrier at this guy.  He messed with Balthamel by turning him into a lady, and I don't even remember that guy making Shai'tan mad.  He made Lanfear less powerful than before, which actually does make sense, since she seems less cooperative than others.  He might have even delivered her to Moridin, so she couldn't run off to do her own crazy thing. 

 

And since Aginor's main contribution to the Forsaken organization was gene-splicing and such, why did he come back?  Mayhaps there is still some hidden lab somewhere that I don't know about.  ::)

 

Why did Shai'tan overlook Asmodean?  That guy actually could have been useful, unlike some, since he might have learned plenty about the main character and could have just been instructed to lie to him or somesuch.  Makes no sense.  But then, Shai'tan is the Lord Of Chaos, yes?  He's just too chaotic for decent planning.  Poor dude.

 

On the One Power (although it isn't the only one) ---> I have lots of questions besides that one about keeping weaves up or tying them off.  Plenty seem quite properly horrified of Compulsion, but how close are you allowed to come to it?  I have noticed some memory-wiping type stuff and some fear-inducing type stuff, at the least.  Seems equally evil, to myself, ripping your way into someone's brain and mucking about however you want.

 

Are there no research scientists in this world, or is Research And Development supposed to be capitalized here, since people only attempt some if they have the Talent for it?  Argh.  All of those Yellow ladies throughout the years, and they only have that one uncomfortable method of Healage until Nynaeve comes along?  Craziness, and that is just one instance of a lack of research.  The excuse of being arrogant and set in their ways isn't good enough.  These people are serious about studying.  Why refuse to make things better?

 

Not enough is done about dream-class magic.  Those Wise Ones should have the best information network around, at least among the Aiel.  And when they leave their country, they should have found reasons to spread their Wise Ones around.  When the Shaido got scattered, I would have thought that plenty of those Wise Ones would have still been decently loyal enough to their kind to relate some information.  Additionally, what are those Black ladies up to, who stole all of those dream-related thingies?

 

For more Warder bondiness confusion, what happens to be upwards along with the main character and his ladies not being able to employ that trick for hiding themselves from each other?  I figure that it is most probably merely that they don't have enough practice or somesuch, but they also could have just made the bond incorrectly.  Is not such a bond more of an advanced thing?  And Elayne is one of the less formal Aes Sedai, anyways, so she probably didn't know what she was doing either time.

 

Why did they destroy Shadar Logoth, also known as Moria (at least in my brain)?  They were de-crazifying the male portion of magic and, as an afterthought, they looked to their right, saw some ruins, and said, "Hey, why not?  While we're here, let's just deprive some archaeologists of some fun.  We just de-crazified some crazy that a god applied to a world-wide phenomenon, but we're just too lazy to try to de-claw one little city." Also, did they get it all, and did that do anything to Padan Fain?

 

Ah, and, if I did not mention it before, I stand behind Cadsuane and Tuon.  Both are several sorts of fun and for the same reasons.  Honesty and tricksiness, combined with indomitability. 

 

That Amathera Panarch lady, now called Thera.  Garn, yo.  Via what means did she become so pathetic?  Which leads into ---> Okay, she wasn't so great to begin with, I suppose, but she became more pathetic via the Seanchan.  How do they mess with people so well, and why are they so different?  Sure, they moved to some other land that has all kinds of weird animals, but how weird do the animals have to be to change so much?  Okay, so they were gone for a long enough time to change plenty, but I am merely looking for an explanation towards the extremity.

 

There is probably more, but I shall now go into the other threads.  I've got to take these books back to library.  sorry about not showing up often enough.  This thread probably would have been more fun if I did a stumbling chapter-by-chapter thing, but I got plenty busy, towards the end. *hides*  ::)

[Agitel]

EDIT: I reread this after posting. Please forgive the spelling and grammar mistakes. I need to go to bed before I hurt myself.

 

I thought I already explained the reincarnations well. The Dark One is not omniscient. He does listen to his Chosen to a degree. There are relatively few channelers in the world to choose from, and none others who remember the more complex weaves of the Age of Legends. The Chosen's attitude towards 'modern' channelers as being barbaric has also rubbed off to a degree on the DO. If he thinks everyone else he can choose from is pathetic, he's going to keep his Chosen around a little longer. Ishamael/Moridin has been working on furthering the DO's agenda for 3000 years. He was a theologian and a philosopher in the Age of Legends, he was one of the first Aes Sedai to turn to the Dark One, and, from his emphasis on furthering chaos and not an innate desire to just kill Rand and rule the world, maybe it should be clear that he has a better understanding of the Dark One's goals than the other Forsaken. More on that later. Aginor, regardless of not being able to work his biology, is still far more educated when it comes to channeling than the 'modern' Aes Sedai, and keep in mind that the DO doesn't trust easily. He doesn't even trust his Chosen very far, but perhaps trusting people who sacrificed themselves defending you when Lews Therin tried to seal you away rather than flee like most other Chosen (Chosen refers to all Aes Sedai of the AoL who converted, not just those thirteen) is better than trusting primitive nobodies. And it's implied Asmodean was killed by balefire. The DO is only able to nab souls if he grabs them very soon after death. Balefire kills their soul before the moment of death, the DO is unable to nab them in time.

 

Memory wiping? Fear inducing? I don't remember any fear inducing things that directly touched on anybody's mind, more like they put on shows to induce fears in novices and others. If you're thinking about what Verin did in book eight, that would be forbidden by the White Tower. Even Aes Sedai influencing Warders through the bond is frowned upon if done for certain things.

 

The White Tower is what it sounds to be, an elitist group of people who've locked themselves mostly away from the world in their little ivory tower. It's commented on later in the series by some Aes Sedai, but they've been very locked in safe teaching and not experimenting. They've no scientific theories as to how the power works, nor do they seek to understand it. They seem contented that experimenting is dangerous (it's ingrained into the skulls of Novices and its likely stuck), and the Ajahs have long frowned and scoffed at girls who try new things that just "can't be done". They've gone through a heavy dark age. Strength in the power seems to grant a bit of intuitiveness to it, which certain benefits the new girls, but they've also not undergone the strict 'brainwashing' that the Tower puts the novices and accepted through. Not only do they move fast, but they've spent far too long outside of the Tower for these long-standing attitudes to be ingrained into their skulls.

 

The Wise Ones do communicate, I think even with the Shaido Wise Ones, but the WO's try to stay out of clan politics for the most part. The Black sisters do return later.

 

As for masking the Warder bond, both Elayne and Aviendha are able to do it (when Min brings it up with Aviendha, Avi admits to forgetting and proceeds to block it). Min can't, likely because she can't channel. Rand probably doesn't know how as he's had no teaching. Alanna admits to not wanting to every block off the bond of a warder fully, even when Rand and Min are having fun-time, and likely partially because she's still suffering from losing her own Warder in The Shadow Rising.

 

As for Shadar Logoth, it was necessary. Rand's wounds, one Shadow tainted from Ishamael and the other Shadar Logoth tainted by Fain's dagger, pulse opposite each other. It's sort of implied that their evil is on opposite wave lengths, that when Shadow evil is peaking the Shadar Logoth evil is at it's lowest point. They work against each other. Rand, based on a riddle answer he got through the red archway in Tear by the snake people (Aelfinn), worked this out. The Taint had to go somewhere, so he combined it with the evil of Shadar Logoth and they sort of neutralized each other, acid and base.

 

The Seanchan condition their property. They consider them nothing more than animals to be trained. They will beat them for bad behavior, and they will reward them for good. Carrot and stick. They will do this rigorously, and it seems to be an art perfected over the course of 1000 years. They have people specially trained to do the conditioning.

 

 

 

[TruorTupnm]

Towards Forsaken and the god who loves them so much ---> Sure, I get why he decides to keep these Other Agers around, I was mostly pointing out why these particular Forsaken weren't such great choices.  He brought back Ishamael, who went insane, pretended to be him, got very pathetically beaten by the main character three times, and it was apparently considered necessary to hand him the honor of some additional firepower to make him moderately useful. 

 

Belthamel, on the other paw, has more of an excuse for dying pathetically, and never insulted his god, but he gets insulted by being brought back to life as a lady, which is something that he wasn't a large fan of, at least at first.  Sure, mayhaps Shai'tan knew that he would be the best choice for infiltrating and tricking people as a lady, and Ishamael, although insane and incompetent, was the best choice for becoming Nae'blis, even though that title was supposed to go to the best of the Forsaken.  And how was he considered to be the best, after all of his failures and after the other Forsaken didn't even have time to succeed or fail at much?  oh well.  Mayhaps his spirit was just really persuasive, in the afterlife.  ::)

 

Towards Asmodean, ah.  I hadn't noticed that balefire was implied.  I just read, "He suddenly disappeared.  Nobody knows what happened.  Shai'tan decided that he was a traitor and wouldn't be coming back." So mayhaps what Shai'tan decided was more of a, "I love my Forsaken so much, but this one can't be brought back, so I'll just have a tantrum about it, then pretend that I never really wanted him to come back, anyways."  ::)

 

Towards Aginor, sure, Yay for the Forsaken being from some Other Age and supposedly knowing a significant amount extra of useful magic (although, not nearly enough to beat one punk kid from this Age), and Yay for these guys apparently really knowing how to schmooze to their god, but beyond his touted gene-splicing abilities, he never demonstrated any proficiencies awesome enough to warrant being brought back to life, which was my only reason for pointing it out.  oh well.  I repeat myself and ramble, it looks like.

 

Towards evil Aes Sedai inducing fear, I was thinking of what Moiraine did in that New Spring prequel thingy.  It was one of those particular to the Blue Ajah sorts of evil magics.  She employed it to get one lady to admit to something and to make a bunch of horse thieves leave her alone.  And it was terrifying and evil.

 

Towards the White Tower apparently as well as intentionally stabbing its own eyes out ---> The Brown ladies, in particular, should have been figuring stuff out.  They deal in research of several sorts.  They aren't merely librarians that polish off old books and don't even read them to learn about how cool stuff used to occur.  They mention things that are known but which are apparently lost, like flying, they test people for lost abilities, like Dreamage, and they are aware that some powers are lost to the Ages, while others from earlier ones with no remaining records can reappear.  Shouldn't they be testing for powers that they don't even have names for, then?  oh well.  Merely me ranting, I suppose. 

 

Towards the apparently offhand destruction of Shadar Logoth ---> Got it.  Without much in the way of the main character explaining what he's doing, it merely looked as if he was just taking advantage of the extra power to kill two birds with one stone, not that he needed the two birds to kill each other.  ::) But then, there was a lot of checking to make sure that the male portion of magic had been de-crazified.  Why didn't anyone check to make sure that Shadar Logoth was purged of evil?  How deep did the evil go?  Could someone walk into the crater and become possessed by a piece of glass?  Also, if Padan Fain didn't lose his Shadar Logothiness due to this, he is most probably the last bit of it in the world.  It could spread again, or he could have just been really weakened by it and is now influenced more by whatever Shai'tan did to him.  Poor guy. 

 

Which reminds myself ---> Is not Padan Fain a grand example of how Shai'tan could work with people from this Age?  With his Forsaken dropping to the right as well as to the left, even if they know some tricks from earlier Ages, why not employ some raids of his own?  Grab some Aes Sedai, pick up a few not-too-crazy-yet males, mess with their brains, then just tell them the tricks from the earlier Ages, so they know them, too.  Wait.  He doesn't even have to make raids.  He has Black ladies working for him already.  Just call them up, dude.  Tell them to meet you at your place for some reprogramming.  Not that hard.

 

Towards the creepy Seanchan ---> Understood.  It just seems a bit crazy, to myself.  How long did they hold that Amathera lady?  Not overly long, and she has been twitching at the sight of them, ever since.  There are very good reprogrammers over there, I suppose.  Reprogramming via those awesome collars makes sense, at least.  And what made these guys become so different from the countries that they left?  Eh.  Okay.  I'll just go with, "They had some really destructive magic-users, so they got really used to controlling them.  Controlling those dudes led to them being obsessed with control in other areas."

[Agitel]

Towards Forsaken and the god who loves them so much ---> Sure, I get why he decides to keep these Other Agers around, I was mostly pointing out why these particular Forsaken weren't such great choices.  He brought back Ishamael, who went insane, pretended to be him, got very pathetically beaten by the main character three times, and it was apparently considered necessary to hand him the honor of some additional firepower to make him moderately useful.

 

Belthamel, on the other paw, has more of an excuse for dying pathetically, and never insulted his god, but he gets insulted by being brought back to life as a lady, which is something that he wasn't a large fan of, at least at first.  Sure, mayhaps Shai'tan knew that he would be the best choice for infiltrating and tricking people as a lady, and Ishamael, although insane and incompetent, was the best choice for becoming Nae'blis, even though that title was supposed to go to the best of the Forsaken.  And how was he considered to be the best, after all of his failures and after the other Forsaken didn't even have time to succeed or fail at much?  oh well.  Mayhaps his spirit was just really persuasive, in the afterlife.  Roll Eyes

 

Towards Asmodean, ah.  I hadn't noticed that balefire was implied.  I just read, "He suddenly disappeared.  Nobody knows what happened.  Shai'tan decided that he was a traitor and wouldn't be coming back." So mayhaps what Shai'tan decided was more of a, "I love my Forsaken so much, but this one can't be brought back, so I'll just have a tantrum about it, then pretend that I never really wanted him to come back, anyways."

 

Towards Aginor, sure, Yay for the Forsaken being from some Other Age and supposedly knowing a significant amount extra of useful magic (although, not nearly enough to beat one punk kid from this Age), and Yay for these guys apparently really knowing how to schmooze to their god, but beyond his touted gene-splicing abilities, he never demonstrated any proficiencies awesome enough to warrant being brought back to life, which was my only reason for pointing it out.  oh well.  I repeat myself and ramble, it looks like.

 

Ishamael insulted the Dark One? Has the Dark Oneshown himself to be a jealous god, in particular? Why would he care what Ishamael says so long as it furthers the Shadow's goals? Let's take a look at Elan Morin (Ishamael's real name).

 

Elan was one of the first Aes Sedai to turn to the Shadow. He didn't do so for power. He didn't do so for immortality. He did it because he believed it was the logical and right thing to do (he deduced the cyclical nature of time and figured that it was inevitable that the Dark One would eventually win. That this was one long battle, not many separate ones. That the Light never could really win, that a victory for the light only delayed a permanent victory for the Shadow). This separates him from all the other sealed Forsaken. His motivations and goals are completely different. Elan didn't just flee to the DO, he made a speech in the Hall of Servants calling for all other Aes Sedai to do the same. Lews Therin shamed him here, but it's the thought that counts, right? Regardless, for someone who doesn't trust very well, someone like this is probably a better choice than someone who's in it for their own personal gain.

 

Now, other accomplishments.

-Elan organized and greatly influenced the starting of the Black Ajah, which now infests the Tower like a plague.

-Elan is the main reasons why there is massive organized hierarchy of Darkfriends around the world on every continent. Remember those meetings he held by pulling people in their sleep? They're everywhere.

-When the lands west of the Spine of the World joined together in an alliance and made progress towards global unity, Elan organized and instigated the Trolloc Wars, which shattered not just the allied nations, but nations all over the world, keeping it from organizing and setting back 1000 years of progress.

-When Artur Hawkwing was uniting the world under one banner (it seems like the Wheel was pretty insistent on trying this, making it's hero an incredibly strong ta'veren), having united the lands west of the Spine of the World and sent conquering armies across the sea to Seanchan and across the Aiel Waste to Shara, Elan poisoned Hawkwing's mind so that when Hawkwing was injured he refused Aes Sedai aid that could have kept him alive. There was also a very suspicious death of the Amyrlin who nearly salvaged Hawkwing's empire. No doubt he also had much influence and contacts all over those western lands, and the land fell into civil war, Seanchan entered an 800 year long war of conquest, and Shara was ravaged by Hawkwing's armies before turning back, thus preventing a unified world from forming and setting civilization back 1000 years, again.

 

Elan has been instrumental in presenting an early modern society, disorganized spread of nations where civilization seems to be struggling (how many countries and blank spaces do you see on the map? Pre-trolloc wars and pre-Hawkwing land didn't look like that) that's infested by darkfriends for the Dark One near the time of the Tarmon Gai'don. He has quite a few, non-pathetic notches under his belt. I don't think he or any of the Forsaken have much experience dealing with a ta'veren like rand. To try and destroy him directly by being near him is just putting oneself too close into the Wheel's more guiding influence.

 

On another note. The Dark One sees these guys as better educated and more efficient than anyone else alive at this time. He has too few people of this caliber as is, and he sort of has a deadline to meet and not enough time to fully train the new recruits, not to mention the Forsaken as a whole wouldn't be nearly trusting enough to want to train anybody to their level, they like their advantage.

 

And on one final note on this topic, what makes you think the Dark One intentionally gave those specific bodies to those he resurrected? Because Aginor/Osan'gar thought it a cruel joke? Jordan's confirmed that the Dark One isn't concerned about such things and is only concerned with finding bodies that are healthy and meet the standards for the soul-implantation process. Those bodies weren't fabricated, they were once people. It was chance that gave Ishy/Moridin the body he now has.

 

Towards evil Aes Sedai inducing fear, I was thinking of what Moiraine did in that New Spring prequel thingy.  It was one of those particular to the Blue Ajah sorts of evil magics.  She employed it to get one lady to admit to something and to make a bunch of horse thieves leave her alone.  And it was terrifying and evil.

 

Ah, you're right, I believe. Yeah, it's questionable, but the Blue Ajah likely thinks there's a difference between manipulating emotions and controlling a mind. They're sneaky.

 

Towards the White Tower apparently as well as intentionally stabbing its own eyes out ---> The Brown ladies, in particular, should have been figuring stuff out.  They deal in research of several sorts.  They aren't merely librarians that polish off old books and don't even read them to learn about how cool stuff used to occur.  They mention things that are known but which are apparently lost, like flying, they test people for lost abilities, like Dreamage, and they are aware that some powers are lost to the Ages, while others from earlier ones with no remaining records can reappear.  Shouldn't they be testing for powers that they don't even have names for, then?  oh well.  Merely me ranting, I suppose.

 

Browns are more scholars and people who like to categorize and observe things. The scientific method hasn't really emerged in this time period (in fact, I think it really only began to emerge around the same technology level in the real world). Aes Sedai brainwash their Novices and Accepted to fear experimenting to a far too high degree, likely somewhat in response to dropping numbers of Aes Sedai and that as a whole the Aes Sedai are becoming weaker in strength as time goes by. It's just "too risky" to lose Aes Sedai to "foolishness". I'm interested if there's been any other influences, perhaps even malicious ones, that have caused this mindset. While Jordan can't cover everything, the more I read both of this and of analysis of the characters and books outside of the novels, he really did flesh everything out to an amazing degree. He makes a point of making it known he's very much aware of this odd mindset the Aes Sedai have, a few Aes Sedai have acknowledged it throughout the series and thought it a pity, I doubt he would not have some kind of background reason for why this is so, even if he hasn't shared it with us.

 

Padan Fain is an anomaly. He's no longer an agent for the Shadow, but he definitely isn't one for the Light, either. Jordan's confirmed in interviews that Fain doesn't even walk even slightly guided by the Wheel's will anymore. The Wheel's ignorant of him. I'd say that because of this, Fain's more dangerous to Rand one-on-one than any Forsaken.

 

Also, the Dark One's got quite a large infestation in the White Tower and it's hinted a very large infestation of the Black Tower as well.

 

And on a more personal, speculative note, I think the Dark One would rather avoid the Last Battle and win before then.

[TruorTupnm]

I figured that Ishamael going insane and thinking himself Shai'tan would be insulting, in addition to him supposedly being the strongest of the Forsaken, getting beaten pathetically every two seconds, and therefore making Shai'tan look bad.  But then, sure, it is true that I don't really know much about Shai'tan's personality.  I figured that, being some giant as well as terrifyingly evil dude, he would possess most of the negative emotions, jealousy included.  But mayhaps no.

 

Towards new bodies for those lucky Forsaken, yes, I suppose that I was figuring that they were given bodies that Shai'tan chose for specific reasons.  Whoops.  Hmmm... I hadn't really thought about where the bodies came from.  So, they are unlucky Darkfriends?  Seems as if detaching a Forsaken spirit from a body that wasn't originally made for it would be a lot easier than detaching the crazy from the male half of magic.  That would be a pretty cool way of dealing with one of them. "Rand detaches Moridin's spirit from its unwilling host body.  Shai'tan, the Lord Of The Grave, notices his spirit pop up back in his bin of souls that he is allowed to play with, and growls, "Argh!  You again?  I look away for two seconds!  oh well.  You are very flattering, so I'll grab another body for you."

 

Towards Ajah-specific Weaves, I would like to see more and am currently speculating on what they would be like.  I would think that the Gray would be plenty likely to be fans of evil brain-warping abilities, like that fear one, since they are primarily about dealing with people.  Not enough has been written about those guys or the White, who I figure should have stuff along the lines of seeing through illusions or being better at checking out the Pattern.

 

Towards the tragically traditional Aes Sedai mindset, I doubt that there is any malicious reason for it, besides mayhaps some Black ladies finding some stuff out and keeping it for themselves.  It makes plenty of sense for them to merely have become plenty blind due to arrogance over the years.  Whenever the Forsaken types talk about Aes Sedai, they always look down on them and call them half trained and such, inferior descendants of their Age.  I would have thought that they, Mesaana in particular, would have mentioned something along the lines of, "Muahaha!  They are refusing to step outside of the box that we crafted for them so long ago!  How they get so blind?"

 

Towards Padan Fain, well, I was hypothesizing that he might have become more of an agent of Shai'tan again, now that Shadar Logoth is gone, but I am not sure what its destruction did to him, if anything.  Padan Fain is sneaking around, manipulating some other powerful dude into helping him out, suddenly, Shadar Logoth is wiped out, and he hears Shai'tan, "Wazzup, dude!  Where you been at?  Garn, via what means did you become such a failure, even after I dosed you up with awesome?  Do you need another visit to the Bore?  No?  Good.  Then get back to work." Padan Fain whimpers, goes back to pathetically stalking the main character, and wonders if he is awesome enough to give birth to another Shadar Logoth.

 

Towards the Seanchan, I was just reminded by the fact that they have those weird animals at least one of which was found in that creepy dimension where the main character was able to save some time and hang out with Lanfear, Loial, and Hurin, some characters that I miss.  Mayhaps the Seanchan are adept at messing about in such dimensions?  Mayhaps they can only get to that one with that one weird animal, or mayhaps they can choose between plenty where they have gathered plenty of weird animals.  But then, if they could do that, they would also be adept at saving travel time.  So mayhaps they are superly different because they originally came from some crazy other dimension where such animals and such customs are common, and their prophecies concerning the main character would have been true.

[Agitel]

The strange beasts from Seanchan were already there before Hawkwing's armies had arrived. Luthair Paendrag's armies dubbed the native people there the Armies of Night because they believed the odd creatures to be Shadowspawn and the land already conquered by the Shadow. The native people had brought the strange creatures over via Portal Stone, as you suspect. I would guess that the knowledge of how to use the stones has been lost.

[chris777]

Good God Man.  You started when I was on book 5 or 6 I think.  I just finished Book8, path of daggers...and you are way ahead of me.  So I stopped reading here:

 

Towards their reincarnations, though ---> It still makes little sense.  Good for Moridin, I suppose, for being intimidating and being given the gift of extra firepower, but I would have thought that Shai'tan would have been angrier at this guy.  He messed with Balthamel by turning him into a lady, and I don't even remember that guy making Shai'tan mad.  He made Lanfear less powerful than before.....................

Unfortunately that last sentence ruined a plot line for me.  And I have an obvious guess that this new girl Cyndine is actually Lanfear reinacarnated by Shai'Tan.  Less powerful, but still the most powerful female Forsaken?  Anyways, I hope we find this out soon, book 9 preferably.

 

Slow down though, I love reading your thoughts, but i have to wait a whole book until i can read anymore.

[Majsju]

I figured that Ishamael going insane and thinking himself Shai'tan would be insulting, in addition to him supposedly being the strongest of the Forsaken, getting beaten pathetically every two seconds, and therefore making Shai'tan look bad.  But then, sure, it is true that I don't really know much about Shai'tan's personality.  I figured that, being some giant as well as terrifyingly evil dude, he would possess most of the negative emotions, jealousy included.  But mayhaps no.

 

Keep in mind that the DO is a god, which means he does not always view things the way humans would.

 

 

Towards new bodies for those lucky Forsaken, yes, I suppose that I was figuring that they were given bodies that Shai'tan chose for specific reasons.  Whoops.  Hmmm... I hadn't really thought about where the bodies came from.  So, they are unlucky Darkfriends? 

 

Not necessarily darkfriends, any channeler the shadow can get their hands on would be a suitable new body. And it would make more sense for the shadow to try to get bodies from non-DFs, weaken the enemy instead of the own troops.

 

Towards Padan Fain, well, I was hypothesizing that he might have become more of an agent of Shai'tan again, now that Shadar Logoth is gone, but I am not sure what its destruction did to him, if anything.

 

 

The destrucion of Shadar Logoth did not do a thing to Fain, he is just as messed up as before, from merging with Mordeth and carrying that dagger around.

 

 

[jaldy3]

 

Towards Mat's luck, I have not noticed any evidence that supports the idea that he gets it merely due to being a ta'veren dude, although, sure, I agree that it works as an explanation.  For the dagger being the cause, I mostly typed it because it was the only explanation ventured in the books so far, that I could see.  He wasn't crazily lucky before it, so it must at the least have been a contributing factor.  Of course, being a ta'veren does not mean affecting things like crazy at all times.  His luck kicked in when it was interesting for the evil Creator pulling the strings.  ::)

 

 

 

My thoughts on Mat's luck are this: It was stated that Mat was naturally lucky as a boy in Emonds Field, but not in the extreme. He was corrupted by the Shadar Logoth dagger and then healed with a very large amount of the One Power and finally he is taveren.

I believe the healing and his tavereness altered Mat's natural luck. Remember, his luck only seems to extends to things of random chance. Such as dice, or blocking a sword thrust that would surely have gotten through and killed most men.

[Goramier]

It all comes down to this and listen up scum. The fake from Dual Creek is going to die! And I am going to be the one to kill him, NO ONE ELSE! I have been tormented. I have been tortured. I have been made and unmade and reborn again. I have lived worse then a worm. Eating things that would make a sane man puke out his inards. I control through fear, live through memories and have ambition ruled by insanity. I am no one. I am everyone. I can sense others who even have thoughts towards the shadow and will kill for the sheer enjoyment or for the chance to rid a mere nuisance. I will cleanse the world of the worste and can sense it all. I may be gone fom sight...for now but I shall return. It's in my absence that the truth will be told. The end is near. I am coming. It is coming. My actions have spoken volumes. The wound that will kill him is the wound that I provided the cure for. The light fights me. The shadow hates me. I am not nuetral. I am not your friend. I am not your ally. The trumpets sound and the hills take flight, for the battle to be waged doesn't consider the prophecies of the dark. I will be no more. Then I will be again. Locked away I will become forever sealed to repeat the muse of another and again. Time shall cease then come again. For as ages pass, as I was forced to walk the prison of a city, a city that is no more, so has my prison. I am your dark. I am your hate. I am you.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

I am your dark. I am your hate. I am you.

I'm not convinced. My hate tends to be less poetic and long winded.

 

Towards their reincarnations, though --->He made Lanfear less powerful than before, which actually does make sense, since she seems less cooperative than others.

So it makes sense to make a tool less useful to you? Not really. There is no benefit to be gained from weakening her, which is why it is doubtful that was done by Shai'tan. Usual theory is that she was severed, Healed by a woman and thus lost strength from the Healing.

[SilkWWU]

I always lurk in the shadows, but Mr. TruperTuper or whatever is hillarious.  I will enjoy watching you progress along the track to the end :)

[chris777]

ohhh, am i caught up to him now, or is he just not posted that he finished Crossroads yet?

=)  I will start that book tonight.

 

Towards their reincarnations, though --->He made Lanfear less powerful than before, which actually does make sense, since she seems less cooperative than others.

So it makes sense to make a tool less useful to you? Not really. There is no benefit to be gained from weakening her, which is why it is doubtful that was done by Shai'tan. Usual theory is that she was severed, Healed by a woman and thus lost strength from the Healing.

 

Why is that the theory?  She just 'appeared' weaker.  She mentioned being held by the Aelfinn and Eelfinn.  But never mentioned how she got out of that.  It was assumed...was it said...by the Forsaken that she was Lanfear reincarnated.  Which would assume that she died, and wasn't severed...so it had to be DO that made her weaker.  If she was severed and healed, DO never resurrected her so how does Moridin have her?

[Mr Ares]

She didn't just appear weaker, she actually is. What have we seen in the series that can cause that? Just someone being severed and Healed. Last we saw of Lanfear she was disappearing into a violently malfunctioning ter'angreal, and we've been told about how dangerous ter'angreal are and how they can burn you out. Shai'tan has absolutely no reason to weaken her - He has her on a short leash due to the mindtrap, but weakening her only hampers her ability to no corresponding gain. If she died and came back, she would still be severed if she was severed beforehand. So burnt out going through, dies, brought back, Healed by a woman. It all fits information we have, doesn't require anyone doing anything stupid or inventing new powers or abilities for anyone. It's the best theory we have on the issue.

[chris777]

She didn't just appear weaker, she actually is. What have we seen in the series that can cause that? Just someone being severed and Healed. Last we saw of Lanfear she was disappearing into a violently malfunctioning ter'angreal, and we've been told about how dangerous ter'angreal are and how they can burn you out. Shai'tan has absolutely no reason to weaken her - He has her on a short leash due to the mindtrap, but weakening her only hampers her ability to no corresponding gain. If she died and came back, she would still be severed if she was severed beforehand. So burnt out going through, dies, brought back, Healed by a woman. It all fits information we have, doesn't require anyone doing anything stupid or inventing new powers or abilities for anyone. It's the best theory we have on the issue.

That sentence meant, "She just appeared" and "She was weaker".  She came out of nowhere, weaker then Lanfear.  And when you say healed by a woman...we are assuming men can completely heal a woman stilled, and women can completely heal a man stilled?  But same sex healings make the person weaker?  It makes sense considering what's happened, but that's never been said or even hinted at thus far. 

It's a decent theory.  And so is Shai'Tan making her weaker because he knew what she had been thinking, and how she acts.  The 'finns coulda made her weaker then killed her.  Could have stilled her then resurrected and Shai'tan healed her stilling but purposely not the whole way.  But if she actually died, then Moraine died too..which I don't want to believe.  But if she didn't die, and escaped or was released, where is Moraine?  I would assume they would each have the same treatment from the 'finns..tho i guess you can't really assume that, but they don't seem to care if your forsaken or aes'sedai.

=/

[Kadere]

That sentence meant, "She just appeared" and "She was weaker".  She came out of nowhere, weaker then Lanfear.  And when you say healed by a woman...we are assuming men can completely heal a woman stilled, and women can completely heal a man stilled?  But same sex healings make the person weaker?  It makes sense considering what's happened, but that's never been said or even hinted at thus far. 

 

Not only is it obvious in the book seeing as how Suian and Leane were both healed by a woman and made weaker in Lord of Chaos, while in Winter's Heart Damer heals Irgain back to full strength, but RJ has stated point blank that men healing women and women healing men restore the other to full power, while if the same genders do it to each other they do not return to full power.

 

And so is Shai'Tan making her weaker because he knew what she had been thinking, and how she acts.

 

That's the theory. The Dark One isn't exactly kind to those who betray him.

 

The 'finns coulda made her weaker then killed her.  Could have stilled her then resurrected and Shai'tan healed her stilling but purposely not the whole way.

 

That's another theory. We don't know what took place in Finnland though, so we go with what we got.

 

Obviously Cyndane is Lanfear in a new body, so at some point Lanfear must have died and her soul returned to another body. Many believe that when Lanfear and Moiraine went through the doorway holding the power they were burned out on the other side. If true then some how Lanfear escaped, possibly through death, and she was then punished after her rebirth by being healed by a woman and only brought to partial strength.

[magnutz]

It seems to me that you are looking for easy, quick, answers to many of the characters and what will happen to them. Be prepared for: It won't be easy, for any of them. A long journey for them and one for you as well if you stick to the story.

 

I'll, for one, read your takes on the story as you read it to see what you think about it and what your reactions to the answers you have will be.

 

Have a good read!

[chris777]

It seems to me that you are looking for easy, quick, answers to many of the characters and what will happen to them. Be prepared for: It won't be easy, for any of them. A long journey for them and one for you as well if you stick to the story.

 

I'll, for one, read your takes on the story as you read it to see what you think about it and what your reactions to the answers you have will be.

 

Have a good read!

 

Not sure if you're talking about me or the OP.  But I am definitely not looking for answers to what happens to anyone.  I hate any type of spoiler.  I just like to talk about possibilities and what I think might happen, to see if I end up being right.  And as far as the long journey and if we are going to "stick to the story".  I think aftering reading the FIRST TEN BOOKS...pretty evident that a person would finish the rest, considering there isn't many more.

=)

[magnutz]

It seems to me that you are looking for easy, quick, answers to many of the characters and what will happen to them. Be prepared for: It won't be easy, for any of them. A long journey for them and one for you as well if you stick to the story.

 

I'll, for one, read your takes on the story as you read it to see what you think about it and what your reactions to the answers you have will be.

 

Have a good read!

 

Not sure if you're talking about me or the OP.  But I am definitely not looking for answers to what happens to anyone.  I hate any type of spoiler.  I just like to talk about possibilities and what I think might happen, to see if I end up being right.  And as far as the long journey and if we are going to "stick to the story".  I think aftering reading the FIRST TEN BOOKS...pretty evident that a person would finish the rest, considering there isn't many more.

=)

 

:) I was referring to the original post. ;) He made a lot of guesses and wanted to know a lot of stuff after having read only book 1. No one gets closure that early in The Wheel of Time and I felt the silly need to tell him that. :D

[Mr Ares]

And so is Shai'Tan making her weaker because he knew what she had been thinking, and how she acts.

No it isn't, because it fails to address the principal objection which has already been raised - why woud He make his tool weaker, less effective, when He is already punishing her with the mindtrap? The mindtrap keeps on a short leash, with no loss to Shai'tan, weakening her is a net loss to Shai'tan, as He now has a weaker channeler than He had before.

The 'finns coulda made her weaker then killed her.

Except we don't know such a thing is possible. The only thing we have seen cause a comparable drop in strength is the Healing of Siuan and Leane.

But if she actually died, then Moraine died too..which I don't want to believe.

No. Lanfear was held for a time, her thoughts confirm that. And even if they didn't, one being dead does not automatically mean the other is too.