The Metaphysics of the Wheel

[MatrixM]

I've completely forgotten what we're discussing now...

[Mr Ares]

Why wouldn't the DO order his chosen to continue using balefire?

Why would they obey an order so counter to their own self interest?

Why do they obey any orders from the DO, knowing what his ultimate plan is?

They don't. They think they are going to live forever and rule the world. Ishamael thinks differently, but everyone thinks he's crazy. Self-delusion plays a part. They want to rule the world, so they're eager to believe His promises.

 

As for "reshaping the world in his own image", we here cannot agree on what that means. Why should the Chosen?

[SinisterDeath]

You have to remember, that when looking at RJ's creation story, he's not only taking mythology from say, christianity (Good vs Evil, God vs Satan. heaven vs hell) the Pattern/Wheel its self is, as you could say, the very 'Nature' of the universe.

 

The creator for all intensive purposes, IS RJ. And with a 'spark' he created WoT.

The Wheel/Pattern are the rules of the universe. There are rules he, the creator has to follow. And with that, for every 'good' there has to be an 'evil' so to speak.

And going by the first book, we know that the Dark One was sealed out of the pattern, from the moment of creation.

 

Think of it like this.

You want to drive your car. But you don't like the exaust.

You can try driving it with out Gas, but the byproduct is always going to be Exaust.

Thats what the Dark one is, He IS the Patterns 'opposite' to reality.

 

If you will, The universe the Creator Created is made up of Energy & Matter.

The Dark One, is Anti-Matter/Energy, that unlike regular Matter/Energy has become Self Aware.

It wants to be free from its 'self', but in doing so would destroy reality.

And considering how Long the DO has been imprissoned, destroying its self and all of creation isn't something that I'd doubt a self-aware entity thats been locked in a closet wouldn't mind doing.

 

Aim of the DO is to get free so he can destroy the Pattern.

Therefore if the DO does win, Pattern will be destroyed. Completely.

That includes Time, so past, present and future would not exist.

Therefore the entire Pattern effectively never exists.

Hence it's not possible for the story to be told.

Therefore if there is a story to be told, the Dark One can't ever have won in the whole past, present or future of the Pattern.

Story exists.

Therefore Shai'tan is a loser.

Q.E.D.

 

Fortunately, Quantum Mechanics Don't work that way.

If the DO did win, existance 'after' he won would cease to exist, but existance before, wouldn't.

So seeing how the story exists, doesn't prove or disprove that the DO hasn't won in the future, only that he might 'win', Both possibilities are possible.

And the One fact that it is possible.

 

The DO already Won in one universe. And yet.. the entire pattern hasn't ceased to exist... Odd hmm?

(remember that way-stone portal rand & hurin went through, and they were in the land that lost to the DO? Thats one existance where the DO won in the past.)

 

The DO isn't simply fighting this battle on 'this' plane of existance, he is fighting it on ALL planes of existance, every possibility that may have had a different outcome, and created an alternate reality, the DO is fighting on that plane.

He is playing a game of 3d Chess, that spans into infinity. In essense, you could say he has an 'infinite personalities', to deal with each reality on an individual level. Each Reality he wins, IS more power to the rest. And thats where the 'threat' comes from. The more he wins, the more powerful he becomes. Even if The DO wins on this 'reality' another 6 ages after its dealt with, he can be free again, and by then, even more powerful. But that might also create a never ending battle, of worlds where for every 1 he wins, he becomes stronger, but everyone he loses, it creates another thousand different realities, weakening him...

 

Now, If the DO is the oppossite of the Creator, that would mean to destroy him, you would have to destroy the creator. And in doing so would mean giving up the OP.

However, since I believe the DO is a by-product of creation its self, that destroying the DO would just allow a New DO into the world, not imprisonned. Or, You would escentially have to destroy creation its self.

 

Lewis Therins last hint to Rand I believe is the most staggering clue we have to Rands puzzle.

Why do you wish to be reborn?

To try again.

To live you must die.

 

The DO can not be destroyed nor can you destroy Gravity, or matter, or energy. RJ was a physcist, and thats one of the rules in his world, nothing can ever truelly be created nor destroyed. But, since if As I propose that the DO is anti-matter/energy, and creation is matter/energy, They obviously exist and don't exist at the same time +1,-1 =0. (which ironically is also probably true in our universe. ;)) Even balefire never truelly 'destroys', Even the 'souls' of a person aren't actually gone forever, they just aren't merely 'spun out' until the next age.

 

Destroying the Wheel or the Pattern its self.

That will just mean destroying the very Laws of the Universe its self.

That, could probably be worse than destroying existance.

[MatrixM]

No, he drew the wheel from religion as well.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_of_time

 

Existence before the Dark One is freed would also be destroyed as stated in the books (past, present and future remade in his image). As Mr Ares said, the reason whyimperium3 is incorrect is because the past would exist up until the moment the Dark One is released, like balefire.

[drunkengrizzly]

 

 

The DO already Won in one universe. And yet.. the entire pattern hasn't ceased to exist... Odd hmm?

(remember that way-stone portal rand & hurin went through, and they were in the land that lost to the DO? Thats one existance where the DO won in the past.)

 

i've seen so many people get this one wrong and its just annoying.  in that world, the trollocs won the trolloc war.  it was subsequently depopulated as all the humans were eaten, and the trollocs proceeded to kill each other off.  there was no "world" where the dark one already one

[MatrixM]

In short, I don't agree with Sinister Deaths' theory.

 

Another thing, there is no indication that the One Power is to the Creator what the True Power is to the Dark One.

[µ231282083275]

Why wouldn't the DO order his chosen to continue using balefire?

 

i thought he did - or least kind of floated the possibility?

 

The DO already Won in one universe.

 

he isnt free in that universe.  if thats what it means for the do to "win". 

 

also can the do truly win if rand dies?  why not just kill him then?

 

are steddings snarls in the pattern - remnants of threads from an earlier (later?) age when channeling was impossible?

[Mr Ares]

are steddings snarls in the pattern - remnants of threads from an earlier (later?) age when channeling was impossible?

I think they are more likely to be bits of another world, one where people don't channel - that's why the Ogier don't, they're slices of their world. In which case, I suspect they will depart with the Ogier. I think the Blight is something similar, so when Shai'tan is defeated it will vanish. No hard facts for this, though.

[analyticalkeys]

are steddings snarls in the pattern - remnants of threads from an earlier (later?) age when channeling was impossible?

I think they are more likely to be bits of another world, one where people don't channel - that's why the Ogier don't, they're slices of their world. In which case, I suspect they will depart with the Ogier. I think the Blight is something similar, so when Shai'tan is defeated it will vanish. No hard facts for this, though.

 

I don't know about the steddings disappearing, but the rest definitely makes sense. I always wondered if the Ogier Gardeners from Seanchan are attached to the steddings in the same way, and if not, then why not?

[Mr Ares]

are steddings snarls in the pattern - remnants of threads from an earlier (later?) age when channeling was impossible?

I think they are more likely to be bits of another world, one where people don't channel - that's why the Ogier don't, they're slices of their world. In which case, I suspect they will depart with the Ogier. I think the Blight is something similar, so when Shai'tan is defeated it will vanish. No hard facts for this, though.

I don't know about the steddings disappearing, but the rest definitely makes sense. I always wondered if the Ogier Gardeners from Seanchan are attached to the steddings in the same way, and if not, then why not?

The Seanchan Ogier don't have the Longing, according to RJ, because there were (and are) more stedding on that side of the Aryth, so they never lost them.

 

Further to my theory, the Blight and stedding cannot be entered in T'a'r, IIRC. This would be because they are parts of other worlds, rather than a part of this one - you reach the edge in T'a'r, and there is, in a sense, nothing there, nothing to go to - those places are elsewhere in T'a'r (as T'a'r touches on all worlds). Does that make any sense? No? Good.

[µ231282083275]

haha yah - i thought that other worlds were (at least "theoretically" lol) reachable via tar i remember verin claiming that the world of dreams cuts across all worlds but jordan was often imprecise w/terminology (i.e. the difference btw the "other" worlds and the "parallel" worlds at least w/r/t the pattern and tar)

 

your idea that the ogier are from another world is p credible - more than mine is anyway - this seems like one of the few things that touches directly on the nature of time and space w/in the wheel we might see resolved

 

as for the blight ive always thought it couldnt be entered because the do is corroding the pattern there - thus its not longer "connected" to the pattern in a way that causes it to be reflected in tar.  interesting tho that rhuidean was shielded in tar as well, ive always wondered about the nature of the ter'angreal there

[Bob T Dwarf]

Three places that I can think of were not reachable from T'a'R.

 

Rhuidean before the standing flows were undone.

Finnland itself, even though the ToG was represented there.

Any part of the Blight, including Shayol Ghul.

 

Not sure about Aridhol/Shadar Logoth, or the hole that remains.

[jemron]

Three places that I can think of were not reachable from T'a'R.

 

Rhuidean before the standing flows were undone.

Finnland itself, even though the ToG was represented there.

Any part of the Blight, including Shayol Ghul.

 

Not sure about Aridhol/Shadar Logoth, or the hole that remains.

 

Also, the Stedding and another persons dreams if they are warded.  What about the Ways?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Also, the Stedding and another persons dreams if they are warded.  What about the Ways?

 

I'd guess not.  Too much chance for Machin Shin to somehow gain entrance and pollute the place.

[jemron]

Can Machin Shin survive outside of the Ways?  I didn't think so...

[Superus Sophia]

Where does all the information in the book about the nature of the pattern come from? I don't know if RJ ever utilized the idea, but not all narrators or characters have to be telling the truth in a story.  I was just wondering where all the information ultimately comes from.

 

Most of the information concerning the Age of Legends comes from the time period itself, either the few writings still around, or the characters who remember (Forsaken, Lews Therin, pre-TGS Birgitte).  That seems to be mostly acceptable as truth, there is no reason for that information to be corrupted.

 

However, the question of how much they knew about the nature of the Pattern is a little suspect.  They obviously knew about it, and studied it.  The vacuoles themselves were explored during the Age of Legends, according to Semirhage (or was it Graendal?), and is supported by the attitudes and actions of the other Forsaken in that scene.  This indicates a heightened awareness and knowledge of the Pattern far beyond what most know in the Third Age.  I have kind of thought about the AoL Aes Sedai as being similar to our quantum physicists thanks to that scene.  However, despite that, they had apparently no knowledge of the Dark One until they discovered the Bore.

 

So, as of three thousand years before the Dragon is reborn, humanity has no knowledge of the Dark One.  Therefore the litany about the Creator sealing away the Dark One is a creation of the Third Age, and cannot be taken as truth.

 

Of course, nobody prays to the creator or ever really refers to him in the books except for the litany and some of Rand's thoughts and discussions with Herid.  They always pray to the Light.

 

I would propose, therefore, that there is no Creator, except as a pseudo-religious construct of the Third Age.  As such, we only know for certain that there is a Dark One and The Pattern/Wheel.

 

There is a second questionable aspect to the AoL knowledge of the Pattern.  If the Pattern truly is cyclical and repeats entire Ages, then the Dark One has been free and resealed before.  But the AoL didn't know that.  Therefore the only character with any knowledge about the constant, reoccurring war between the Shadow and the Light, is the Dark One himself (or Birgitte before her past memories started fading, but she never gives any of that information away).  All speculation by the the characters in the books, from Herid Fel, to Rand, to Ishamael, comes from information given by the Dark One.

 

And we only have a few clues to his true motivations.  We have his type of followers.  He tends to draw greedy people.  He attracts those prone to violence and preying off of others.  He draws a few others, Asmodean claims he did it for Ages of music, and Aran'Gar/Balthemel did it for knowledge, but for the most part its a desire for power and a Machiavellian outlook on life.  We also have a small look into his conversations with the Forsaken, which doesn't reveal much beyond being frightening and demanding obedience.  We can also probably take Fain's memories, what little we have, as accurate as well.

 

Beyond that, we have no knowledge of the Dark One, what his nature is, or what his motives are.  Maybe the answer lies in the True Power that supposedly only the Dark One can bestow.  What if the True Power was what the bore contained, and Lews Therin and Co found it, and one person weilded it and was corrupted absolutely by it.  We know it corrupts with a terrible cost, as known by Moridin and Moghedien, so what if a massive exposure to it actually turned someone into the Dark One, a person insanely powerful with the True Power who created the idea of a reaccuring battle between himself and a fictitious "Creator" in order to fulfill a corrupted ego, an extreme example of the type of corruption that took Shadar Logoth.  This new being was so powerful the Hundred Companions decided to seal him back into the Bore he appeared to come from.  At the end of the Third Age Rand kills him and there really isn't a Dark One when the Age of Legends comes back around.

 

Now the only thing I can think of that indicates the tight, cyclical nature of a Pattern that spews out a Dark One every once in a while is that damned game piece Moridin has of the Fisher.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

Where does all the information in the book about the nature of the pattern come from? I don't know if RJ ever utilized the idea, but not all narrators or characters have to be telling the truth in a story.  I was just wondering where all the information ultimately comes from.

Ogier, Heroes of the Horn, The Creator, ter'angreal... Lots of possibilities. Heroes of the Horn must know a lot. The Finns might know a few things. Dreamers have profetic Dreams...

 

So, as of three thousand years before the Dragon is reborn, humanity has no knowledge of the Dark One.  Therefore the litany about the Creator sealing away the Dark One is a creation of the Third Age, and cannot be taken as truth.

Maybe it's just something they believe.

 

I would propose, therefore, that there is no Creator, except as a pseudo-religious construct of the Third Age.  As such, we only know for certain that there is a Dark One and The Pattern/Wheel.

RJ said the DO is the dark counterpart to the Creator. And that only the Creator and the Dark One are outside the Pattern & the Wheel.

 

 

[Ashaman DeRouge]

No. True Power doesn't make you feel like vomiting, make you decay alive, go mad etc. Also, Rand would attempt to grab saidin but only get the taint, unable to channel.

 

I'm not sure about that. We don't really know the effects of TP (long term) on non-dark or non-protected channelers, tapping it just a touch each time. Ishmael was loony, and correct me if i'm wrong but its usually associated with the TP? perhaps the dark one's protection is merely clearing them a 'clean' access to the OP.

 

I dont think we know enough to prove or disprove it either way. In regards to Rand grabbing the OP, picture drinking a beer, you go to drink the liquid, but the liquid pushes a little bit of foam before it.

 

Man I love analagies involving beer!

 

Yeah, but... you can't channel the foam. And the foam doesn't feel 10x as good as the one power.

 

I don't think it involves actively channeling the foam at all, it's not intended to be grabbed, it's just pushed before it, forced into you a tiny amount each time. Also, if it's just the tinest amount, you perhaps wouldn't notice that euphoria in the initial rush of grabbing the source itself. It's well documented how good it feels, I think it'd be easy to pass the TP surge off in the first instant you start channeling.

 

Those black lines, long rumoured to be protection, fit in with this. The DO's protection may be merely shielding them from the TP, enabling them to grab untainted OP.

 

*shrug* I find this compelling I guess.

[MatrixM]

Seriously? Okay, what about the absence of saa? And just a trickle of the power gives you euphoria (I'm referring to when they fail at grabbing the source and only get the taint). And wouldn't they feel less pleasure after the cleansing if the true power were gone?

 

Although I do believe you are right in essence about the protection, but from just the taint.

 

Beyond that, we have no knowledge of the Dark One, what his nature is, or what his motives are.  Maybe the answer lies in the True Power that supposedly only the Dark One can bestow.  What if the True Power was what the bore contained, and Lews Therin and Co found it, and one person weilded it and was corrupted absolutely by it.  We know it corrupts with a terrible cost, as known by Moridin and Moghedien, so what if a massive exposure to it actually turned someone into the Dark One, a person insanely powerful with the True Power who created the idea of a reaccuring battle between himself and a fictitious "Creator" in order to fulfill a corrupted ego, an extreme example of the type of corruption that took Shadar Logoth.  This new being was so powerful the Hundred Companions decided to seal him back into the Bore he appeared to come from.  At the end of the Third Age Rand kills him and there really isn't a Dark One when the Age of Legends comes back around.

It was the true power that the age of legends aes sedai detected. However, you can only channel as much True Power as you can One Power, so they wouldn't get enough corruption and I don't see how they could get a sudden power boost and be able to distort the pattern itself. Also, there's the whole darkness descending after the bore was drilled, which implies that there was already a Dark One.

[b9anders]

So, as of three thousand years before the Dragon is reborn, humanity has no knowledge of the Dark One.  Therefore the litany about the Creator sealing away the Dark One is a creation of the Third Age, and cannot be taken as truth.

 

Ishamael reports this as being the case. And the other forsaken comment on his theories (though they don't believe it) that the creator and the dark one have fought for ages through select champions. It's possible this is just a theory, but I reckon Ishamael has some privileged info on this.

 

The fact that he is Naeblis is probably an indicator that he understands the motivations of the DO at least to a certain extent. The other forsaken are after all driven by quite a different understanding of the DO's motives.

 

Beyond that, we have no knowledge of the Dark One, what his nature is, or what his motives are.  Maybe the answer lies in the True Power that supposedly only the Dark One can bestow.  What if the True Power was what the bore contained, and Lews Therin and Co found it, and one person weilded it and was corrupted absolutely by it.

 

Lanfear originally drilled the bore looking for a 'true power', so it is very probable  that it was indeed the true power that was released with the drilling of the bore, alongside the DO (or they are simply one and the same).

 

 We know it corrupts with a terrible cost, as known by Moridin and Moghedien, so what if a massive exposure to it actually turned someone into the Dark One, a person insanely powerful with the True Power who created the idea of a reaccuring battle between himself and a fictitious "Creator" in order to fulfill a corrupted ego, an extreme example of the type of corruption that took Shadar Logoth.  This new being was so powerful the Hundred Companions decided to seal him back into the Bore he appeared to come from.  At the end of the Third Age Rand kills him and there really isn't a Dark One when the Age of Legends comes back around.

 

Unlikely, as we have seen the drilling of the bore and people there survived to pass the tale as well and this give no indication at all that something like this happened.

[Diederichos]

If the Dark One wins, supposedly he stops the pattern and stops all of existence. What would happen to the creator in that case, would he be held in a prison of sorts and 'everything' would be in a state of non-existence until such a time as the creator somehow got freed and existence restarted again? If that's the case, the Dark One can't be killed nor stopped permanently and statistics would have it that at least once the Pattern would be destroyed and the creator imprisoned for a time? This would imply that the Creator and the Dark One are essentially equal, ying and yang, two facets of the same; in their case existence and non-existence.

 

Or is it more like the Creator is God(our God) and the DO is the devil, wherein he tries to destroy everything, but ultimately, the devil is not God's equal. And if this were the case, is this 'Pattern' one of many such 'Patterns' that the Creator made. A sort of cosmic "multi-verse".

[clu7ch]

look at it this way. If the DO's only goal was to destroy existence itself, i.e. the pattern and everything, then he is in fact not an entity himself, rather a massive destructive force with no motive or personality or capability. Think of it this way, according to that statement, the DO is actually a massive balefire weave of the TP, when he is free, according to that theory, everything is no-more.

 

Olden gods and entities all had motives and goals. I suggest that the universe doesn't stop. the DO would have goals, and things, otherwise he'd be perfectly content hanging out in his prison. We know for a fact that the DO isn't just a mass of destructive energy, because he's talked on occasion, and has his avatar running around willy-nilly. I'd say we've gotten a pretty good luck at the world if the end-game goes south for the heros, with Rand's trip thru the portal stone.

 

I do however think that the creator isn't really comparable to our God, because if I was him, and had me some omnipotence, and realized when I burped the universe, I farted the DO, i'd do a little more than seal him away. 

[Canis Rufus]

Within the analogy of the pattern to describe time then we must accept a few thing within reason, first that there are threads and second that there is movement.  Now with that reasonable assumption then there can only be three possible outcomes of the “pattern.”  First the pattern repeats itself.  Second the Pattern ends.  Or lastly the pattern changes into a new pattern.  These ideas are present throughout the books, Tavern pull the pattern to shift probability bail fire removes a thread back to a time and the horn brings thread back into the pattern.  So, an idea I have proposed in another thread but may fit better here, we should assume that the pattern is current like a Möbius strip.  This would allow the rebirth of heroes and the idea of ‘a current age for some an age yet to come for others and an age long past’. (sub phrasing)  Running with this idea one can assume that the story has three outcomes.  The DO wins and the pattern ends “stopping the wheel,” Rand wins and the pattern starts a new not without the dark one but without the cycle repeating and finally, the control, nothing happens and it all starts over.  The Do I think was always there but had no real hold on the world.  Using the Christian idea of heaven and hell the pattern separated the creator and the DO when the Bore was made it twisted the pattern in on itself dooming it the repeat over and over on the same path.            

 

 

 

[1eejit]

look at it this way. If the DO's only goal was to destroy existence itself, i.e. the pattern and everything, then he is in fact not an entity himself, rather a massive destructive force with no motive or personality or capability.

Does not necessarily follow.

[Worm]

I've been re-reading the series and in one of the books (TDR I think but maybe TGH) something called the Great Pattern is mentioned.There are also mentions of the pattern of the ages and the age lace throughout the books.

 

Can anyone answer me if I ask is there any difference between these things? Is the great pattern the same as the pattern and the pattern of the ages? Or is it possible that the great pattern is different? I'm a bit confused.