Mesaana (Full Spoilers)

[mossman87]

I have my suspicions that this HAS been done to Taim however.

As do I... so this is my guess Firebird. Hardly a controversial topic (we all know Taim is bad) but I think 2 RJ comments give the hint. First, the 13/13 process magnifies somebody's not-niceness. Second, RJ said Taim was never a nice guy. Second comment could of course mean he was always a Darkfriend but I personally lean to 13/13 now.

 

This is a fun new chip to chew on.  I think this calls for a new thread...

 

ADMINISTRATORS!!!!  WE DESPERATELY NEED YOU TO START A NEW THREAD, OR i GUESS I COULD GIVE IT A WHIRL!  

 

Either way lets take this chat off of Messaana's holy thread.  

 

Oh and by the by, from reading some of Sheriam's POV's I believe it was done to her, but that is all I will say, NEW THREAD TIME FOR A NEW TOPIC

 

I just got this mental image,

 

 

[WolfDragonFox]

Yeah that is hillarious Mossman hahahah.  He's dead though so for him to show up here has to be the touch of the Dark One! 

 

Anyway my buddies and I solved this whole Messaana thing just as stated by Dunderdan, but as to the question of Egwene's logic in narrowing it down, I came away from that with the understanding that she hadn't finished narrowing or figuring it out becasue she had too many other things to do at the time.  Yes the logic is incorrect just like BS says and the reason he said it is because Messi is Danelle so since she is not on the suspect list as of yet, it stands to simple reason that her logic is WAAAAY of right now.

[FanoLan]

Yeah that is hillarious Mossman hahahah.  He's dead though so for him to show up here has to be the touch of the Dark One! 

 

Anyway my buddies and I solved this whole Messaana thing just as stated by Dunderdan, but as to the question of Egwene's logic in narrowing it down, I came away from that with the understanding that she hadn't finished narrowing or figuring it out becasue she had too many other things to do at the time.  Yes the logic is incorrect just like BS says and the reason he said it is because Messi is Danelle so since she is not on the suspect list as of yet, it stands to simple reason that her logic is WAAAAY of right now.

 

Now this could be hilarious because, with the repetition throughout the post, one could conclude you believe this as fact.  Trying to not be rude here, but please realize that Danelle has been the leading candidate for Messy's identity for quite some time.  If you are trying to be funny, please clear that up for me - I'm certainly not the best at deciphering the plethora of senses of humor percolating through this board.

 

Also, the quote from BrS says Egwene's logic is not incorrect.  Meaning what she has laid out is accurate while also intimating that it is incomplete reasoning - which we know to be true.  I agree that other matters have interfered with her ability to solve this riddle, but she is on the right track per BrS.  As such, the facts laid out above by Sharaman could be parsed for additional insight to Messy's identity.

[jemron]

I think this issue was settled some eight pages ago: Its Danelle, she can mask her strenght and shes sworn shes not BA or a darkfriend, because shes not. Shes a Forsaken. Theres tons of evidence supporting the Danelle theory in this thread if you go back and read it.

 

 

IMO you are right about her being able to say she's not a DF or BA, but she would disagree with you on one point.  To her, she's not even a Forsaken, she's one of the "Chosen."  She could even probably say straight out "I am not a Darkfriend, I am not Black Ajah, and I am not one of the Forsaken."

 

 

[WolfDragonFox]

No I am not being funny when I say we solved it but please know for certain that all of us are profoundly aware that she has been the leading suspect especially since I can only speak for myself, that I have had her as my leading suspect since I first read the entire series without pause during a 2 week span in summer of 2007 not to mention having had my suspicions before that as well but things flow so nice when you read them without years or months between.  I've done this power read of all the books in a row 7 times including the most recent one when I bought TGS.  I know I didn't come up with it and I don't take any credit for solving anything, just presenting some nice evidence with quotes, passages, and gut feeling mixed with what everyone else put forth as a question about her being Danelle.  

 

My question is why people get so easily prickled and offended if someone suggests any accomplishment or presents a theory they find to be absurd (not saying you are doing this FanoLan as I too cannot decipher emotion in your question to me without blatant punctuations or any emphasis inducing italics bold or caps.)

 

Its a forum, who cares what people think, if you dont like or agree, state so in a polite manner and disregad for the rest of you browsing and posting.  

 

ONCE AGAIN not talking about you FaoLan just that your post to me got me thinking that I needed to say this somewhere because some forum posters just piss me off with the haughtiness.  Oh well nothing to be done about it i suppose.  Later guys/gals.

[WolfDragonFox]

Jemron as always I like your way of thinking on this and how you took it beyond just Darkfriend and BA.  If they truly believe in their heart of hearts that they are Chosen and not the given names of those opposed then this could be absolutely possible IMO!

[jemron]

No I am not being funny when I say we solved it but please know for certain that all of us are profoundly aware that she has been the leading suspect especially since I can only speak for myself, that I have had her as my leading suspect since I first read the entire series without pause during a 2 week span in summer of 2007 not to mention having had my suspicions before that as well but things flow so nice when you read them without years or months between.  I've done this power read of all the books in a row 7 times including the most recent one when I bought TGS.  I know I didn't come up with it and I don't take any credit for solving anything, just presenting some nice evidence with quotes, passages, and gut feeling mixed with what everyone else put forth as a question about her being Danelle.  

 

My question is why people get so easily prickled and offended if someone suggests any accomplishment or presents a theory they find to be absurd (not saying you are doing this FanoLan as I too cannot decipher emotion in your question to me without blatant punctuations or any emphasis inducing italics bold or caps.)

 

Its a forum, who cares what people think, if you dont like or agree, state so in a polite manner and disregad for the rest of you browsing and posting.  

 

ONCE AGAIN not talking about you FaoLan just that your post to me got me thinking that I needed to say this somewhere because some forum posters just piss me off with the haughtiness.  Oh well nothing to be done about it i suppose.  Later guys/gals.

 

Here here!  Raises goblet.

[moffwolf]

Danelle is brown. Verin would surely have found a brown sister who was even slightly off-kilter since she was looking for Messy. Browns are knowledge-workers and scholars. To masquerade as Brown, Messy would need to not only look and act like said sister and mask enough of her power to pass(Easy enough let's say); she would also have to display the same specialised knowledge of exactly whatever the sister specialised in. That's really tough - you can look like a prof in an university but her colleagues will wonder what's wrong if you don't know that person's subject as well. A casual reference to say, a paper on insects in Mayene might trip her up.

Doubly dangerous for Messy because if she actually knew the subject, she might well know more than the AS she was pretending to be. That would be like a Nobel prize-winner trying to act like a raw sophomore.

Much safer to pretend to be a White sister (pure logic is a specialisation that Messy would surely know) or a Gray (grays travel and are solitary, less likely to have friends). Even a yellow (if she knows healing).

The unmasking by SH suggests she was using an ageless face since Alviarin found her only vaguely familiar like the way Salidar AS reacted to Leane and Siuan.

Her clothes (silk dresses, not accepted many colour-banded nor pure novice white) also suggests sister, not servant or novice-accepted.

She is not a (mere) Darkfriend. So, no hassles swearing on the Rod.

 

 

Sharaman- here were your reservations on Messy = Danelle earlier.  I think I can answer them.  It would be pretty easy to take Danelle away and use compulsion on her to get the info on her.  Once Messy spends a few hours grilling her, she could easily go to the library and study up on whatever subject danelle s a specialist in, at least enough to get by in casual conversations.  Messy's background as a great researcher fits this.  Plus Danelle being a loner and not having any friends helps in the situation. 

 

Clothes are meaningless, as Danelle's using an illusion any way.  Further discussion on this on pages 7-8; wolfdragonfox has a bunch of quotes that I think might help.  If you have further arguments, I'd like to hear them because I'm pretty convinced Danelle = Messy. 

 

 

On the oath rod- there's a lot of discussion on here as to whether or not or how Messy can beat the oath rod.  It's pretty clear she can.  They were obviously used a lot in her time, and being a researcher/forsaken she found a way to get around them.  The answer may be as simple as being able to say "I am not a darkfriend" because she's better than that.  See lanfear in the beginning of TDR; she regarded darkfriends with disdain.  Clearly, she does not consider herself one, so why should messy? 

 

I think the hunt for messy and the bloodknives will be a big part for egwene to play, as others have stated.  I believe BS said that RJ's notes on Egwene were the most detailed, so I think we're in for a treat here.   

[Sharaman]

I am open to Danelle= Messi and I'd stated the way around the oath rod myself in the BA thread. (Before this thread was even opened)

That post you qouted was just laying down one possible reason why Messi may choose to impersonate somebody else (not Brown).

However when I put down the Egwene lists, my point of interest was that Eg doesn't have this info. readers have. 

So, she has to come to find Messi logically, whoever Messi may be posing as.

And I think there's a missing link in the chain of logic as laid down by BS.

Or at least, I can't see it.

So if Eg conclusions are "not incorrect", I'm puzzled.

 

[FanoLan]

No I am not being funny when I say we solved it but please know for certain that all of us are profoundly aware that she has been the leading suspect especially since I can only speak for myself, that I have had her as my leading suspect since I first read the entire series without pause during a 2 week span in summer of 2007 not to mention having had my suspicions before that as well but things flow so nice when you read them without years or months between.  I've done this power read of all the books in a row 7 times including the most recent one when I bought TGS.  I know I didn't come up with it and I don't take any credit for solving anything, just presenting some nice evidence with quotes, passages, and gut feeling mixed with what everyone else put forth as a question about her being Danelle.  

 

My question is why people get so easily prickled and offended if someone suggests any accomplishment or presents a theory they find to be absurd (not saying you are doing this FanoLan as I too cannot decipher emotion in your question to me without blatant punctuations or any emphasis inducing italics bold or caps.)

 

Its a forum, who cares what people think, if you dont like or agree, state so in a polite manner and disregad for the rest of you browsing and posting.  

 

ONCE AGAIN not talking about you FaoLan just that your post to me got me thinking that I needed to say this somewhere because some forum posters just piss me off with the haughtiness.  Oh well nothing to be done about it i suppose.  Later guys/gals.

 

Do you even realize the contradiction in your post above?  Are you trying to impress us with your credentials as WoT reader by talking about your 2007 intro and multiple re-reads since?  Some folks share their WoT history in order to let people know a bit about them, maybe to shed light in their first few posts that they have been with the series for while.  What is your point?

 

In two or three different threads, you wrote posts declaring you had solved the identity of Messy - not a leading candidate, or likely possibility, but undoubtedly solved.  In this particular thread, you completely dismissed the post by Sharaman (which had required at least some thought and effort to compose) basically by saying "I already solved it, move on to something else." Despite the fact a salient question had been raised, did you add to the conversation with your post at that point?

 

So yes, it got a bit annoying the second time in this thread dedicated to Messy, but why should anyone have to wade through your erroneous self aggrandizement in multiple threads?  This board attracts many perspectives and opinions, and generally I ignore the nonsense to get to what brings me here - thoughtful, different takes on a series I thoroughly enjoy.  If you don't care what people think, and don't care to consider what other people think, why are you even engaged with this forum?

 

On a board where many folks are at least as well versed in the series as you, and many folks are more so, perhaps you should try a little more tact in your postings.  Otherwise, quit whining when get taken to the woodshed by some haughty poster.

 

Some of your posts appear to have been well thought out and are generally well presented (except the CAP INFATUATION).  Sometimes your posts make no sense - like Sheriam being forced to turn BA. Danelle is the most likely candidate for Messy, I would probably even wager on it; in fact I did make that bet just after New Year's Day '01, not long after WH had been published.  Oh wait, it was me that solved Messy = Danelle, might as well lock this thread now and everyone move on to something else with your slow witted selves.

[grolm]

What would it do to the plotline if a Bloodknife kills Messy's alter ego without ANY character learning who she really was? That seems possible, as Messy wouldn't know they are there, although she might recognize the ter'angreal they use. Nothing I found though, said those devices were from the AOL, but nothing said they were a post breaking Seanchan invention either.

 

Messy has a huge advantage vs Egwene in that she knows who Egwene is, and will probably learn (if she doesn't know already from the Cleansing of the ajahs) that Egwene has a list of BA members from Verin. Messy can simply AVOID Egwene and make herself very scarce, making it hard for Egwene to catch her, although our little girl is now grown up enough to come up with a plot to snare a Forsaken.

[WolfDragonFox]

Okay FoaLan here are the facts about me and this is in NO WAY me retaliating.  I know the typed word can seem different to everyone who reads it.  There is no actual contradiction to what i post because the the conceited seeming posts about solving the messi thing so no one needs to try anymore was just me having fun with moffwolf and jemron and all the others i was messaging back and forth with.  Since you weren't in on those I understand how it can be taken wrong and apologize to you or anyone that may have felt we and mostly me were calling you slow witted.  And as for my re-read comment, it shouldn't come off as offensive because I have found that most Avid WoT fans do the same all the time, most more than me.  

 

Secondly, just to clarify something, I do not have a CAP infatuation.  During the week I shoot commercials mostly and do music videos and every chance I get I work on feature film sets.  I worked through a 24/7 accelrated bachelor's program for 2 years (just fact not bragging cuz all my classmates did the same) to get to do what I love everyday.  I am always on call but lucky that I almost never have to work weekends, so during the week I am responding to you all on my lunch break during a 12-18 hour shoot day, depending on the project.  I only us CAPS to make my points because I type fast and use the quick reply option at the bottom of the page so that i can scroll up and see posts in order to respond to many or just cerain parts of long ones.  If i don't do this I will go options crazy on the reply page.Its just a time saving thing so I can relax for the rest of my hour, nothing more...glad we got that all cleared now lets be buddies and help each other out solving more mysteries like I do with my other posting buds on here.

 

Either way thanks for hearing (reading)me out.  And everyone please go to the Towers of Midnight speculation thread and see what you think of my newest post there on the tower of Ghenji party and break it down.

[mossman87]

I'm so confused, how does you having a job prove you don't have a caps infatuation?

 

Anyway I call stealth brag post.

[FanoLan]

OK, so my infatuation with Verin led to another re-read of Chapter 39.  Given how RJ sprinkled clues to mysteries in seemingly unrelated passages, I assume BrS is doing the same.  Near the beginning of the Verin-Egwene sit down, I think BrS included another clue that supports the Messy=Danelle conclusion.  From Egwene's thoughts: "What better way to hide than as an unassuming Brown, constantly dismissed by the other sisters because of your distracted, scholarly ways."

 

I know Egwene is thinking of Verin and that this line perfectly describes the shady brown's activities, but it also certainly corroborates part of the reasoning behind Messy=Danelle.

[Crael123]

my guess is that she is Laras. she could get away from the Oath rod that way and also she help suian escape and tried to get egewene to escape

[FanoLan]

my guess is that she is Laras. she could get away from the Oath rod that way and also she help suian escape and tried to get egewene to escape

 

What about Verin's explicit refutation of that point in Ch. 39?  As someone who has studied the BA for years and obviously knows Laras, how could Verin be so wrong when she says Laras would never swear to the GLoD?

 

Additionally, Laras has been in the Tower for at least 21 years and is more than passingly familiar to her entire staff of under-cooks, scullions and the like.  And further, we've seen the limitations of contact on the MoM, how could Messy go around under such a drastic illusion without anyone bumping into her and destroying the image?

[WolfDragonFox]

Well as far as the job goes, i guess you gotta do it to understand the time constraints but that has no bearing here anymore. 

 

As to FanoLan's pointing out of Verin's "what better way" quote.  I think this has potential to be brought up in an Egwene POV in ToM when she is thinking back on that conversation with Verin and then she ties it together with the most suspicious acting Brown in the Tower.  Connect all of Danelle's actions during the time of turmoil and she figures it out.

 

"Danelle, please report to the Amyrlin's office."    Nice.

[wumpus]

Will the binder actually work on one of the chosen/forsaken? We know the DO breaks the oaths the BA previously swore and replaces them with his own, but given that the chosen/forsaken are special - e.g. the dark one reincarnates them etc, is there any reason they couldn't just be immune from the binder's effects?

[Mr Ares]

Will the binder actually work on one of the chosen/forsaken? We know the DO breaks the oaths the BA previously swore and replaces them with his own, but given that the chosen/forsaken are special - e.g. the dark one reincarnates them etc, is there any reason they couldn't just be immune from the binder's effects?

So far as we know, there is no reason why the Chosen should be immune to the effects of a binder. And the BA remove the Three Oaths with the Oath Rod, before replacing them with their own.

[wumpus]

Doesn't Verin say something about the Dark Friend oaths being binding on channelers? She makes it sound like the BA do not use the rod, that is why she was only hoping the binder would remove her oaths not sure of it.

[Vulgir]

Doesn't Verin say something about the Dark Friend oaths being binding on channelers? She makes it sound like the BA do not use the rod, that is why she was only hoping the binder would remove her oaths not sure of it.

 

I dont think its ever specifyed that the BA swear on the Oath Road to the DO, though i feel some facts lean away from the  DO oaths being sworn on the rod. Simple darkfriends swear to the dark one and are apparantly bound as well. You asked weather the BA swear on the oath rod to the DO. When the Tower sisters are searching for BA they use the oathrod to unbind the Black Sisters they find, and i beilve theres a comment that they're reaction to the breaking of the DO's oaths were a much more painful reaction than when they themselves used the Oath rod to Unbind them from the 3 oaths.

 

TPoD,Ch26 - Seaine and Pevara discover that the Oath Rod can also be used to remove the oaths, but the experience is quite painful.

 

WH,Prologue - Saerin, Seaine, Pevara, Doesine and Yukiri use the Chair of Remorse on Talene and force her to forswear her Black Ajah oaths on the Oath Rod. Then the force her to reswear the Three Oaths and an additional oath of obedience to them

 

I think Verin was more concerned not about weather the rod would break the oaths, rather that she could actually get her hands on it. Hope that helps

[wumpus]

Here it is

 

"The oaths one makes to the Great Lord are quite specific," she finally continued. "And, when they are placed upon one who can channel, they are quite binding. Impossible to break.

pg 601

 

If it were just the oath rod setting them she would have no reason to say that, she would just say they were sworn on the oath rod.

 

Regardless, my first plan was to find the Oath Rod, then see if I could use it to remove the Great Lord's oaths.

pg 604

 

We know the Oath Rod can remove the Oaths, Verin did not. If it were just on the oath rod, obviously it could be removed just like the other oaths, ergo the oaths to the Dark One are not taken on the Oath Rod.

 

"The process of making those oaths to the Great Lord was ... distinctive."

pg 604

 

There is obviously something special about the oaths which Eg would not have a frame of reference to. It is hinted the Oaths affect channelers in a specific way making them binding like the oath rod, and it is shown in the quotes from 604 they are not sworn on the Oath rod.

 

Since travelling was unknown for so long, and passages from previous books with the Dark Friends, I'd think it happens in the dream world or something similar.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Doesn't Verin say something about the Dark Friend oaths being binding on channelers? She makes it sound like the BA do not use the rod, that is why she was only hoping the binder would remove her oaths not sure of it.

We know the BA do use the Rod. They swear three new Oaths in place of the three of normal AS, so as to maintain the ageless look.

[wumpus]

Doesn't Verin say something about the Dark Friend oaths being binding on channelers? She makes it sound like the BA do not use the rod, that is why she was only hoping the binder would remove her oaths not sure of it.

We know the BA do use the Rod. They swear three new Oaths in place of the three of normal AS, so as to maintain the ageless look.

 

See my above post on this. Where in the books do we ever see confirmation they use the rod for their oaths? Further, do we have any evidence the ageless look goes away when the oaths are removed? I tend to think not. When stilled the ageless look goes away as we saw with Siuan, but when just removed it does not as we've seen the oaths removed and resworn without the ageless look disappearing in the interim. The quotes from Verin indicate there is another mechanism at work similar to the oath rod, but different and from the darkone. What about dark channelers from other areas? There must be some, if they suddenly took on an ageless face that would be remarked.

[csarmi]

Talene, Verin

 

We actually do know they do.