Mesaana (Full Spoilers)

[grump]

Thanks Jake,  I didn't feel comfortable about telling everyone where to go. and to find something I wrote 6 months ago, before the site was even fully up too.

I don't suppose you looked at it long enough to see what is there and read the free samples or check what else was being sold or the prices involved.

 

Yep you are right ! My WOT stuff is currently at [YARDSALE SITE REMOVED]

 

Thanks again Jake

 

the grump

[Kivam]

Hey Jake     You see a website identified anywhere in my message? Should you manage to figure out where to go, you would have noted that there are some WOT

articles accessable to any one at no charge. In fact one contains a hint to how I found Mesaana.

 

Anyhow I will repeat again, there is some great misdirection at work about those 2 

 

The grump

 

Grump - if you want to post your theories here, you're welcome to.  Do not advertise for yard sale sites, even if they are "selling" WoT theory articles.

 

Sincerely,

 

The Management

[grump]

Mamagement:  I'm sorry, but if you will look, nowhere in my last 3 messages did I ever bring up the website in question. Please talk to jake about that, he was responsibile for both labeling and making the judgement to reveal it. I WAS at fault for confirming it however. I'm sorry .

 

As pennance I will reveal the clue that put me on the road to finding Mesaana.

I figured out why she didn't come, and that narrowed the search enough to pick up the other clues that were left.

 

I will be more careful in future.

 

thanks    grump

[Casabamelon]

If you have a theory, please post it. If you think you look smart by acting mysterious... you're only impressing yourself.

[Eht Slat Meit]

If you have a theory, please post it. If you think you look smart by acting mysterious... you're only impressing yourself.

 

After googling that conversation, I suspect it's more about charging a $1.00 for the privilege of reading the Theory, rather than looking smart by acting mysterious.

[saidarisnowtainted]

ok, well then lets see if the hint helps.  We can think for ourselves. has it been discussed?  how does messy's failure to show at the cleansing help narrow the suspects?

[Calderis]

I honestly think your giving to much credit to someone who's obviously trying to take advantage of people's interest.

[BladeDancer]

If you have a theory, please post it. If you think you look smart by acting mysterious... you're only impressing yourself.

 

I believe Grump has stated that he thinks Mesaana is Verin in disguise. This theory is subsequently discredited in TGS imo. However Grump  has interpreted the Verin revelations as being a cunning feat of misdirection by Mesaana.

 

I do not think it credible myself. Mesaana's position is worse off now that Egwene has purged the Black Ajah. Mesaana's stated plan to the other Forsaken of delivering a White Tower serving the Shadow has been dashed. If Verin was Mesaana's cover identity then she can no longer use it as Verin is now thought dead. Then you get the whole thing about Verin somehow convincing Egwene she was dead from poison, not to mention why Verin would previously help defend Emond's Field from Trollocs or help find the Horn of Valere or help Matt get helped from the Dagger's influence.

 

The theory is a bit barmy imo.

[grump]

Blade  It almost sounds as though you might have read that free article on the not to be named website.  In it I explain that the research I did on Verin was  very helpful when she was eliminated as Mesaana. The misdirection is she is not anywhere where that people are currently looking for her. Then if you list all the reasons why she might not have showed up and pick the right one, there are about 8 clues scattered in books 6-10  that show this same sister acting like Mesaana.  Even in the article i didn't use her name, because everyone will have to track her for themselves until they are as convinced as I am. Yep I wouldn't mind making a buck or two, but the WOT stuff is just a very small part of that effort.

I may be wrong, but if I'm not it's nice to know I got there first.

 

the grump

[WolfDragonFox]

Blade  It almost sounds as though you might have read that free article on the not to be named website.  In it I explain that the research I did on Verin was  very helpful when she was eliminated as Mesaana. The misdirection is she is not anywhere where that people are currently looking for her. Then if you list all the reasons why she might not have showed up and pick the right one, there are about 8 clues scattered in books 6-10  that show this same sister acting like Mesaana.  Even in the article i didn't use her name, because everyone will have to track her for themselves until they are as convinced as I am. Yep I wouldn't mind making a buck or two, but the WOT stuff is just a very small part of that effort.

I may be wrong, but if I'm not it's nice to know I got there first.

 

the grump

 

Well if your answer is Danelle which is what I and many others, if not most others believe, then you got there last IMO, its embarrassing that you are allowed to post here multiple times without giving any actual theories.  I say you go start a site of your own, market yourself by the rules and see if you get hits and if anyone cares.  This is a place for shared theories not clues to theories since we've all read the books already.  As I can only speak for myself, I could care less for your goose chase, I came to my conclusions from reading and posted them and discussed them, if you can't do the same I personally would like you to not post anything ridiculous like this again, but since I have no authority all I can give is MO.

[JakeBarnes]

Blade  It almost sounds as though you might have read that free article on the not to be named website.  In it I explain that the research I did on Verin was  very helpful when she was eliminated as Mesaana. The misdirection is she is not anywhere where that people are currently looking for her. Then if you list all the reasons why she might not have showed up and pick the right one, there are about 8 clues scattered in books 6-10  that show this same sister acting like Mesaana.  Even in the article i didn't use her name, because everyone will have to track her for themselves until they are as convinced as I am. Yep I wouldn't mind making a buck or two, but the WOT stuff is just a very small part of that effort.

I may be wrong, but if I'm not it's nice to know I got there first.

 

the grump

 

So... you're admitting that you're wasting everyone's time with a trash site to make a buck.

[TheTraveler]

Hi All... a DM newbie here.

 

I confess that I haven't had time to read ALL of the theories in this thread.  But I want to make the case that Mesaana is definitely LARAS.

 

Why?  I think it makes the most sense the she would have the hardest time leaving the WT to travel to Shadar Logoth or anywhere else since she runs the kitchens and so often has to physically BE there.

 

I think that Mesaana, being a scholar, is smart enough to know that all of the other Forsaken would expect her to be impersonating a sister if she was hiding in the WT.  Knowing that, she has been doing/saying things to make all of them think she is impersonating a sister. 

 

As Laras (who herself has likely been killed and hidden away somewhere via Traveling), Mesaana has access to all of the sisters who are Black Ajah and ALL of the WT's rumor mill through her trusted relationships within the kitchen.

 

As Laras, she would have wanted to get Siuan and Leana out of the tower... not thinking they could be healed of stilling, but just to add tension and worry to the plate of the new Amyrlin.  Not knowing what happened and where they might have gone is at least *something*.

 

As Laras, she DEFINITELY would want Egwene sent back to the rebel camp to keep the division going.

 

Laras never has to be concerned with being exposed since she is NOT a sister!  No Oath Rods, no suspicion of any kind.  Would Mesaana be foolish enough to pose as someone who would then have to constantly be on her guard?  Or as the hiding type (like Moghedien), would she give the appearance of doing that while instead living safely in the shadows and conducting her war of attrition from the kitchens?

 

~TheTraveler

[redarm]

Welcome Traveler!

 

I agree with you.  I have stated this before in this thread.  She is in a position that won't raise suspicion and where she will quickly find out anything and everything that is happening in the tower.  She can easily disguise herself just as Lanfear had done earlier in the series, and hide her ability to channel. I don't know how long she has been there but I agree it would seem logical that she would want to help Siuan and Leane to leave. Laras is as good a choice as any. There is no reason to assume she is AS, even though other Forsaken believe so. 

[Gordar]

Hi All... a DM newbie here.

 

I confess that I haven't had time to read ALL of the theories in this thread.  But I want to make the case that Mesaana is definitely LARAS.

 

Why?  I think it makes the most sense the she would have the hardest time leaving the WT to travel to Shadar Logoth or anywhere else since she runs the kitchens and so often has to physically BE there.

 

I think that Mesaana, being a scholar, is smart enough to know that all of the other Forsaken would expect her to be impersonating a sister if she was hiding in the WT.  Knowing that, she has been doing/saying things to make all of them think she is impersonating a sister. 

 

As Laras (who herself has likely been killed and hidden away somewhere via Traveling), Mesaana has access to all of the sisters who are Black Ajah and ALL of the WT's rumor mill through her trusted relationships within the kitchen.

 

As Laras, she would have wanted to get Siuan and Leana out of the tower... not thinking they could be healed of stilling, but just to add tension and worry to the plate of the new Amyrlin.  Not knowing what happened and where they might have gone is at least *something*.

 

As Laras, she DEFINITELY would want Egwene sent back to the rebel camp to keep the division going.

 

Laras never has to be concerned with being exposed since she is NOT a sister!  No Oath Rods, no suspicion of any kind.  Would Mesaana be foolish enough to pose as someone who would then have to constantly be on her guard?  Or as the hiding type (like Moghedien), would she give the appearance of doing that while instead living safely in the shadows and conducting her war of attrition from the kitchens?

 

~TheTraveler

 

I haven't read N, but according to encyclopaedia WOT Laras was already around by then. Since every woman that has been raised to accepted & Aes Sedai since NS would know Laras pretty well, I think it's kinda hard for Mesaana to impersonate her.

[bronnt]

Mesaana is Danelle.  That woman has always been suspicious to me, and in context with comments from BrS and RJ, it should be conclusive by this point.

 

How does Mesaana defeat the OR? Theories:

 

1) Some loophole in the Oaths.  I personally hate that she might have escaped because of the "Under the Light," clause.  It's said earlier, by Galina, that the UttL clause is not necessary on an Oath Rod because it binds you to what you say.  Likewise, I don't see her actually forswearing all of her Oaths and actually swearing the TOs in the hopes, somehow lying about being a DF, then hoping to find the OR again later to remove the TOs.

 

2) Protection from the DO-I kind of like the idea that the Forsaken have some kind of protection due to their status/markings in order to prevent them turning back against him.

 

3) Someone earlier suggested using an inverted weave of Air to hold the Rod, so that it actually doesn't touch her skin.  I like this idea, and think that it could work really well in conjunction with Mask of Mirrors.  It seems clear that you have to contact the Rod in order for it to work.

 

4) Another suggestion that I like (one I had thought of myself) was that she didn't kill Danelle, but instead took her place and has her bundled up somewhere.  So she put Danelle under Compulsion and trotted her out as a proxy to retake the Oaths for her.  This seems like something a clever enemy might come up with, and it doesn't require adding mysterious new knowledge into the storyline to conveniently explain away how she pulls it off.

 

5) Mysterious Forsaken knowledge-she uses some weave that cancels out the OR since she's from the AoL and knows so much stuff.  This is a weak solution-it suddenly invents something that's never before been even suggested under the guise of "forgotten knowledge," so you can't dispute it.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Personally, I'm not completely convinced that Danelle IS Mesaana, though I am convinced that they are linked. The bit that I mentioned over in the Demandred thread, regarding the prologue to TFoH and Danelle's part in it was a sinker for me.

 

My suspicion is that Danelle is Mesaana's darkfriend proxy, allowing her access to the Hall while Mesaana uses a more inconspicious identity to have access to the rest of the Tower.

 

Starting to notice a possible trend in the Brown as well, that makes sense with Mesaana using that Ajah as her hiding place.

[wumpus]

 

5) Mysterious Forsaken knowledge-she uses some weave that cancels out the OR since she's from the AoL and knows so much stuff.  This is a weak solution-it suddenly invents something that's never before been even suggested under the guise of "forgotten knowledge," so you can't dispute it.

 

I don't see this as a weak solution. In the AoL the binders were used as a punishment, so one could assume the person overseeing the process would have a better knowledge of how it worked, and would take safeguards to ensure bindings were properly used. I doubt they criminal would be allowed to channel while using it, and Ter`angreal during the AoL were powered by the standing flows eliminating any hanky panky from making it look like you're channeling into it or somesuch.

[Taura-Tierno]

While it's possible that a glove of Air might work (or something like that) it's equally possible that the glove won't protect the person. I mean, since the weave is woven by the same person, the effect might just pass through it, and into Mesaana (or whoever would attempt such a thing). Since reversing weaves is an AoL-thing, it's possible they designed the OR so that you could not cheat it like that.

[bronnt]

 

I don't see this as a weak solution. In the AoL the binders were used as a punishment, so one could assume the person overseeing the process would have a better knowledge of how it worked, and would take safeguards to ensure bindings were properly used. I doubt they criminal would be allowed to channel while using it, and Ter`angreal during the AoL were powered by the standing flows eliminating any hanky panky from making it look like you're channeling into it or somesuch.

 

It's weak because this world is over 20 years old now, and the rules are fairly well established.  If we're just going to say "Oh, this doesn't actually work the way we think because the Forsaken know more stuff," it's tough to say that we know anything about the OP with any certainty.  It's a very opaque device for the author, but so much about how things in Randland work are meant to be transparent.  RJ worked hard to explain all the rules to us over his life.  Moreover, it's tough for the series to continue to be thought-provoking when you can instantly fabricate solutions to problems like that.  Even when Rand completed the piece d'resistance, cleansing saidin, there were hints about how it would be done in the story before it happened.  It would be a shame to defy that convention at this point.

[grump]

Jake    From the beginning  YOU are the one who has introduced and re introduced this mythical website.  Not me, What's your problem bud ?

I got chewed out and have moved on.  Don't you have any ideas about mesaana to present?

i would like to look them over.

 

the  grump

 

 

[Calderis]

Jake    From the beginning  YOU are the one who has introduced and re introduced this mythical website.  Not me, What's your problem bud ?

I got chewed out and have moved on.   Don't you have any ideas about mesaana to present?

i would like to look them over.

 

the  grump

 

Present an idea yourself, rather than the vague hints, before you criticize anyone else. You've given us all reason to criticize you. Until we see something with substance on your end, you've kinda made yourself into this boards "don't be like that douche" example. Please, start some actual contribution, or shut up.

[Sharaman]

I don't think Mesaana = Laras.

Two reasons 1) Graendal thinks  M is pretending to be an AS and Graen is having her watched. That strongly implies that Graen knows exactly who M is impersonating.

2) On one occasion, Alviarin meets Mesaana during the day. She duly arrives wearing a bronzed silk dress. During the day, Laras would be at her duties and that's definitely not what Laras wears in the kitchen. Also Laras would find it tough to simply disappear from the kitchen during the day though she could of course, excuse herself, quick-change into a bronze silk dress, just in case the MoM she's using slips, etc. But that seems far-fetched. 

 

[Muirenn]

Grump, Calderis, enough. 

 

Next person to post personal attacks against another poster gets the thread closed.  Behave everyone.

[Calderis]

Meh... Sorry. I'll shut it.

[JakeBarnes]

Danelle seems like the best suspect at this point.  But if that is the case, what would have caused her to miss the Cleansing?

Mesaana was also missing from the Forsaken meeting where Rand's plan to cleanse Saidin was revealed.  According to the timeline, The cleansing occured on March 8, and the meeting happened on February 17.  This extends the window of Mesanna being occupied with other matters to at least this date.  On February 6th, the BA hunters unmasked Zerah as a spy and Talene as black.  

This, and Elaida sending Narenwhin to Dorlan to speak with Gawyn are the only 2 instances which would occupy her during this time.

 

So, a list of sisters in the WT who were occupied at this time gives us: Narenwhin, Saerin, Seaine, Doesine, Yukiri, Pevara, Talene.  Talene is a 'no' because the oath rod worked on her.  Seaine and Pevara are out, because they are purposefully searching for the BA.  Saerin seems like a good choice because she doesn't allow Talene to attend the BA meeting, and then forward the plans to the hunters.  The others, who knows.