Mesaana (Full Spoilers)

[Sharaman]

Granedal's spies knew who she was -- at least that's implied. But Graen's spies were probably BA who are dead/ fled.

If she's passed the OR, by whatever means, she is temporarily safe from discovery.

One thing RJ did apparently say was that you could remove the oaths by channeling with a "shadow" rod in TAR.

Messi now controls almost all the dream ter-angreal so only Egwene can follow her there and she is stronger than Egwene 1:1 though Egwene's greater control of TAR would balance that. A duel between Egwene - Messi in TAR may be fun. 

Messi would have to remove oaths asap if only to use the OP as a weapon and also to prevent her lifespan being cut.

That apart, assassination must be on the cards as a possible course of action from her PoV.

I'm increasingly wondering whether the Bloodknives play a role.

 

 

[witsd]

A small point against the Tsutama theory is that Mesaana is not seen wearing red.

And bronze is closest to brown...

[USURP888]

Back when Mat was in the white tower, Lanfear came to him and during their discussion she denied being a darkfriend. Her POV clearly indicated she feels she is above those "set" or "class" of the Dark Lord's servants.  I would assume that all of the Forsaken(Chosen) feel the same way and in that respect, it is quite simple for Mesaana to swear she is not a darkfriend and therefore escape detection via the Oath Rod.

 

 

[Sharaman]

We don't have a Lanfear PoV until WH as Cyndane.

Lanfear does seem to consider mere Friends of the Dark with contempt but she could also be lying.

Maybe Messi has a more elegant way around the OR.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

Saying "I'm not Black Ajah" would probably be easier for her than saying "I'm not a darkfriend"? Those who swore seemed to swear different things... Pick and choose?

[BladeDancer]

Back when Mat was in the white tower, Lanfear came to him and during their discussion she denied being a darkfriend. Her POV clearly indicated she feels she is above those "set" or "class" of the Dark Lord's servants.  I would assume that all of the Forsaken(Chosen) feel the same way and in that respect, it is quite simple for Mesaana to swear she is not a darkfriend and therefore escape detection via the Oath Rod.

 

 

 

Yeah but we don't know the exact words that Egwene made the Tower Aes Sedai say.

 

It is important though that Egwene knows that Mesaana is in the Tower even if she escaped detection during the initial re-swearing during the Purge. Egwene will keep investigating and hunting for Mesaana. It would be out of character for her to complacent about this issue. The Black Ajah have previously only been able to thrive because Aes Sedai would refuse to accept that the Black Ajah would be real. Now that the Black Ajah are known to be real, the Aes Sedai will have to step up security and watch for infiltration especially now that the Last Battle is approaching.

 

It was a shock to me that so many Black Ajah existed. It must have been a HUGE shock to the Aes Sedai themselves when the sheer numbers of Black Ajah were exposed. Pevara was expecting maybe less than a score - not the hundreds that existed. The Black Ajah were able to become so powerful because they were hidden. Now they are exposed and most of them known to the other Aes Sedai - I presume that Egwene has circulated a list of known Black Ajah sisters around the White Tower and to the Tower Guard and Tar Valon authorities. With a very large number of Black Ajah being executed - there must be many warders (who were not Darkfriends) who need consoling using Myrelle's techniques! We don't know how the non-Darkfriend Warders to Black Sisters will be able to be seperated from the Darkfriend Warders. Presumably some of the Black Ajah who have fled have left their non-Darkfriend Warders behind - maybe they can be used to locate their bonded Sister, in a similar way to how Alanna was able to track a kidnapped Rand (or Birgitte and a captured Elayne).

 

Anyway the exposure of the Black Ajah should ensure that the Aes Sedai are more vigilant and this will mean that Mesaana is more in danger of being detected for acting suspiciously. A problem that Egwene will have is that Travelling is becoming more widespread and so it is impossible to keep track of Sisters coming and going. You cannot just control access to the various Gates and Bridges - Sisters can Travel at will. Egwene could set up some sort of wards around the White Tower that prevent (or detects) Travelling Gateways and tell every Aes Sedai that they must only Travel to and from certain designated areas. Any unauthorised Travelling could then be detected and investigated. Egwene would now realise that the White Tower is a key target for Seanchan strikes and that the Seanchan will possibly have Travelling as a consequence of their air-strike on the Tower. Egwene should be concerned that the Seanchan will attack the White Tower again via Travelling gateways and use this method to drop an Army on Tar Valon. This alone would be reason to attempt to control, detect and investigate Travelling Weaves in the White Tower. Of course Mesaana could probably invert her Gateways so that she could Travel in and out without detection.

 

The fact that the Seanchan now likely have Travelling and more current information about the White Tower layouts and the Key locations within the White Tower (from all their new captures) would make the possibility of a second more significant strike at the White Tower a very real possibility. OK this will probably not happen for story purposes, but Egwene cannot assume otherwise. So security should be stepped up within the Tower just to watch for possible Seanchan invasions. This extra security would make it harder for Mesaana to sneak around without being noticed. The White Tower is a big building with many empty areas - it is too easy to sneak around in (performing Black Ajah interrogations, Black Ajah conversion parties, Amyrlin rescue expeditions) that as it stands, it would be too easy to drop a Gateway in and march the Ever Victorious Army in before anyone notices. So Egwene should take precautions which would also hinder Mesaana sneaking around stealing Library books.

[USURP888]

We don't have a Lanfear PoV until WH as Cyndane.

Lanfear does seem to consider mere Friends of the Dark with contempt but she could also be lying.

Maybe Messi has a more elegant way around the OR.

 

 

 

When I say her POV, I don't mean a chapter devoted to what Lanfear is thinking. After Mat was healed, he was visited by Lanfear and she says she's no darkfriend to answer Mat's unvoiced questions. In that instance, she clearly was not lying.

 

As far as she (and I guess all of the forsaken) were concerned, darkfriends are mere tools for the chosen to be used. You dismiss my post by saying she "could" be lying...then immediately used a conditional "maybe" to prop up your equally undocumented argument.

 

@BladeDancer

 

  I would think the best vow to flush out Mesaana would be to say " I do not serve the Lord of the Dark or the Dark One". But from the way Egwene made the rebel sisters swear, she was ok with them stating the vows themselves..remember when Egwene had all the rebel hall sitters reswear the oaths, Romanda states "I am no darkfriend" and never have been".  And when Egwene confronted Sheriam, she asks.."Are you Black Ajah?".  I would assume that is the same vow all of the tower Aes Sedai would use to show they are not the enemy. Clearly it is not enough since Mesaana has managed to elude it.

 

  It has been shown before that the oath rod binds you to tell the truth as you see it, when the rebel spy (forgot who) was caught by the black ajah hunters, they cannot force her to say that the red ajah was not behind logain's rise and fall..because that is the truth as the rebels see it. If Mesaana and the rest of the chosen clearly believes they are no mere darkfriend and certainly not black ajah, she would have no problem stating it even bound by the oath rod.

 

  As far as the other argument goes that Mesaana must know a way to take off the oath rod bind, I also believe that is true, but during the moment of rebinding via the oath rod and the re-swearing, the other sisters would be present and she would have to take off the oath rod bind after she has made her vows before the rest of the Aes Sedai.

 

 

[BladeDancer]

 

@BladeDancer

 

  I would think the best vow to flush out Mesaana would be to say " I do not serve the Lord of the Dark or the Dark One". But from the way Egwene made the rebel sisters swear, she was ok with them stating the vows themselves..remember when Egwene had all the rebel hall sitters reswear the oaths, Romanda states "I am no darkfriend" and never have been".  And when Egwene confronted Sheriam, she asks.."Are you Black Ajah?".  I would assume that is the same vow all of the tower Aes Sedai would use to show they are not the enemy. Clearly it is not enough since Mesaana has managed to elude it.

 

  It has been shown before that the oath rod binds you to tell the truth as you see it, when the rebel spy (forgot who) was caught by the black ajah hunters, they cannot force her to say that the red ajah was not behind logain's rise and fall..because that is the truth as the rebels see it. If Mesaana and the rest of the chosen clearly believes they are no mere darkfriend and certainly not black ajah, she would have no problem stating it even bound by the oath rod.

 

  As far as the other argument goes that Mesaana must know a way to take off the oath rod bind, I also believe that is true, but during the moment of rebinding via the oath rod and the re-swearing, the other sisters would be present and she would have to take off the oath rod bind after she has made her vows before the rest of the Aes Sedai.

 

 

 

Maybe Mesaana knows that the Oath Rod is not binding if you cross your fingers! ;D

[USURP888]

Maybe Mesaana knows that the Oath Rod is not binding if you cross your fingers! ;D

 

RAFO !  ;D

[SimpleJo]

It makes utter sense that Mesaana is Brown given she is a RESEARCH SCIENTIST (Basically what the Brown Ajah is both in purpose and function).  It would be child's play for her to masquarade as a current Brown specialty and all. 

[Sharaman]

We don't have a Lanfear PoV until WH as Cyndane.

Lanfear does seem to consider mere Friends of the Dark with contempt but she could also be lying.

Maybe Messi has a more elegant way around the OR.

 

 

When I say her POV, I don't mean a chapter devoted to what Lanfear is thinking. After Mat was healed, he was visited by Lanfear and she says she's no darkfriend to answer Mat's unvoiced questions. In that instance, she clearly was not lying.

 

Your basis for saying "clearly" she was not lying? Since you don't have a PoV and Lanfear was not under the Oath Rod?

 

 

As far as she (and I guess all of the forsaken) were concerned, darkfriends are mere tools for the chosen to be used. You dismiss my post by saying she "could" be lying...then immediately used a conditional "maybe" to prop up your equally undocumented argument.

 

I and several other people have made the same arguments earlier in the thread, which you "maybe" did not bother to read.

I'm using a conditional because, as you say yourself, they are equally undocumented possibilities.

I'm not dismissing your post - just saying that in the absence of a PoV or some other external proof, Lanfear could be lying. You have no proof that she isn't.  

 

It makes utter sense that Mesaana is Brown given she is a RESEARCH SCIENTIST (Basically what the Brown Ajah is both in purpose and function).  It would be child's play for her to masquarade as a current Brown specialty and all. 

 

It depends on the specialities and how similar they are. Could a physics Nobel prize winner successfully pretend to be a historian? What if Danelle's speciality is something as obscure as trading systems in Shara, or butterflies in Mayene, which an AOL-ite would know nothing about and it would take somebody else years to pick up?

Messi joined GLoD because she wasn't much good as a researcher. She was refused a research post at Collam Dann. So I have my doubts about this though the other indicators are good for Danelle.

 

 

[USURP888]

Your basis for saying "clearly" she was not lying? Since you don't have a PoV and Lanfear was not under the Oath Rod?

I and several other people have made the same arguments earlier in the thread, which you "maybe" did not bother to read.

I'm using a conditional because, as you say yourself, they are equally undocumented possibilities.

I'm not dismissing your post - just saying that in the absence of a PoV or some other external proof, Lanfear could be lying. You have no proof that she isn't.  

 

I agree with your points, and yes I've read all the other posts here. What I am saying is that in the absence of definitive proof, your conclusion and my conclusion hold the same weight. Either of us could be right or both of us could be just as wrong.

 

The chosen clearly think themselves apart not just from the other servants of the Dark Lord, but also from the rest of humanity. It's like asking Rand if he's just another Ashaman, or asking the Amyrlin if she's just another Aes Sedai or asking Gareth Bryne/Rodel Ituralde/Davram Bashere if they are merely soldiers. There is a clear distinction and status separating them from the rest. Hence, when Lanfear told Mat that she's no darkfriend, I do not believe she's lying.

 

[Morsmordre]

I've never thought that Lanfear thinks of herself as a servant of the DO at all. Her actions are her own. I view her as a neutral evil being, like Fain, but the only thing that shows that she's a Forsaken is her bond to the DO. She had been to evil to be from the Light and that's why they banished her, making her one of the Dark.

[Sharaman]

Her statements in TDR, TSR and FoH suggest she is indeed a servant of GLoD.

" Bathed in his radiance at Shayol Ghul",

"It would be blasphemy to call him the DO",

"Chosen not Forsaken",

Also "I am not As Sedai" when the Supergirls find her; her rage when Asmo calls her Mierin (though she doesn't object to Rand using that name) also suggests she has left her origins behind.

She resented being bossed by Ishamel, and would prefer to be Naeblis

She would have taken the power of the CK and been prepared to challenge GLoD and become "neutrally evil".

But she is GLoD's servant, not a free agent, even before she is mind-trapped.

 

 

 

[Taura-Tierno]

It's like asking Rand if he's just another Ashaman, or asking the Amyrlin if she's just another Aes Sedai or asking Gareth Bryne/Rodel Ituralde/Davram Bashere if they are merely soldiers.

 

But Amyrlin is Aes Sedai. It's even in their laws :P And I do believe that Bryne/Utralde/Bashere consider themselves to be soldiers. Very skilled generals and definitely the average soldiers, but soldiers nontheless. Don't know about Rand, though, but the Asha'man is quite a new concept.

[BladeDancer]

I think Lanfear was well aware she was a servant of the Dark One but she was playing her own game and was not content to follow the Forsaken gameplan. Lanfear really just wanted to get back LTT and hopefully together overthrow the Dark One and rule the Galaxy etc. Lanfear did not seem too bothered about the Last Battle. I guess she planned to be reunited with the Dragon by then.

[Vermillion]

I think Lanfear was well aware she was a servant of the Dark One but she was playing her own game and was not content to follow the Forsaken gameplan. Lanfear really just wanted to get back LTT and hopefully together overthrow the Dark One and rule the Galaxy etc. Lanfear did not seem too bothered about the Last Battle. I guess she planned to be reunited with the Dragon by then.

 

I don't think Lanfear was all that "evil," more like a sick obsessed woman.  She seemed to just want power and LTT.  I think she could live as a peaceful ruler with Rand and the DO dead lol.

[Sharaman]

Depends on your definition of "evil" and peaceful but she kills people a little too casually for comfort.

Skinning Kadere is a somewhat extreme reaction to bad news as is her WH dismissal of another poor DF.

Can you imagine what would happen if she thought her companion looked sideways at another woman?

If she's not "evil", she's still so out of control that she needs to be put to sleep like a rabid dog.

[BladeDancer]

I think Lanfear was well aware she was a servant of the Dark One but she was playing her own game and was not content to follow the Forsaken gameplan. Lanfear really just wanted to get back LTT and hopefully together overthrow the Dark One and rule the Galaxy etc. Lanfear did not seem too bothered about the Last Battle. I guess she planned to be reunited with the Dragon by then.

 

I don't think Lanfear was all that "evil," more like a sick obsessed woman.  She seemed to just want power and LTT.  I think she could live as a peaceful ruler with Rand and the DO dead lol.

 

She was just a bunny boiler with the ability to really make a scene!  ;D

[grump]

I've been gone for a while. I think RJ, Brandon and Harriet have pulled 2 of the greatest feats of misdirection in the world.  They have everyone looking everywhere but where Mesaana and Demandred really are. Mesaana gets pretty regular mention from book six on. Book ten contains the one big hint everyone keeps talking about. figure that out and use it as a starting point and she is pretty easy to track. There are even a couple of sideways hints in TGS.

 

Demandred was a lot tougher, I have only found 4 places in the entire series where he has broken cover.  one of them was in TGS and is pretty blatant.

 

I've published my thoughts on these 2 and other characters elsewere , but maybe this article will help you out a little in your search

 

the grump

[saidarisnowtainted]

i could see things unfolding as follows:

 

bloodknife attacks Messy, Messy is forced to defend herself and in so doing reveals that she has been masking her strength in the OP/reveals how strong she is in the OP.

 

Messy gets outed.  Booya.

[redarm]

I once thought Laras was Messana.  Completely mask the one power.  Is far too willing to go against Aes Sedai in sneaking girls arund and whatnot.  Plus we have already seen one Forsaken use weaves to hide her true form and cover it in the body of a large overbearing woman (Lanfear).  This, added to the fact that Egwene can't seem to find her among the initiates of the tower leads me to believe it is someone else.  Laras is in a perfect position.  She will hear all the gossip in the tower and is placed inconspicuously(sp) enough to blend in with enough status to be allowed some privileges.  Just an idea.  Messana probably is hiding as an AS but I wouldn't be surprised to see it be someone else.

[JakeBarnes]

 

I've published my thoughts on these 2 and other characters elsewere , but maybe this article will help you out a little in your search

 

the grump

 

He's directing people to an advertising site.  Spammer.

[grump]

Hey Jake    You see a website identified anywhere in my message? Should you manage to figure out where to go, you would have noted that there are some WOT

articles accessable to any one at no charge. In fact one contains a hint to how I found Mesaana.

 

Anyhow I will repeat again, there is some great misdirection at work about those 2 

 

The grump

[JakeBarnes]

 

I've published my thoughts on these 2 and other characters elsewere , but maybe this article will help you out a little in your search

 

the grump

 

This is directing people to your previous post of:

But on to my purpose in writing just now.  I ran across a site with some far out but semi reasonable thoughts in some of those things.  I pass it to you to look at or ignore.    [YARDSALE SITE REMOVED]     second page under the opinionized section.

 

The link is to an online yardsale.  So yes, you are spamming for an advertising site.