Graendal (Full Spoilers)

[Rand Skywalker]

I'm in the (apparently pretty lonely) camp that thinks Graendal is still alive and kicking.  This is more of a gut-feeling than anything.  She seems to have been set up/developed more than most if not all remaining forsaken, and to go out without a little more seems weird to me.

 

Also, she's such a schemer, but what does she do when Rand comes to Arad Doman to call?  Just sit there at her place in the mountains?  I think she must have had some contingency plans worked out, and how we get a Graendal POV in the prologue of Towers of Midnight.

[happypants]

Honestly, what is the point of building up 12 books worth of steaming praise about Graendal's scheming ability when Rand just rolls up as soon as he pleases and out-schemes the shit out of her? I give her more credit than that.

 

It actually isn't too hard to work out Rand's strategy here. He made it clear that he wasn't going to play her games, and so the question becomes if that's the case then why send the guy in the first place? It's not too much of a stretch from there to realize that he's just a balefire litmus test.

[Jemlin]

ding dong the witch is dead

 

*sings*

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

(I modified the post at the same moment a new one came, so I post the modification in a new post. )

 

 

Hmm, there's one other possibility. Rand also killed Graendal's servants. Had the servants not existed, would Rand's messenger ever have gotten an audience with Graendal? If not, and Graendal would have departed after the compulsion, should the compulsion also not be gone?

 

Additionally, how would he have gotten inside the fortress without the servants opening doors? And if the whole palace did not exist, how could he have found it?

 

The answer depends on which reality you're talking about.

 

The Preliminary Reality that existed prior to Rand loosing the balefire, when Doofusface Whatshisbucket knocks on Graendal's door, gets shown to the Great Lady, gets Compelled and returns to Rand to relate his implanted fairy tale and get Delved?  Or, the Final Reality which exists as a result of Rand loosing that balefire, where he ( Doofusface ) never really went there because the fortress had already been destroyed, even though he remembers doing so?

 

Because we get to see both sets of results, for us, both realities are true.  For the world of WoT, only the Final Reality is true.  Regardless what any of the characters' memories tell them.

[Graendals favourite]

Well then, it seems that if Graendal decided to leave after the compulsion, she is very much alive. It would make sense, since she has thought along the lines that she would abandon Arad Doman the instant Rand tried to confront her there. She would not fail to mask her departure by letting on that she was going to play Rand's game. There is really a limited amount of possible reasons Rand would have sent her the emissary.

[Mr Ares]

I'm certainly in the "Graendel's toast" group. Its not that i don't think its technically possible for her to be alive, i almost hope he is as she's an amazing character, but i just think that too many of the events are deliberately written in the way they are to make her death appear certain.

Well, if you wanted it to appear certain, and then show it wasn't, how would you write it? If her death was a red herring, it would be no surprise that she looked dead. That's the point of a red herring. On the whole, is she dead or alive debate, I think the safest option is, "probably dead, but it wouldn't surprise me if she lived."

 

Remember Semirhage being revealed before Rand's hand was lost? Massive shock, completely unexpected. I believe this is another shocking situation - boom, she's dead, didnt see that coming!

While RJ was a good one for unexpected plot twists, It's debatable whether Semi is the best example. After all, there were theories, backed up by evidence, to say that Anath was Semi before KoD was released, so some people certainly did see it coming. It all depends on how good you are at piecing together the clues.

 

I just feel that BS is pretty much confirming it for us in the text, Graendel's gone guys  :(

But if she wasn't gone, but he wanted you to think she was, he would appear to be pretty much confirming it. Same as if she was actually dead. There's enough of a way put to bring her back, let's say. Of course, there is always her alliance with Aran'gar to consider - why was that introduced if it wasn't to go anywhere? But where it is going might not need Graendal alive any more, as she could already have fulfilled her role. Problem is, there's not enough evidence to rule out either side, no absolute certainty of death, no certainty of her sneaking out, both are eminently possible.

[Mr Hindley]

Of course, there is always her alliance with Aran'gar to consider - why was that introduced if it wasn't to go anywhere?

 

I see Mr Ares just pipped me to the post on mentioning Aran'gar - who was curiously absent from tGS. Nynaeve did mention that the compulsion on Ramshalan was 'somehow different' (and why would BS put that in there if not to stir theories?), would Nynaeve be able to detect compulsion weaves laid by Aran'gar?

 

It's all clutching at straws of course, but it seems very odd to me that such a built-up character would get dismissed so readily, and very unlikely that she wouldn't have deep-reamed Ramshalan for all the info she could, sussed that Rand knew where she was - he hardly builds gateways for every emissary to every country house in the land - and what would Graendal do if she knew Rand knew where she was? Get ready to RUN.

[richnewton82]

.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well then, it seems that if Graendal decided to leave after the compulsion, she is very much alive. It would make sense, since she has thought along the lines that she would abandon Arad Doman the instant Rand tried to confront her there. She would not fail to mask her departure by letting on that she was going to play Rand's game. There is really a limited amount of possible reasons Rand would have sent her the emissary.

 

That's where the intricacies of balefire come into play.

 

Whomever laid that Compulsion on Doofusface had to have been destroyed by the balefire.  Why?

 

Because the fortress was destroyed back to before the Compulsion was laid.  It and everyone and everything in it ceased to exist before Doofusface got there.  That means that whoever laid that Compulsion died before they knew there was any reason to flee.

 

Whatever they may have done in the Preliminary Reality got undone by the Final Reality.  No matter what space your thread may occupy when balefire strikes a place, if your thread was within that place during the time period that the balefire is burning, it gets caught in the burnback.

 

Lay two threads on a surface.  Extend one straight ahead and take the other, entwine it with the first for some distance and then separate it and extend it at right angles to its initial direction.  Thread one is the place.  Thread two is the person.  For a time they existed together and then the person left the place.

 

Now, cut ( or burn ) the entwined threads at a point before the second separates from the first.  You sever both threads.  The action the person tried to take by leaving the place gets negated by the balefire.

 

Everyone who was within that fortress at the time that it ceased to exist was destroyed.  Everyone who entered that fortress and remained there until the time the balefire struck it was destroyed.  Only someone like Doofusface who would have entered  after the time it ceased to exist and left before the time it was struck would have been spared because the Final Reality was that the fortress no longer existed when they would have tried to enter it.

[1eejit]

I still think it's likely that some of Graendal's loose ends will be tied up in a ToM prologue appearance set (just?) prior to Rand destroying her Palace.

[jemron]

I still think it's likely that some of Graendal's loose ends will be tied up in a ToM prologue appearance set (just?) prior to Rand destroying her Palace.

 

Agreed.

[grolm]

Rand's assumptions about events (The meanings of Min's viewings primary among the examples) have proven to be inaccurate in the past, so his assumption about the compulsion being gone meaning Graendal is dead could be wrong, but the solid clues in the story point to extra crispy toast for Graendal.

 

I doubt she could tie off the compulsion weave so it dissipates without still causing massive brain damage given how heavy the weaves were. But Ny's comment that these weaves were different doesn make one wonder HOW they differed.

[cleantoe]

Yeah Graendal is definitely toast. I LOVED how Rand was mocking Ramshalan or whatever his name was. I was actually laughing at how patronizing he was being! lol

[Mr Ares]

Of course, there is always her alliance with Aran'gar to consider - why was that introduced if it wasn't to go anywhere?

 

I see Mr Ares just pipped me to the post on mentioning Aran'gar - who was curiously absent from tGS. Nynaeve did mention that the compulsion on Ramshalan was 'somehow different' (and why would BS put that in there if not to stir theories?), would Nynaeve be able to detect compulsion weaves laid by Aran'gar?

She shouldn't be able to sense weaves made of saidin, but there is another option - Delana was with Aran'gar when she fled the camp. Maybe Graendal had Delana set up at another palace to her own. Delana does the Compulsion, Delana gets punched in the face, Graendal was never there. Of course debate will continue until we get a toast comment or see her alive and well in ToM (which is precisely why BS hasn't given us a toast comment). But we still have nothing concrete.

[Graendals favourite]

Well then, it seems that if Graendal decided to leave after the compulsion, she is very much alive. It would make sense, since she has thought along the lines that she would abandon Arad Doman the instant Rand tried to confront her there. She would not fail to mask her departure by letting on that she was going to play Rand's game. There is really a limited amount of possible reasons Rand would have sent her the emissary.

 

That's where the intricacies of balefire come into play.

 

Whomever laid that Compulsion on Doofusface had to have been destroyed by the balefire.  Why?

 

Because the fortress was destroyed back to before the Compulsion was laid.  It and everyone and everything in it ceased to exist before Doofusface got there.  That means that whoever laid that Compulsion died before they knew there was any reason to flee.

 

Whatever they may have done in the Preliminary Reality got undone by the Final Reality.  No matter what space your thread may occupy when balefire strikes a place, if your thread was within that place during the time period that the balefire is burning, it gets caught in the burnback.

 

Lay two threads on a surface.  Extend one straight ahead and take the other, entwine it with the first for some distance and then separate it and extend it at right angles to its initial direction.  Thread one is the place.  Thread two is the person.  For a time they existed together and then the person left the place.

 

Now, cut ( or burn ) the entwined threads at a point before the second separates from the first.  You sever both threads.  The action the person tried to take by leaving the place gets negated by the balefire.

 

Everyone who was within that fortress at the time that it ceased to exist was destroyed.  Everyone who entered that fortress and remained there until the time the balefire struck it was destroyed.  Only someone like Doofusface who would have entered  after the time it ceased to exist and left before the time it was struck would have been spared because the Final Reality was that the fortress no longer existed when they would have tried to enter it.

I think Rand's fight with Rahvin shows otherwise. Had the above been correct, there would have been no balefire marks in the Caemlyn palace, as Rahvin would have died before Rand engaged him, and thus Rand would never have used balefire in the palace to kill Rahvin. Clearly, whatever Rahvin had done that hour or so before the balefire, no longer had happened, but what Rand did had. Rand's thread still lay as it had, he still needed to exit the World of Dreams for instance, though he would never have gone there without Rahvin's existance.

 

So the same is with Graendal. If she left before the balefire struck, her thread would be safe from harm elsewhere, though who knows how she could have lived through the palace disappearing: well, she might have survived a fall using the Power somehow. The point is, the palace was not balefired back then, but it simply disappeared-- actually, the people in it disappeared, since I don't know if objects have threads that can burn back in time-- oh but they do, as seen in Sammael's death, Sammael died of Mashadar because Rand destroyed the wall holding it back so that it had come on Sammael more quickly than before the balefire. Anyway, Graendal would be like Ramshalan, wherever did he wander with the palace not to be found, and whyever did he return so swiftly even though he never found it, despite the balefire, his thread had moved where it had moved, which was outside the palace.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think Rand's fight with Rahvin shows otherwise. Had the above been correct, there would have been no balefire marks in the Caemlyn palace, as Rahvin would have died before Rand engaged him, and thus Rand would never have used balefire in the palace to kill Rahvin. Clearly, whatever Rahvin had done that hour or so before the balefire, no longer had happened, but what Rand did had. Rand's thread still lay as it had, he still needed to exit the World of Dreams for instance, though he would never have gone there without Rahvin's existance.

 

So the same is with Graendal. If she left before the balefire struck, her thread would be safe from harm elsewhere, though who knows how she could have lived through the palace disappearing: well, she might have survived a fall using the Power somehow. The point is, the palace was not balefired back then, but it simply disappeared-- actually, the people in it disappeared, since I don't know if objects have threads that can burn back in time-- oh but they do, as seen in Sammael's death, Sammael died of Mashadar because Rand destroyed the wall holding it back so that it had come on Sammael more quickly than before the balefire. Anyway, Graendal would be like Ramshalan, wherever did he wander with the palace not to be found, and whyever did he return so swiftly even though he never found it, despite the balefire, his thread had moved where it had moved, which was outside the palace.

 

That goes back to how balefire works again.  It stands outside its own paradox.  Once it is cast nothing can undo it.  If B balefires C and then A balefires B, C is still dead no matter how far back A might burn B.

 

If Rahvin had been throwing fireballs at Rand, any damage he did would have been rewoven, but since it was balefire, the damage remains.

[Davian93]

I think Graendal survived.

[1eejit]

I think Rand's fight with Rahvin shows otherwise. Had the above been correct, there would have been no balefire marks in the Caemlyn palace, as Rahvin would have died before Rand engaged him, and thus Rand would never have used balefire in the palace to kill Rahvin. Clearly, whatever Rahvin had done that hour or so before the balefire, no longer had happened, but what Rand did had. Rand's thread still lay as it had, he still needed to exit the World of Dreams for instance, though he would never have gone there without Rahvin's existance.

 

So the same is with Graendal. If she left before the balefire struck, her thread would be safe from harm elsewhere, though who knows how she could have lived through the palace disappearing: well, she might have survived a fall using the Power somehow. The point is, the palace was not balefired back then, but it simply disappeared-- actually, the people in it disappeared, since I don't know if objects have threads that can burn back in time-- oh but they do, as seen in Sammael's death, Sammael died of Mashadar because Rand destroyed the wall holding it back so that it had come on Sammael more quickly than before the balefire. Anyway, Graendal would be like Ramshalan, wherever did he wander with the palace not to be found, and whyever did he return so swiftly even though he never found it, despite the balefire, his thread had moved where it had moved, which was outside the palace.

 

That goes back to how balefire works again.  It stands outside its own paradox.  Once it is cast nothing can undo it.  If B balefires C and then A balefires B, C is still dead no matter how far back A might burn B.

 

If Rahvin had been throwing fireballs at Rand, any damage he did would have been rewoven, but since it was balefire, the damage remains.

Rahvin had been using other weaves as well prior to using Balefire, which he only used once in the Palace prior to moving to T'A'R.

[Graendals favourite]

Ah yes, the balefire stays though nothing else does. That is good for Graendal as well, because it occurred to me otherwise perhaps the Compulsion should have stuck despite there being no palace or servants. However, Rand was still in Tel'aran'rhiod when he killed Rahvin. This means that the threads are where they are despite the balefire, but they were not affected in any way by anything that was balefired.

 

Cause Rand was using balefire too, as I recall, but he would not have been fighting Rahvin without Rahvin existing. Thus, perhaps Rand's damaging of palace was removed as well, aside from balefire slashes. So that the palace was not affected in ways that were because of Rand and Rahvin fighting, but Rand still went where he went and stayed there when Rahvin disappeared.

[1eejit]

But damage to the palace did remain, despite balefire only being used once prior to Rand and Rahvin moving to T'A'R.

[clu7ch]

Was it the CK on tremalking that exploded? Ah it doesnt matter. If I was the forsaken I'd have a group of spies circling the remaining CK and every time that big bulb lit up send messages to all of the forsaken (RUN RUN RUN)

[1eejit]

I think the male CK was the one near Cairhienin

[michaelacheson]

Yes, outside Cairhien. The one Rand had tried to channel through, way back in TGH, with Lanfear around. He had screamed out that Aiel doggerel about spitting in Sightblinder's eye on the last "DAY!", remember?

[albright]

Whatever they may have done in the Preliminary Reality got undone by the Final Reality.  No matter what space your thread may occupy when balefire strikes a place, if your thread was within that place during the time period that the balefire is burning, it gets caught in the burnback.

 

That is not correct. The Balefire must connect to the person or object in the present. Balefire does not travel back in time, only its effects seem to (the result of the pattern trying to compensate for the suddenly non-present threads)

 

The only option for her escape would have been if she traveled away right after sending Ramshalan out. As we understand it, she would probably have then suddenly appeared on the ground under where she had been in the palace. Nynaeve was in a boat that was balefired, then she appeared underwater, her recent actions erased/compensated by the pattern to try to match with the missing thread of the boat.

 

The compensation of the pattern could very feasibly work in different ways each time, plus the fact that graendal would have traveled could mean her thread was safe from the pattern's compensation (her thread was already moved to a new location via the OP, the pattern could have decided that was okay and let her stay in the new place)

[Bob T Dwarf]

All I can say here is that your idea is incorrect.  If you wish to discuss it further there is a thread for that:

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,49645.0.html