Graendal (Full Spoilers)

[grolm]

If Graendal is still alive (which I doubt) Rand will certainly beat himself up all over again into BadRand over it. If the Veins of Gold scene truly was reintegration and a healing (which I doubt. I dislike the end of that chapter). Rand's too far gone to heal himself completely, although he could recognize his madness (very likely given how self aware Ny realized he is) and start seeking help from the people who still care about him: Ny, Elayne, Min. I agree with the folks who say Graendal surviving would make the scene's aftermath more powerful, a test of Rand's sanity that even he recongnizes when he tells Ny to check Ramsham to see if the Compulsion is gone and his crime wasn't for nothing.

 

If Graendal is alive, there is zero evidence for it, just theorizing - some good ideas an author could use to justify the miraculous escape plot device - but based on what we know in the book, Graendal is vapor.

 

As for Moridin's instructions in the beginning to her, this wouldnt be the first time a Forsaken was given instructions at the start of a book and we see no evidence whatsoever onscreen that those commands were carried out. In LOC, Demandred is told by the DO himself at SG to "Let the Lord of Chaos rule." Nowhere in the book do we see Dem do ANYTHING, yet at the end of the novel he asks the DO something to the effect of how do you like my efforts?

 

Where in this novel do we see any of the attempts Graendal must have made to prevent Rand from securing Arad Doman. Are we supposed to infer certain events were caused by her efforts, cause I don't see them.

[grolm]

I think it most logical to assume that SH appeared to Elza offscreen and told her how and where to get Domination Band and that she was under Compulsion, but he was unable to remove it himself so he directed her to Semi to do so. There's no evidence Graendal was involved here, and she's always been loath to remotely risk being colocated with Rand, except for when she ransacked Sammaels leavings after Rand knocked him off.

 

That Graendal does nothing on screen after her instructions at the start of the book is another example of an element of the series I find annoying, although I love the books. If little plot snafus like this were tightened up, maybe the series wouldn't be 12 books long and continuing.

 

(Balefired by fans before being able to finish post)

 

[clu7ch]

If Graendal is still alive (which I doubt) Rand will certainly beat himself up all over again into BadRand over it. If the Veins of Gold scene truly was reintegration and a healing (which I doubt. I dislike the end of that chapter). Rand's too far gone to heal himself completely, although he could recognize his madness (very likely given how self aware Ny realized he is) and start seeking help from the people who still care about him: Ny, Elayne, Min. I agree with the folks who say Graendal surviving would make the scene's aftermath more powerful, a test of Rand's sanity that even he recongnizes when he tells Ny to check Ramsham to see if the Compulsion is gone and his crime wasn't for nothing.

 

If Graendal is alive, there is zero evidence for it, just theorizing - some good ideas an author could use to justify the miraculous escape plot device - but based on what we know in the book, Graendal is vapor.

 

As for Moridin's instructions in the beginning to her, this wouldnt be the first time a Forsaken was given instructions at the start of a book and we see no evidence whatsoever onscreen that those commands were carried out. In LOC, Demandred is told by the DO himself at SG to "Let the Lord of Chaos rule." Nowhere in the book do we see Dem do ANYTHING, yet at the end of the novel he asks the DO something to the effect of how do you like my efforts?

 

Where in this novel do we see any of the attempts Graendal must have made to prevent Rand from securing Arad Doman. Are we supposed to infer certain events were caused by her efforts, cause I don't see them.

 

I dont imagine we'll be seeing Badrand again, probably even during the last battle. He's got his mind right.

[1eejit]

I was reading up on Shara a bit ago, trying to calm some issues I have with the place.

 

It was said that Lady G kidnapped the rulers of Shara, but I doubt she walked through their walled cities and the countryside to their castle and got them....

 

Leading me to assume she made a gateway, but you have to know where you're going to do that, how does she know where their capital is?? We do not know whether or not the Entity of Shara existed pre breaking, But it's safe to assume the land did. Did she pick a spot and get lucky? Compel someone to disclose the information?? We no little about shara, but this seems odd.

T'A'R I imagine.

[clu7ch]

Wow, I'm sleepy (: I didn't even think of that, thanks bud

[richnewton82]

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[Lord_of_the_Morning]

That comic is totally true, except it's spelled Mr. Ares and there is no Mrs. Ares at the top of the stairs.

 

Oh and, um.  Graendal is dead.

[clu7ch]

and there's only 10 books. fail sir. fail.

[jemron]

 

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5047/46599460.jpg

 

Sorry, I could not help myself.

 

Laughed out loud.  (No I'm not going to abbreviate it.)

[Graendals favourite]

Hmm, I will try to attack the Forsaken meeting. So Graendal had been commanded to cause Rand anguish, and Graendal had departed to scheme. It would be ridiculous if during the whole of Gathering Storm she had not put these schemes into motion. There is no sign that she did anything in Arad Doman during that time. Perhaps she understood, better than Rand, that Rand would fail in pacifying Arad Doman, that Arad Doman was a dead country. Graendal was never a governing Forsaken, and obviously she did not seek to rule Arad Doman, she cast it into chaos and ruined the country even before she caused the Seanchan to attack it, while living comfortably in her palace. Also, she never intended to face Rand, unless possibly under disguise, so she would not necessarily mind so much if Rand did gain hold of what was left of Arad Doman.

 

In an earlier book, when Sammael threatened to disclose her whereabouts to Rand, Graendal considered she might have to move and abandon her games there, and perhaps even some of her larger ones as well. So, there are larger games Graendal has been playing. It seems her game in Arad Doman was to secure a cozy stronghold in an country that seemed uninviting to others and which would not be able to resist the Shadow. I would guess there are people around Randland, who would have been under her control, and what commands she would have given them at Moridin's orders remains to be seen:

 

The BWB says:

Before the war, not only much of the general unrest but a number of highly destructive riots can be laid at her feet, and possibly the strangely harmful behaviour of several people in high office as well as a number of key people's suicides.

While not a military commander in the field during the war, Graendal apparently was responsible for a number of significant gains and for a variety of successful subversion efforts. One source says: "Graendal conquered territories as surely as any of the Shadow's generals, but her battlegrounds were her enemies minds."

 

The question is, what has Graendal prepared outside Arad Doman that might cause nations to fall or the like come Tarmon Gai'don, that she might have set into motion now, with the war extremely near and her needing to hurt Rand deeply. Masema could have been anyone's. Weiramon is almost too suspect. Well, pretty much anyone could have been in danger. Noal I think has orders to stay close to Mat, he always seems to want to be near, but perhaps he will die in the Tower of Ghenjei. Well, it seems to me Graendal might have set up surprises in Tear, Cairhien, Andor and the Borderlands at least. (I suspect Demandred is in Murandy.)

[clu7ch]

but if half the people on this forum are right, rand's superbalefirekamehamehaspiritbombnuke blew graendal so far back in the pattern that this thread shouldn't exist at all d:

[Graendals favourite]

Well, as far as I am concerned, it did, and I am no longer held. However, I read someone BS saying that it really did not go so far back. The blast was huge, but I think (not quoting or any such) it might still have erased only days from Graendal's life.

[clu7ch]

If even that much

[CUBAREY]

That comic is totally true, except it's spelled Mr. Ares and there is no Mrs. Ares at the top of the stairs.

 

First do not mock other posters, it is not allowed and may lead to you being banned.

 

Second their is not period (.) in Mr Ares as he is British.

[Graendals favourite]

Yes, Graendal was present at the meeting so that she could hear where not to cause disturbance! She was not to wreak havoc at the Tower, or amongst Demandred's armies. Anywhere else would do, and she should do it as painfully to Rand as she could, and naturally she would prefer to have it happen outside Arad Doman so that Rand would stop bothering her there.

[1eejit]

I expect we'll see a pre-Balebomb Graendal PoV in the ToM prologue, tie up any loose ends that way. Brandon may not want to say she's toast so more people are like "amagad wtf?!" before it's made clear when the timing of the PoV is.

[dapianoplay3r]

Graendal is dead. There is almost no doubt about it. I wish she wasn't she was my fav forsaken but oh well. If she did come back and turn Rand all psyco again it would be awesome but RJ and now BS don't like to repeat things. I still liked the dark Rand

[Mr Ares]

Leading me to assume she made a gateway, but you have to know where you're going to do that, how does she know where their capital is??

You have to know your start point for Traveling. End point is for skimming.

 

I think it most logical to assume that SH appeared to Elza offscreen and told her how and where to get Domination Band and that she was under Compulsion, but he was unable to remove it himself so he directed her to Semi to do so.

Brandon has told us that SH took Elza and did things to her (not all of which were present), and told her how to get past Cadsuane's wards. I'd say that makes it all the more likely that SH discovered it and told her. As in, almost certain. As for how it could do it, we don't know the limits of SH's powers.

 

I don't use any internet abbreviations for laughter, there are twelve books in the series yet only ten by the computer, I have breakfast before I post (lunch would have been a better choice), and one doesn't have "cones and scrumpets" for breakfast anyway, you missed all of my distinguishing physical features, and my mother is dead. Brits also don't use "mom", it should be mum, mam in some parts of the country, perhaps mater for a more upper class feel, and you misspelled and mispunctuated my name. All in all, a pretty poor effort. *

[richnewton82]

.

[Graendals favourite]

As far as I see it, the only way Graendal could be alive requires certain things to have happened. First of all, probably Bair would have to be a Darkfriend(Bair saw where Cadsuane's stash was). (I have half suspected one of the Aiel Dreamwalkers since Seane was killed, and afterwards I seem to recall some information might have been given to the shadow through one of them.) There was another of the Black Ajah following Rand, but I do not recall if she was with him in Arad Doman. Anyway, Graendal would have had to learn of what happened to Semirhage. If she could suspect what happened, she could have reckoned on Rand's possible change of character. The second thing would be, that she would have had to be able to remove the Domani lord's compulsion at the moment of the balefire, the only moment when Nynaeve would not have noticed the channelling. It might be plausible she could have reckoned with an attack, if she knew about Semirhage, but I don't know if it would have been possible to have the compulsion dissolve at the right moment.

[Basic]

I'm certainly in the "Graendel's toast" group. Its not that i don't think its technically possible for her to be alive, i almost hope he is as she's an amazing character, but i just think that too many of the events are deliberately written in the way they are to make her death appear certain.

 

The compulsion being removed: of course someone else could have possibly done it, but the weaves were so like Graendel's that its almost as if BS is just telling us outright that it was her.

 

The unexpectedness of it: many people say "Graendel has more to do" due to being taken aside by Moridin. But its always been in RJ's style to surprise and shock the reader. Remember Semirhage being revealed before Rand's hand was lost? Massive shock, completely unexpected. I believe this is another shocking situation - boom, she's dead, didnt see that coming!

 

I just feel that BS is pretty much confirming it for us in the text, Graendel's gone guys  :(

 

 

[Graendals favourite]

I agree. However, I think whatever Graendal did after the tea party, she did outside Arad Doman. So the fruits of her work will be seen in one or both next books.

 

[wvlr2]

As far as I see it, the only way Graendal could be alive requires certain things to have happened. First of all, probably Bair would have to be a Darkfriend(Bair saw where Cadsuane's stash was). (I have half suspected one of the Aiel Dreamwalkers since Seane was killed, and afterwards I seem to recall some information might have been given to the shadow through one of them.) There was another of the Black Ajah following Rand, but I do not recall if she was with him in Arad Doman. Anyway, Graendal would have had to learn of what happened to Semirhage. If she could suspect what happened, she could have reckoned on Rand's possible change of character. The second thing would be, that she would have had to be able to remove the Domani lord's compulsion at the moment of the balefire, the only moment when Nynaeve would not have noticed the channelling. It might be plausible she could have reckoned with an attack, if she knew about Semirhage, but I don't know if it would have been possible to have the compulsion dissolve at the right moment.

 

 

While I agree that she is likely dead - I do see at least a few ways that she could have done it.

 

There is another BA with rand - so she could easily know that he escaped and killed Semi.   

 

The three ways that I can think of that Grendal might have accomplished the same thing.

 

One is by having one of her "pets from Shara who could channel" implement the Compulsion on the Idiot.    Then Grendal leaves via gateway and when the "pet" is killed - the Compulsion disappears.    I like this one the best because it explains the best, why the Compulsion was different.

 

The second choice is for Grendal to "link" with the Shara pet prior to putting Compulsion on the Idiot, then she leaves again via gateway and again when the "pet" is killed -  since the "pet' was part of a circle that made the Compulsion - then the Compulsion disappears.    Also if the "pet" was a man it would explain why the weaves looked different to Ny.    She could not see the male part.

 

The third and less likely is for Grendal to use her "ring" booster to do the Compulsion and she leaves the ring at the location.    When the ring is destroyed - the Compulsion disappears.    This is less likely because I don't think that Grendal would give up her ring if she could find another way.

 

 

[Graendals favourite]

(I modified the post at the same moment a new one came, so I post the modification in a new post. )

 

 

Hmm, there's one other possibility. Rand also killed Graendal's servants. Had the servants not existed, would Rand's messenger ever have gotten an audience with Graendal? If not, and Graendal would have departed after the compulsion, should the compulsion also not be gone?

 

Additionally, how would he have gotten inside the fortress without the servants opening doors? And if the whole palace did not exist, how could he have found it?

[analyticalkeys]

(I modified the post at the same moment a new one came, so I post the modification in a new post. )

 

 

Hmm, there's one other possibility. Rand also killed Graendal's servants. Had the servants not existed, would Rand's messenger ever have gotten an audience with Graendal? If not, and Graendal would have departed after the compulsion, should the compulsion also not be gone?

 

Additionally, how would he have gotten inside the fortress without the servants opening doors? And if the whole palace did not exist, how could he have found it?

 

You know, this is a good point, but I wonder how much time actually passed between when the messenger entered the palace and when Rand balefired it back to Hell.