Graendal (Full Spoilers)

[Robo-Hillbilly]

I also agree Graendal is dead, she is the last of the female forsaken free to attack Rand at this point in the story. B.S. needed to kill her while Rand was Darth Rand because of the fear of hurting women. As others have mentioned, Graendal's compulsion leaves only mindless husks when she is through. Ram-dude did not seem mindless when the palace was blasted. Good enough proof for me Graendal is dead.

 

Graendal will show up at some point in the next book, but most likely prior in timeline to the palace nuke.

 

Cyndane and Mogy are soul locked to Mordrin, and Morraine and Nynaeve have claim to their final deaths. Messanna is Egwene's final test of power. It seems to make sense Semi and Graendal would be the forsaken taken out in this book during Rand's decent into darkness. Now that Darth Rand has embraced his inner child, he would have difficulty blasting either.

 

Rand will take on Mordrin, Mat will blast Demandred with a dragon full of grapeshot and Perrin will slay Slayer. Leaving Fain to take on the DO while Rand seals them both up.  ;D

 

 

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[Razor]

Agree Grendel is dead.  Rand's descent and darkness, agree her escape would cheapen it.  Agree that the end is nearing so some forsaken have to die.  I believe we will see her in the Perin timeline that is lagging behind Rand and we will see her exit off stage to the big bad Rand Balefire.

 

However, now that Rand is integrated, he is more healthy and will be able to kill women if necessary, ie a forsaken because he realizes he now has the chance to get it right for his loves.

[sheikh chilli]

i think we will have Greandal's POV as she gets balefired. One sec she's like wow a messenger and the next whoosh!

 

Sad though cause i had high hopes for her. Shame she's dead and moggy is still alive. None of the remaining forsaken except for demy and mory are interesting anymore. All the good ones are dead

[Firebird]

Not only does it make sense, that is one of the best summations of a great point that I have seen on this board. I agree 100%.

 

I can understand that Graendal fans would be dissapointed, but I am not. The fights that Rand has had with the Forsaken have varied from very cool, to kind of cookie cutter in hindsight(poor Be'lal....) and considering that they keep getting spun back out by the DO(one having already redied....) it was kind of nice to see a scene like this that didn't put the emphasis on "Rand goes to battle another mighty Forsaken!". It was a brilliant, if absolutely heartless, move by Rand, and the perfect plan to deal with Graendal, but ultimately the scene wasn't even really about her, and that's one reason it's so powerful. Get it? Rand's descent is so important, even to the author, that the death of one of the Forsaken is secondary to it. And yes, at that point, Graendal was probably far less dangerous to the Light then Rand's own inner struggle.

 

Like I said, I can't understand why Graendal fans would be dissapointed, but I thought it was an amazing scene for all the reasons you listed Firebird. It definately would cheapen it to have Graendal show up in the next book. Kind of like...oh, Rand didn't actually channel the True Power. It was the Bestest Power, and it's made of gumdrops and jellybeans, so no worries.

Thank you! You understand exactly what I was trying to get across and your comment that the scene wasn't even about Graendal is bang on. I couldn't have put it better myself  :)

 

I think everyone is just disappointed that their favourite Forsaken died like this, but it's a powerful scene and it actually shows a great deal of respect for Graendal. I think if, for instance, it were Mesaana (rather than Graendal) who got balefired like this, no-one would be complaining or doubting her death, as we probably feel less engaged with Mesaana than we do with Graendal.

[ohaitharguiz]

In no way is it completely impossible, but there is 0 evidence for her being alive.

[michaelacheson]

There are several reasons why I believe Graendal's kicked the bucket: -

 

1. First, we need to realise that this is a war, and in wars, things don't get taken care of neatly. Many times, the drama just isn't there. The randomness of wars, if it can be called that, is one major part of why people who've actually been through them lose the ability to romanticise about them. This can be tied in with Rand's darkening character at this point in the timeline: the way he dispels all order (and order is the backbone of the Pattern: remember Herid Fel's notes?) and does this horrendous thing leaves the reader very disturbed indeed.

 

2. We have all followed WOT theorising over the years, and the point that has come up repeatedly is how much more useful the Dragon would be to the DO as the DO's puppet than the Forsaken: unlike the Forsaken, the Pattern makes the Dragon one of its centre-points, and if it could be arranged such that the Dragon who 'wins' is bang in the DO's mold of the ruler of the world of the Wheel, then it would be infinitely more instrumental than having Forsaken. Semirhage was used as fodder. WHY NOT Graendal? I'm betting the DO or Moridin sounded Graendal's personality very cunningly, and then utilised her. First she causes disorder in her principilaty, then becomes the incentive for much more terrible damage to the Pattern and to its Champion. BY its champion. Really, it's a win-win for the DO. Would Rand have done this for anyone short of one of the most dangerous Forsaken?

 

3. From Verin's observations, and from our own over the ways the seemingly Shadow-Championing Forsaken fail their image over the time, we know that more than cunning and skilled, they are SELFISH. From the Forsaken's POVs, it is clear that they would sabotage one another and thus, indirectly, they could end up sabotaging the DO's plans. If an instrument as powerful as the Dragon Reborn is in the DO's hands, he would be DESIROUS of eliminating his less capable tools.

 

4. So Graendal knows her way around the human mind and personalities! But here again we must remember Cadsuane's lesson: she (Graendal) is only HUMAN, like the rest of us. Her abilities may be superlative, but yet SHE HAS NEVER MET RAND. The best shrink in the world couldn't psychoanalyse you from scanty, likely distorted reports received from your enemies, or those who barely know you. And that's assuming that she got any reports at all of Rand al'Thor's personal behaviour. Again, even if she did, she'd know of a less dark Rand, not this city-Balefiring monstrosity.

 

5. The thing folks have already said about her being alive cheapening Rand's descent into blackness applies strongly to my POV also. Too, I'd humbly submit that this time Rand/LTT planned and executed like a master strategist.

 

 

 

Oh, no, my friends. She's toast alright.

[Graendals favourite]

I think Graendal had been observing Rand closely enough from fairly early on, possibly before but not later than the Lanfear-Graendal-Sammael-Rahvin plot. In LoC for instance, talking to Sammael, she understood how it was important that Sammael had killed Maidens earlier in the war in Cairhien (And she knew he had). I think she had understood Rand down pretty well. However, all the more, she would never have anticipated the post-Semirhage Rand.

[randfandom]

I feel that if Graendal should pop up again in the next book blowing a party whistle and shouting "Nah nah nah I'm not dead", it cheapens the whole tone of the previous book. We watched Rand lose his mind in TGS, then find it again at the end. He basically went to hell and back. And part of that journey involved the annihilation of Graendal. And if she hasn't been annihilated, somehow Rand's mental sacrifices will seem less real. I understand that HE believes she's dead, but for me, as a reader, I feel the impact of Rand's descent into blackness and Graendal's "death" scene are lessened if she's still alive.

 

Does this make sense to anyone?

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

One thing worth mentioning is how, along with his emotional turmoil, this book also displays Rand's evolution into a brilliant tactician and military and political leader in his own right, ala pre-madness LTT. We saw glimpses of it before, but the destruction of Graendal was such a stroke of genius I would never have expected from the old Rand. Other plots he executed brilliantly was placing Ituralde away from his homeland, seeing into the Borderlanders' plot right away, etc.

 

The only thing that prevented Rand from truly becoming The Leader of the age was his insantity and inhumanity, and his tyrant like attitude towards others. Assuming that the scene in Dragonmount has truly transformed him, and with hopefully a united White Tower willing to work with him, we will perhaps finally see him attain his rightful place as leader, and one who people will follow for love not just fear.

[Dakota]

Aside from the alive/dead question, I have another thought on Graendal and her doings in this book that I mentioned in another thread, but will repeat here since it's a more appropriate place.

 

I think that Graendal was behind Semirhage being freed and given the male a'dam.

 

1) When Elza freed Semi, she had been told to tell Semi that she was under Compulsion.  Very few people would know enough about Compulsion to recognize the weave for what it was, even the crude version that Verin put on her.  Most of the Black Ajah probably wouldn't recognize it for what it is, and if they did, they'd still probably want to be the one to free Semi themselves, both for the credit and just to be the other one controlling the DR.  Nynaeve and a few of the other "good girls" would be the only other ones likely to recognize the weaves for Compulsion, and it's safe to say that none of the good girls were the ones who did it.  So that leaves pretty much a Forsaken who would know what it was.  Who'se the queen of Compulsion?  Graendal.

 

2) At the Forsaken Gathering at the beginning of the book, Moridin specifically told Mesaana and Demandred that they weren't to free Semi, but he didn't really specify that to Graendal as well.  What he did tell her was to make Rand know pain and despair and suffering.  Now, Graendal is an expert psychologist, and she knows Semi well enough, both personally and by reputation, to know -exactly- what Semi would do to Rand as soon as he was freed.  And if Graendal could claim responsibility for freeing Semi, she could clain responsibility for the pain and suffering that Semi would cause Rand by having him kill Min.  And if the worst did happen and the attempt failed, she'd be back in her fortress, leaving Semi and Elza to take the brunt of the retribution from her captors, and leaving Demandred and Mesaana to take the brunt of the retribution from Moridin.

 

3) Again, at the Forsaken gathering.  This is, if I recall correctly, the last time that we see Graendal before she is killed.  What really would be the point of the author including this blurb if nothing was to come of it.  Sort of a Chekhov's Gun sort of thing, there really wouldn't be any point in including that scene if Graendal didn't do -something- to make good of it before she died.

 

 

The only real X factor is how she would have got the male a'dam to give to Elza.  But she knew that Semi had it, and that the good AS would have taken it from her after her capture.  A simple factor of having Elza tell her where it was and being pointed to Cadsuane's room.  I'm sure that someone as powerful as her wouldn't have found it that difficult to get around Cadsuane's weaves.

 

 

As for the Dead or Alive question, I think the possibility exists that she's alive, as I think that Granedal of all people would be able to make the weaves of her own compulsion vanish.  However, I myself think she is dead for two already mentioned reasons.  A), it's essentially the last book, no real point in keeping the forsaken alive at the beginning just to kill them off again at the end.  B), it shows just how much everything's building towards the climax when major characters die "off screen".

[randfandom]

I think that Graendal was behind Semirhage being freed and given the male a'dam.

 

While I suspect she was involved in hatching the plot and selling it to Moridin, she could not be part of the execution, as she has no control over Shaidar Haran that we know of, and he was the one who freed Semirhage.

[Dakota]

I think that Graendal was behind Semirhage being freed and given the male a'dam.

 

While I suspect she was involved in hatching the plot and selling it to Moridin, she could not be part of the execution, as she has no control over Shaidar Haran that we know of, and he was the one who freed Semirhage.

 

I could be mistaken, but I didn't think he was the one who freed her.  I'd have to go back and re-read the applicable chapters, but I thought that SH just paid her a visit to rub it in and tell her that she deserved it, and that it was an entirely seperate chapter/visit where she was actually freed by Elza.

[analyticalkeys]

1) When Elza freed Semi, she had been told to tell Semi that she was under Compulsion.  Very few people would know enough about Compulsion to recognize the weave for what it was, even the crude version that Verin put on her.  Most of the Black Ajah probably wouldn't recognize it for what it is, and if they did, they'd still probably want to be the one to free Semi themselves, both for the credit and just to be the other one controlling the DR.  Nynaeve and a few of the other "good girls" would be the only other ones likely to recognize the weaves for Compulsion, and it's safe to say that none of the good girls were the ones who did it.  So that leaves pretty much a Forsaken who would know what it was.  Who'se the queen of Compulsion?  Graendal.

 

BS confirmed that the compulsion was Verin's.

[Dakota]

1) When Elza freed Semi, she had been told to tell Semi that she was under Compulsion.  Very few people would know enough about Compulsion to recognize the weave for what it was, even the crude version that Verin put on her.  Most of the Black Ajah probably wouldn't recognize it for what it is, and if they did, they'd still probably want to be the one to free Semi themselves, both for the credit and just to be the other one controlling the DR.  Nynaeve and a few of the other "good girls" would be the only other ones likely to recognize the weaves for Compulsion, and it's safe to say that none of the good girls were the ones who did it.  So that leaves pretty much a Forsaken who would know what it was.  Who'se the queen of Compulsion?  Graendal.

 

BS confirmed that the compulsion was Verin's.

 

I don't think anyone doubted that it was Verin's.  I'm just saying that Graendal is one of the few who would recognize that it -is- compulsion.  Random Black Ajah #27 might see the weaves, but not know enough what they are to tell Elza "You're under Compulsion"

[richnewton82]

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[Dakota]

I think that Graendal was behind Semirhage being freed and given the male a'dam.

 

While I suspect she was involved in hatching the plot and selling it to Moridin, she could not be part of the execution, as she has no control over Shaidar Haran that we know of, and he was the one who freed Semirhage.

 

I could be mistaken, but I didn't think he was the one who freed her.  I'd have to go back and re-read the applicable chapters, but I thought that SH just paid her a visit to rub it in and tell her that she deserved it, and that it was an entirely seperate chapter/visit where she was actually freed by Elza.

 

no it was SH who freed her. Furthermore, Elza says to remove the compulsion from her mind as part of said compulsion. the way compulsion can work is that if a certain event occurs, the victim suddenly does certain things. In this case, Elza's compulsion had her tell Semmi that there was compulsion in her mind to be removed.

 

Fair enough on the SH bit.

 

But as for the compulsion bit, why would Verin include that order in the compulsion?  Why would Verin tell her "If XYZ circumstances occur, tell someone you're under compulsion and to remove it"?  What would those circumstances be, what happened that would make Elza pick this moment to do it and not beforehand?

 

Just seems simpler for Graendal and/or SH to just tell her, "Give this to Semirhage, and tell her you're being compelled and that she needs to remove it.

[MatrixM]

Yeah, it was Shaidar all the way. Verin didn't want her compulsion removed, it helped Rand.

[Swigaro]

If Grendal was there to free Semi, and recognize that Elza was under compulsion, why wouldn't she have just removed it herself? 

[Mr Ares]

I think that Graendal was behind Semirhage being freed and given the male a'dam.

There is nothing at all to indicate that.

 

1) When Elza freed Semi, she had been told to tell Semi that she was under Compulsion.

Verin put that Compulsion on her. Confirmed by BS. Why drag Graendal into it? SH told her she was under Compulsion.

 

3) Again, at the Forsaken gathering. This is, if I recall correctly, the last time that we see Graendal before she is killed. What really would be the point of the author including this blurb if nothing was to come of it. Sort of a Chekhov's Gun sort of thing, there really wouldn't be any point in including that scene if Graendal didn't do -something- to make good of it before she died.

That, I agree with, but not that it hints towards her inclusion in freeing Semi. That just makes no sense. Also, bear in mind her alliance with Aran'gar, which was mentioned in this book, and Aran'gar was aiming for in KoD. Presumably that was introduced for a reason.

 

The only real X factor is how she would have got the male a'dam to give to Elza.

She didn't. Elza did that herself, with knowledge from SH. Confirmed by BS.

 

Furthermore, Elza says to remove the compulsion from her mind as part of said compulsion. the way compulsion can work is that if a certain event occurs, the victim suddenly does certain things. In this case, Elza's compulsion had her tell Semmi that there was compulsion in her mind to be removed.

That makes no sense, at all. Oh, I agree that it's possible to use Compulsion like that, just non-sensical.

 

If Grendal was there to free Semi, and recognize that Elza was under compulsion, why wouldn't she have just removed it herself?

Graendal's inclusion in this just makes no sense at all, on any level.

 

As for the alive or dead argument, it can be summed up like this:

She has to be dead, she must be, it is impossible for her to be alive!

She might not be dead.

[Swigaro]

 

If Grendal was there to free Semi, and recognize that Elza was under compulsion, why wouldn't she have just removed it herself?

Graendal's inclusion in this just makes no sense at all, on any level.

 

As for the alive or dead argument, it can be summed up like this:

She has to be dead, she must be, it is impossible for her to be alive!

She might not be dead.

 

Couldn't agree more, on both points.  Well said.

[richnewton82]

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[Mr Ares]

BS confirmed that the Compulsion was that placed by Verin. It was placed to make her help Rand, which is why it had to be removed. Her asking for the Compulsion to be removed is your own crackpot theory, and has nothing to do with reality. And we don't know the limits of SH's powers.

[richnewton82]

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[clu7ch]

IF IF IF IF IF I remember correctly it was dusk or close to it when Lady G 'met her end'

 

I dunno about you, but I'd notice a gigantic white sun out on the hilltop...

Rand did his pity-diddy bit for a few seconds with the ball of un-released balefire floating there. It wouldn't take a male channeler to notice, honestly.

 

She could be alive

 

But I like to think otherwise, I just point things out as they come.

[Mr Ares]

How did it help him?

Well, Elza killed Osan'gar, and fought to keep Rand alive. Seems pretty helpful to me.

How does giving a Semmi a message as she's about to take him to the DO help him?

That had nothing to do with the Compulsion, except in your mind.

How would SH know?

We don't know the limits of his powers.

 

Crackpot theory my ass.

But that's exactly what it is. While Compelling someone to deliver a message in that way is perfectly possilbe, it is not at all what happened here. Elza asked for the Compulsion to be removed because she knew she was under Compulsion (having just been told), it was not an instruction forced by the Compulsion itself.

I'm saying it makes equally little sense, giving everything we know about verin, compulsion, and SH for any of it to have happened that way.

What doesn't make sense about it? Verin didn't want her Compulsion removed, but she had nothing to do with its removal. The message didn't come from the Compulsion. There is no reason at all to think that it did, so why you persist with this is mystifying.

 

you love being a bully on the internet or what?

I'm not bullying anyone. If this is your idea of bullying, then you've really never experienced it. I don't appreciate being called a bully, so kindly don't do it again.

[clu7ch]

I was reading up on Shara a bit ago, trying to calm some issues I have with the place.

 

It was said that Lady G kidnapped the rulers of Shara, but I doubt she walked through their walled cities and the countryside to their castle and got them....

 

Leading me to assume she made a gateway, but you have to know where you're going to do that, how does she know where their capital is?? We do not know whether or not the Entity of Shara existed pre breaking, But it's safe to assume the land did. Did she pick a spot and get lucky? Compel someone to disclose the information?? We no little about shara, but this seems odd.