Demandred (Full Spoilers).

[Crael123]

omg.TAIM. IS. NOOOOT. DEMANDRED. OKAY?!

[Nethran Thaimal]

Like I said, anyone who still believes, like me, won't be swayed by those kinds of posts.  Not even if you seperate every word with a period and type in all caps.

[Nuts]

My God! Stop the Taim = Demandred chatter.

 

The WH scene makes this impossible. It also shows that Demandred is unfamiliar with Ashaman in general.

 

In the WH scene we got to here Demandred in the 'first person' so what we hear is from the horses mouth so to speak.

 

Read the scene - makes it impossible it also shows that Demandreds character MUST not have been around Rand on a permanent basis otherwise he would have recognised Flinn.

[Vulgir]

Like I said, anyone who still believes, like me, won't be swayed by those kinds of posts.  Not even if you seperate every word with a period and type in all caps.

 

Heres the Simple Answer

 

[Impressive Bosom]

omg.TAIM. IS. NOOOOT. DEMANDRED. OKAY?!

 

Right.

 

But he should have been.

 

*sniff*

[b9anders]

omg.TAIM. IS. NOOOOT. DEMANDRED. OKAY?!

 

zomg! like totally wtf.

[morkhon]

omg.TAIM. IS. NOOOOT. DEMANDRED. OKAY?!

He was, but RJ got annoyed at how fast people figured it out and changed it.

[lumber]

I also feel that the similarities are too many to be disregarded easily, but of course the Demandred POV and the RJ quotes are heavy things against it.

 

Could there be a way for Demandred to both be, and not be, Taim? We haven't really seen anything like this in the series but could there be a situation where the soul/mind/whatever of Demandred is copied into Taim to replace him? We could then get the similarities seen between their behaviours but the real Demandred could still not know about the Ashaman.

 

[BladeDancer]

Demandred had a battle with Asha'Man Flinn in WH CH35. His POV made it clear he could see Flinn but described him as just an old man and he was surprised that Flinn was channelling at him.

 

In LOC Taim spent at least an entire week training Flinn face to face. They lived in the same farmhouse encampment and Flinn was the first man Taim tested for channelling. Flinn passed the test. There is zero chance that Taim would not recognise Flinn unless Taim has brain damage. Taim cannot be Demandred unless Demandred has a split personality. There has been no indication of this so therefore Taim cannot be Demandred.

 

The only way Taim could be Demandred would be if Demandred replaced Taim after Taim had set up the Black Tower and trained Flinn. Again, there are zero indicators that this has occurred.

[Impressive Bosom]

Demandred had a battle with Asha'Man Flinn in WH CH35. His POV made it clear he could see Flinn but described him as just an old man and he was surprised that Flinn was channelling at him.

 

In LOC Taim spent at least an entire week training Flinn face to face. They lived in the same farmhouse encampment and Flinn was the first man Taim tested for channelling. Flinn passed the test. There is zero chance that Taim would not recognise Flinn unless Taim has brain damage. Taim cannot be Demandred unless Demandred has a split personality. There has been no indication of this so therefore Taim cannot be Demandred.

 

The only way Taim could be Demandred would be if Demandred replaced Taim after Taim had set up the Black Tower and trained Flinn. Again, there are zero indicators that this has occurred.

 

Granting your points... can you explain away all of the instances that point TOWARDS Taim being Demandred? If he is so clearly not, then surely there must be explanations for all of the conflicting clues we've been given...

[Majsju]

Demandred had a battle with Asha'Man Flinn in WH CH35. His POV made it clear he could see Flinn but described him as just an old man and he was surprised that Flinn was channelling at him.

 

In LOC Taim spent at least an entire week training Flinn face to face. They lived in the same farmhouse encampment and Flinn was the first man Taim tested for channelling. Flinn passed the test. There is zero chance that Taim would not recognise Flinn unless Taim has brain damage. Taim cannot be Demandred unless Demandred has a split personality. There has been no indication of this so therefore Taim cannot be Demandred.

 

The only way Taim could be Demandred would be if Demandred replaced Taim after Taim had set up the Black Tower and trained Flinn. Again, there are zero indicators that this has occurred.

 

Granting your points... can you explain away all of the instances that point TOWARDS Taim being Demandred? If he is so clearly not, then surely there must be explanations for all of the conflicting clues we've been given...

 

And these instances would be Taims big nose, and some odd remark about the Aiel...

 

That is so vague it is not even circumstacial "evidence". Especially with RJ several times flat out debunking the theory.

 

 

[Sevynwarr]

I scanned through the posts but didn't read them all, so forgive me if this has already been stated.

 

While I don't know who Demandred is posing as, and where, I do know it's likely not the only thing he has been doing if he has, indeed been the one doing it.

 

In the prologue of TGS in Masema's PoV you see that he's been visited in his dreams by the dragon reborn and that it was this vision that told him to kill perrin, right after (near enough) moridin ordered the forsaken to have perrin and mat killed.  If you read back you can find masema making references to dreams as early as TDR.  He's obviously been taking orders from someone in his dreams that has been posing as the dragon reborn this whole time.  What better way for Demandred to get some payback on LTT than to befoul his name with the attrocities that the prophet and his people have been committing?  Look at all of the chaos that the prophet has caused, and he has drawn away and tainted men that might have otherwise supported Rand.  Demandred did something that pleased the DO in LOC, It's been a while, but wasn't the prophet causing quite a bit of chaos in that book?  Sammael told Graendal that the mess down south (of Arad Doman) had Demandred written all over it.  Ghealdan is south of Arad Doman.

 

I'm pretty sure that Demandred has been the one behind the prophet, if it's not the only thing he has been doing throughout the series.

 

 

P.S. am I the only one in the entire world who is absolutely certain that Mazrim Taim is Moridin?  I mean, come on, the end of KOD makes it so OBVIOUS.  Red and black floor tiles, fist with lightning bolts, "let the lord of chaos rule"?  Any of that ringing a bell here?

[Nuts]

"Granting your points... can you explain away all of the instances that point TOWARDS Taim being Demandred? If he is so clearly not, then surely there must be explanations for all of the conflicting clues we've been given..."

 

Impressive Bosum - I am afraid that any circumstantial that you provide is rendered void by such 'first person' narrative that happened in 'Winter's Heart'. It is the same in any good detective story. For instance, whenever a Christie character has a 'POV' I place emphasis on what they 'directly' think.

 

As I stated before - Demandred was not familiar with Flinn or Ashaman in general. Very strange. Makes one wonder where Demandred must be because if he spent any time, in his alter ego, around Rand then he could not but know something about them.

 

Interesting . . .

[Sharaman]

I scanned through the posts but didn't read them all, so forgive me if this has already been stated.

 

P.S. am I the only one in the entire world who is absolutely certain that Mazrim Taim is Moridin?  I mean, come on, the end of KOD makes it so OBVIOUS.  Red and black floor tiles, fist with lightning bolts, "let the lord of chaos rule"?  Any of that ringing a bell here?

It's been said before - this was my response.

Suppose Taim= Moridin

Rand doesn't recognise Moridin at Shadar Logoth so either Taim or Moridin is altering his appearance.

 

Moridin at SL loses the TP when the Balefire crosses and then they clasp hands. Touch destroys Mask of Mirrors. Rand doesn't see a change of appearance. So Moridin is not using Mask of Mirrors. This is Moridin's real appearance.

 

So Taim is using Mask of Mirrors.

 

When Taim and Rand meet in LOC, Taim is not holding Saidin. They are very close and two Saidin Channelers can always feel when another one is holding Saidin (That's why Halima had a problem both with Logain in the Salidar Camp and also with Eben at Shadar Logoth).

 

So if Taim is using Mask of Mirrors he is doing so with TP, which rand cannot detect.

 

However Taim channels OP multiple times without changing appearance.

 

Hence if Taim is holding a TP Mask, he can channel both TP and OP at the same time.

 

We've never heard that channeling both TP and OP at the same time is possible and when TP touches OP at Shadar Logoth, very nasty things happen.

 

So Taim is not using Mask of Mirrors. This is Taim's real appearance.

 

But Taim doesn't look like Moridin. 

Hence Taim is not Moridin.

 

[Nethran Thaimal]

Can you rule out that he has facial reconstructive surgery and is healed by an Asha'man between every alternating Taim/Moridin scene?  :D

[Sevynwarr]

And Mask of Mirrors can't be tied off and inverted? It was my understanding that it was ALWAYS tied off and inverted, but whatever floats your boat.

 

BAM there's a nice hole in your hole in my theory.

[Nethran Thaimal]

And Mask of Mirrors can't be tied off and inverted? It was my understanding that it was ALWAYS tied off and inverted, but whatever floats your boat.

 

BAM there's a nice hole in your hole in my theory.

 

Lol.  Sorry, I wish I had more to add than that...but I don't.

[SmallLady]

I think Demandred is either in Murandy with King Roedel or he is one of the advisors to Borderlander King or Queens. Didn't it strike you that in the prologue to Path of Dreams, at least several advisors/generals meet Demandred's facial characteristics - hawk nose, slanted eyes?

Plus Graendal in tGS mentioned that he has stable position and a standing army at his disposal and she, herself, suspected that he was hiding with Borderlanders in the South. And frankly speaking, each time one of the Forsaken suspected the place were another Forsaken was hiding it turned out to be true!

I have to find quotes, but other Forsaken had suspected that 1) Masaana was hiding in WT, 2) Semirhage was with Seanchan, 3) Cyndane was Lanfear, 4)Graendal was in Arad Daman and all these suspicions turned out to be true. So if Graendal suspects that Demandred is with Borderlanders, then Demandred probably is there.

 

The only reason I have, to suspect Murandy, is because King Roendel suddenly out of nowhere became cunny military and political strategist (employing Red Hands bands to spook other Murandy lords into submission) as compared to him being a literal no-one for years (before Moiraine came to Emond's Field and Forsaken had broken free). Another thing, in KoD Talmanes mentions to Mat that King Roendel had two whole copies of Mat's book (military strategies) and if I remember correctly this book was old and rare enough that Mat originally cringed when he sited it because he didn't want anyone to find out he had dead generals memories in his brain and siting this book was a give away? Of course I also suspect Padan Fain to be in Murandy too this would explain Roendels transformation too.

[Nethran Thaimal]

Why would Demandred, who has more military experience than anyone in the world besides Mat, need a book on tactics and strategy?  He man knows war.  Inside and out.

[Majsju]

Well, Demandred was a general in the AOL, when war looked a great deal different than it does in the 3rd Age. Reading the literature the generals he will face have read would help him get some hints about how they think. Even the most arrogant general would not turn down an easy way to get even a small extra advantage.

[Sharaman]

And Mask of Mirrors can't be tied off and inverted? It was my understanding that it was ALWAYS tied off and inverted, but whatever floats your boat.

 

BAM there's a nice hole in your hole in my theory.

 

What happens if the MoM user is touched? As it would have been in this case?

 

[Nethran Thaimal]

This war, aside from shocklances, I think is going to look a frightening amount like the War of Shadow.  Traveling, lots o' Channelers both male and female. All sorts of Shadow nasties. Seems like he knows better what the Great Captains will do to adapt than they do, since he's captained it already.  I dunno.  I just don't think he fits Roedran.

 

And if MoM is super close to reality, you might not notice it.  Such as.. not being present on someone's clothes, just their face and hair.

[Sharaman]

And if MoM is super close to reality, you might not notice it.  Such as.. not being present on someone's clothes, just their face and hair.

And Mask of Mirrors can't be tied off and inverted? It was my understanding that it was ALWAYS tied off and inverted, but whatever floats your boat.

 

BAM there's a nice hole in your hole in my theory.

I was trying to remember the reference - it's certainly detected as "somebody channeling" in Semirhage's case, so it isn't necessarily tied off, though it is inverted.

I don't have the books unfortunately. But when Rand first meets Taim, first there are several Saldaean swords drawing blood and then, he hands over the seal (possible contact). After that, I think Flinn holds him by the shoulder, or he holds Flinn, while testing.

Taim and Moridin aren't the same height so it can't be "super close to reality" of MoM on just the face and hair.

Taim is noticeably shorter than Rand, who is the same height as Moridin.

So, no Mask of Mirrors for Taim. 

 

[Sab]

War has changed alot since the Forskaen's time.  best to fins oout all you can on the tatics of the times.  After all he knows very well the fates of the others who didn't take the "inferiors" of this time seriously.

 

I am assuming Rands plan to trap all the ways failed?  Still doesn't seem to be any shortage of shadowspawn using them.

[Sharaman]

War has changed alot since the Forskaen's time.  best to fins oout all you can on the tatics of the times.  After all he knows very well the fates of the others who didn't take the "inferiors" of this time seriously.

 

I am assuming Rands plan to trap all the ways failed?  Still doesn't seem to be any shortage of shadowspawn using them.

 

Some places refused to listen to Loial and Karldin plus they couldn't reach the Waygates inside Seanchan-controlled territory, Shadow coast, etc. Elder Haman is following up and trying to shut down some of those Waygates.