Demandred (Full Spoilers).

[mike-cook]

Obviously he wouldn't recognize the Asha'man. He doesn't actually go into the black tower and meets with them he has Taim do that. He just gives Taim his orders so he never actually goes in there and meets the Asha'man. Also he didn't recognize Flinn and Flinn hasn't been in the black tower in way too long he's been with Rand. He was there at Dumai's Wells to help Rand and then Rand selected him to be with him personally all the time since the beginning of a Crown of Swords. So there's no way he would recognize Flinn even if he did go in the black tower.

[Vulgir]

It makes the most sense.

I mean if he has nothing to do with the Black Tower then what the hell did he do that was so important in Lord of Chaos?

Also with using Taim as a proxy it gives Demandred more freedom to do other things.

Such as leading the huge Trolloc army that is being gathered in the borderlands?

 

In lord of Chaos Demanred using Masema

 

#  The chaos in Ghealdan caused by the Prophet is keeping King Ailron's troops tied up in Amadicia.

# LoC,Ch9 - Queen Alliandre of Ghealdan waffles over the Whitecloaks' offer of a treaty because of uncertainty about the Prophet.

# LoC,Ch10 - Rand wonders what he should do about Masema.

# LoC,Ch28 - Queen Alliandre writes to Rand expressing her concern about the Prophet. Rand thinks he really must do something about the man.

 

Taken from encyclopedia wot

[mike-cook]

True very possible but really what if he controlled Masema? I mean woopie Rand could destroy a whole country anytime he wants, that's not a very threatening army to anyone. Rand has all the Aiel and like half the world the only thing that could threaten him would be Black Asha'man. If it's anything but that then i'm going to be pretty disappointed.

[Vulgir]

Think...

 

It can't be stated that any other group in the entire series spread such anarchy and chaos as the Prophet and his army, swiping through areas of 3 countries and drawing the attentions of the entire Randland. Turning peoples opinoin against Rand because of their actions. How many times have people said something like JUST LIKE AT WHAT THE DRAGONS PROPHET IS DOING?!?!?

 

If it is the case that demandred has been controlling Masema with the evidince of Masesmas "visions of the dragon" in his dreams guiding him, then Sammaels comment of "Events to the south" would reffer to Masema, and not the Seanchan, thus ruling out Demandred having a hand in the Seanchan.

[mike-cook]

Ya true I forgot about all the chaos the prophet spread doing that. So it could be that Demandred is doing both. With Taim  as a proxy he has an army for war, which he mentions in the gathering storm, and revealing himself to Masema as Rand he spreads as much chaos as he can. Pretty brilliant guy.

[Vulgir]

IM anxious to see what comes off Demandreds lil spy seesion on Elayne in TAR, if anything. Seems too important to be redundent.

[Tel Asra Nejoar]

It makes the most sense.

I mean if he has nothing to do with the Black Tower then what the hell did he do that was so important in Lord of Chaos?

Also with using Taim as a proxy it gives Demandred more freedom to do other things.

Such as leading the huge Trolloc army that is being gathered in the borderlands?

 

In lord of Chaos Demanred using Masema

 

#  The chaos in Ghealdan caused by the Prophet is keeping King Ailron's troops tied up in Amadicia.

# LoC,Ch9 - Queen Alliandre of Ghealdan waffles over the Whitecloaks' offer of a treaty because of uncertainty about the Prophet.

# LoC,Ch10 - Rand wonders what he should do about Masema.

# LoC,Ch28 - Queen Alliandre writes to Rand expressing her concern about the Prophet. Rand thinks he really must do something about the man.

 

Taken from encyclopedia wot

 

im down with this, still think hes meddling elsewhere as well. wasnt it his job to keep tabs on rands progress. plus it fits his MO, after all, he was jealous of LTT, because he felt HE should have been the Dragon. And with the standing order to kill mat and perrin, we can easily see why masema wants to kill perrin. specially as "The Dragon" visited him on many occasions, telling him to do just that. Also he seemed a little too eager to see Rand, in a not very pleasant way if i remember right. As for his rule being secure, weve been told repeatedly that theyre lands slip into chaos and civil strife, so i dont think that his lands would be different. in fact, the only forsaken who was known to keep his lands in order was sammael, but only as far as the military was concerned, he seemed to forget the general public.

[Bob T Dwarf]

IM anxious to see what comes off Demandreds lil spy seesion on Elayne in TAR, if anything. Seems too important to be redundent.

 

That's what the gholam is up to.  Mat is just a target of opportunity, the gholam is really after Elayne.

 

Unfortunately, by going to Caemlyn, Mat is leading it straight to her.  Although, by Traveling the last few hundred miles, he may have thrown it off-track for awhile.

[Mr Ares]

It seems a bit redundant for Demandred to be gathering forces in the Blight, as that where Moridin is. He can easily gather the Shadowspawn armies, and then hand them over to Demandred to use in the field. No point wasting a great general on gathering the army.

[Shmuel Goldberg]

There isn't many places which make sense for Demandred to be. In or near the Black Tower would be one of them.

[maradon]

The argument against why Demandred would be ruling in Shara has little basis to it, we already know as much as anyone in Randland does about the Sharans, e.g. their monarchy, the make-up of their trading villages, some of the animals found there and how they train channelers. Therefore it would not be too difficult to introduce this new culuture if it was to be a force for the shadow rather than the light.

 

Plus think of the opportunity and favor it gives to Demandred, he'll be bringing hundreds of channelers to the LB perhaps with some different weaves. Added to this I imagine that the Sharan's will be able to field as large an army as the combined might of Randland, maybe not as well equiped but it will be the equivalent of a horde.

 

Furthermore Demandred would be able to transport them via waygate, making them more mobile than trollocs and other shadowspawn.

[Vulgir]

IM anxious to see what comes off Demandreds lil spy seesion on Elayne in TAR, if anything. Seems too important to be redundent.

 

That's what the gholam is up to.  Mat is just a target of opportunity, the gholam is really after Elayne.

 

Unfortunately, by going to Caemlyn, Mat is leading it straight to her.  Although, by Traveling the last few hundred miles, he may have thrown it off-track for awhile.

 

Where is the proof of this? Demandred doesnt seem like he sent the Ghoolam

1. in TAR he sees that Elayne is mad at Rand, not in love with him and thinks how he can use it AGAINST Rand, killing Elayne wouldnt acomplish this.

2. The ghoolam was taken out of the stasis box, i dont beleive there is anything that states Demandred has found a stasis box but Sammael has

 

3. ACoS,Ch15 - Sammael tells Carridin that he will send ... someone ... to help him against Aes Sedai.

 

I think it was Sammael that sent the Ghoolam, hence since Sammael is now dead it is free to stalk Matt

[Sentinel78]

Luckers, you indicated:

 

And I would say that if he had a focus it was the Shadowspawn, and that it was that of shich he was speaking. As for having a base--why need someone who can travel have a base?

 

This might make sense in the context of Demandred gathering for war.  However, the statement that Demandred's rule is secure points away from this theory.  All of the Forsaken are marked directly by the Dark One in a manner that makes all Trollocs/Fades/Draghkar, etc. obey their will.  The Forsaken don't have to do anything to secure their rule over Shadowspawn (aside from wild Shadowspawn in the Blight like the worms I'd imagine).

 

Also, this would seem to overlap with Moridin's duties at the moment. 

 

I discount Demandred having control of the Black Tower because Demandred went solo at the end of Winter's Heart to Shadar Logoth instead of bringing lackeys with him, he didn't recognize Damer Flinn, and his order to Kisman to kill Rand (Winter's Heart) overlapped with Taim's own order given separately, implying two different chains of command.

 

Shara's still the best bet. Civil war in Shara and they keep asking when the Dragon will break the world?  How much influence would Demandred have to really exert to get them to want to take out the Rand?  Just blame him for everything going wrong with the world, and point out he's a man who can channel (which the Sharans don't exactly treat too well). 

 

I doubt anybody's going to Shara, but Sharan armies coming in by gateway (even if Demandred has to say they're made with 'fool' boxes like Sammael did) to attack Rand... Possible, and I just can't think of anything better.

[sdelu]

I like the Isle of Madmen idea. I'm not sure that this is the "rule" he speaks of, but I highly doubt that it won't show up at some point in the future books. Not to mention he also has all the male Aiel channelers that went into the blight to fight the DO. If he's gathering an army of channelers, then chances are he has:

 

Black Ajah

Black Tower darkfriends

Isle of Madmen

Aiel male channelers

 

And considering Channelers can live for hundreds of years, he could have one heck of an army if the IoM and Aiel channelers managed to live.

 

 

 

There is considerably evidence for Taim having been raised Chosen himself. Either way Taim is his own boss.

 

I know this isn't aobut Taim so I'll keep this part short. I'm not sure if you just mean that he is now as important as the Chosen, because no, he is not Chosen, nor is he raised Chosen, because the Chosen aren't actually chosen by the DO. They're just the channelers that went over to him during the AoL. All of them. Thousands of them. Just like the dreadlords were the channelers that went over to him during the Trolloc Wars. This was stated by RJ. He might be a high-ranking channeler in the DO's forces, but he can't literally be one of the Chosen.

[Sentinel78]

because the Chosen aren't actually chosen by the DO

 

RJ said that a few DF-channelers (i.e., the Forsaken) were specifically marked by the DO, which gave them authority over Shadowspawn.  The 'Chosen' were these channelers.  This was actually a problem for the Dreadlords during the Trolloc Wars because the Dreadlords had to constantly negotiate with the Fades for control of the Trollocs throughout the War (although, in the beginning of the War, RJ indicates that there was a more clear-cut power-structure, basically indicating Ishamael/Ba'alzamon was in charge until he was trapped again after his 40 years walking the world per millennium).

 

In other words, not all DF-channelers are Chosen, and the ones that are  are explicitly chosen by the DO. 

 

BTW, RJ said that the mark Shaidar Haran gave to Alviarin was NOT the same type of mark.  RJ said Alviarin wouldn't be attacked by Shadowspawn, but they wouldn't obey her orders either... Some kind of intermediate level of DO-marking, short of Chosen.

 

[MatrixM]

 

Aiel male channelers

 

And considering Channelers can live for hundreds of years, he could have one heck of an army if the IoM and Aiel channelers managed to live.

Why do you think the aiel males would serve him?

[mockeryjones]

My guess is that Demandred engineered the chaos and regicide in Seanchan and then used that chaos to take control of the Seanchan homeland.  Considering the Seanchan military culture (the only army in the world that seems to have after action reviews) is far advanced of that in the west it would be an attractive prize for the Shadow's leading general.  

 

I don't entirely discount the possibility that Demandred is in Shara or the Land Of Madmen, but I do find those possibilities less likely due to the fact that adding those cultures and the characters that populate them doesn't make much sense given that the story has already turned towards conclusion with most if not all the major plot threads.  However these areas do (like the newly settled Murandy) have the appeal of actually appearing to be secured where Seanchan homelands may or may not still be in the throws of chaos.

 

 

 

[Swigaro]

My guess is that Demandred engineered the chaos and regicide in Seanchan and then used that chaos to take control of the Seanchan homeland.  Considering the Seanchan military culture (the only army in the world that seems to have after action reviews) is far advanced of that in the west it would be an attractive prize for the Shadow's leading general.  

 

Unlikely, as we know Semirhage was personally responsible for offing the entire Seanchan Royal family (with the exception of Tuon).  Tuon recieved reports that civil war is raging on the homeland.  I don't think that would fit with, "My rule is secure."

[MatrixM]

I guess it's possible that the regicide was part of the Semirhage-Demandred-Mesaana alliance.

If Demandred has the entire Seanchan military, Rand is screwed. Just a couple of things, though.

How can he get them across the ocean? He can't exactly reveal himself as a male channeler.

And there's some pretty hardcore loyalty to the throne, so they woudn't send false reports to the empress.

[Sentinel78]

They only recently announced that Seanchan is in complete chaos, with 50 different factions competing for the throne in a civil war.  That was at the beginning of Knife of Dreams.  Demandred couldn't have secured his rule over that many factions and already be gathering for war, as only a month or two has passed right?  Shara's civil war was reported way back in Book 6.  I'm not saying Demandred is in Shara, but it makes more sense that him putting down a continent-wide civil war in a matter of weeks.

[sdelu]

Why do you think the aiel males would serve him?

 

They go off into the blight alone with little or no training in the OP, so they can't resist being captured and turned by 13/13, or even darkfriend wise ones and fades. Or, they could just be darkfriends themselves.

 

Who knows? It's within the realm of possibilities. The DO is gathering armies, and Demandred will lead the armies, and he'll need some channelers, so I don't see it as being too far-fetched.

 

It would go well with his BT influence, as well, because he could have quite a force of channelers that way.

 

 

RJ said that a few DF-channelers (i.e., the Forsaken) were specifically marked by the DO, which gave them authority over Shadowspawn.  The 'Chosen' were these channelers.  This was actually a problem for the Dreadlords during the Trolloc Wars because the Dreadlords had to constantly negotiate with the Fades for control of the Trollocs throughout the War

 

Erm, yes and no, I think. It's really a matter of semantics, it seems, and the fact that RJ gave apparently conflicting information on the topic doesn't help it any. "the" Chosen (aka the 13) are called that because they were the only ones out of the Chosen that were sealed with the DO, and thus became parts of the legend. That's according to one of RJ's answers, in which he also states that all Aes Sedai who went over to the shadow during the War of the Shadow were known as Forsaken, though they called themselves Chosen. I think the mark was more or less just given to the ones that led some of his armies in battles and thus needed the power, not necessarily those who he "hand-picked," if you know what I mean, but just the ones that happened to claw their own way to the top at that point in time.

 

[smileyman]

From out in left field here.

 

What if Demandred is an Aiel chieftain?

 

 

 

[Lord of the Morning]

I think there are 2 logical places for demandred to be now, and thats either with the borderlanders or in murandy.  I think Demandred has been behind several plots throughout the series, including the prophet, and the black tower, but was ordered by the DO to rein himself in, gather an army, and wait among the light lands until the perfect time to strike, which brings me back to murandy and the borderlanders. 

 

Murandy:

We know it was barely a kingdom b4 the series, the king barely held the city, and the crown army was a joke.  Demandred could've desposed of roedran, assumed his identity, then used the combo of the salidar army crossing murandy, and the band of the red hand to bind the scattered nobles to him, and build up his army.  The fact that we've heard nothing of murandy since the band left seems ominous to me, demandred could very well be in murandy which, incidentally, has great tactical position, able to attack andor/tar valon/shienar and by extension tarwins gap from the south.

 

Borderlanders:

Quite frankly there has to be forsaken strings tugging the borderland army, the explanation that they "want to talk to the dragon reborn" is ludicrous, especially that they have 13 unaccounted for aes sedai lurking in their ranks.  Narisma said it right, a borderlander's place is guarding the border, they klnow that, and they know that the last battle is coming.  it simply makes no sense for the borderlanders to be searching for rand unless they have been influenced by at least one of the forsaken.

 

I don't like the Shara theory, it's been done already in this series, and the world is still learning to deal with the seanchan.  Isle of the madmen is a worse idea, dont see how demandred could possibly have gathered an army there considering the volatile society they live in, plus they've not even been mentioned in the main books.

 

My main critiscism of both the shara and madmen theory is that it's too fanficky for RJ, though he pulled a similar stunt with verin in tGS, while the orderlanders and murandy are established plot lines with fairly obvious clues, (though most is just circumstantial evidence)

 

In conclusion i have no idea where demandred is, he could be in murandy or the borderlanders, he could be in shara, or in the blight marshalling the trollocs, we don't have enough evidence to say where he is conclusively, and i can't wait to find out more in ToM

[Sentinel78]

This has not been discussed on this thread, but in Chapt 13 of Winter's Heart from Demandred's POV, Aran'gar says:

 

Demandred hardly scorned fleshly pleasures, but one day her cravings would be the death of her. As they already had been once. Notthat he would mourn, of course, if the next time was final. "You were responsible for watching him, Osan'gar," she went on, her voice caressing every syllable. "You, and Demandred." Osan'gar flinched, flicking his tongue against his lips, and she laughed throatily. "My own charge is . . ." She pressed a thumb down on the edge of the chair as if pinning something and laughed again.

 

Obviously, Osan'gar was responsible for watching Rand because he was tagging along with Rand everywhere as Dashiva, and Aran'gar was responsible for watching Egwene as Halima.  These are both pretty direct ways of watching somebody. 

 

Let's ignore Demandred's "rule is secure" and "gathering for war" statements for the moment, taking this statement of Aran'gar's at face value, could Demandred be someone in Rand's entourage?  How else could he 'watch' Rand?  Why wouldn't Rand recognize him through LTT's memories, if so?  Indirectly through the reports of Darkfriends I guess?

 

[smileyman]

 

Let's ignore Demandred's "rule is secure" and "gathering for war" statements for the moment, taking this statement of Aran'gar's at face value, could Demandred be someone in Rand's entourage?  How else could he 'watch' Rand?  Why wouldn't Rand recognize him through LTT's memories, if so?  Indirectly through the reports of Darkfriends I guess?

 

Supposing Amys is a DF (speculation on that is elsewhere in these threads). Could Rhuarc actually be Demandred? Have we ever had a POV from Rhuarc? His rule is secure, he is marshaling his forces for wear, he's close to Rand. It would be a simple matter for him to weave a disguise and then invert the weaves so that it's hidden.