The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Jong]

Additional thoughts after finishing reread of TsR and TFOH

 

Its pretty obvious that Asmo sent the trollocs to distract Rand while he hatched his plan for the Shaido. When Rand captures Asmo (as far as we know) he never questions him about how the trollocs got there, the shadow's tactics, strategy, etc... Nor, apparently, do the wonder girls ask such questions of Moggy later on.

 

Later in the end of TFOH, Rand gates in with ~5000 Aiel to Caemlyn. They are immediately attacked by an even larger number of Trollocs. I would estimate 10,000. After Rhavin is defeated, the trollocs run away and are eventually slaughtered in the city. The only damage to the palace we hear reference to is from Rand's bale fire duel. A few hours later Mat, Asmo, and Avi are playing tea party and Rand is receiving guests. Trollocs are not the cleanest company to keep around the palace and those cook pots don't fill themselves. It seems most likely for those reason that the trollocs only had recently arrived. Or else the place would be trashed.

 

So if they just arrived how did they get there? The conventional wisdom on how the trollocs got there is the ways.

 

This is problematic for a few reasons... First, Moggy tells Nynaeve that Rhavin knows about Rand's planned attack and has made preparations... Rand only made those plans the day before. That gives Rhavin at most about a day to line up his forces and get them in place. The ways are too slow. It takes 2 days to travel from Caemlyn to the boarderlands (as per teotw). Trollocs are undisciplined, I doubt they stand ready to depart at a moments notice. They should never have arrived in time if they took the ways.

 

Second, you can't parade 10,000 trollocs form under a book shop in the new city all the way across town and into the palace with out a few people taking notice. Night, day, fog, makes no difference. Everyone in town would know. Apparently no one in Caemlyn did notice or at least we never hear any thing about the trollocs before makes any comment about seeing shadowspawn nor does any andorman seem to know anything about them being there before Rhavin dies. Bashere was in the City, he certainly would have noticed being from Saldea and found the incident most remarkable. He never said anything about it.

 

 

The strangest part is that Rand nor, Mat, nor any of the Aiel, seem to be surprised when 10,000 trollocs show up right in front of them out of the blue in the middle of a Caemlyn. They are supposed tobe in a war against the Shadow, but they don't seem to be curious about enemy troop movements. Perhaps they know something we don't or perhaps they just don't care about trollocs now that Rand has Sa'Angreal.

 

And this same chain of events is reprised in KOD and later near Eboudar in TGS...

 

So how are the Frosaken transporting their minions?

 

 

I think it might be the way Trollocs transported themselves to the Aiel Waste.  How did they make it all the way to Imre Stand without crossing any Aiel scouts?  It might reveal a way for the shadowspawn to travel among Randland.

 

I just re-read TSR. There is alot going on at Imre Stand and Cold Rocks that didn't make much sense. The Trollocs suddenly attack Rand et al Imre Stand. The aiel are surprised but the trollocs are defeated anyway. Then 12 days later trollocs again launch a surprise attack at Cold Rocks and are defeated again.  If the Aiel had sent out scouts to find where the attack on Imre stand had come from they could have found out how the trollocs got there and the second attack would not have come as a surprise. This seems out of character.

 

The other question how did the trollocs get deep in the waste with out being detected? Perhaps waygates? But Ogier only built waygates connecting places where the live steadding, and groves in great cities. There are no ogier in the waste, so there should be no waygates...

[Diederichos]

Portal stones?

[Pete4]

Just a thought. I haven't seen it discussed before, but I'm not sure it hasn't.

 

I think this BUT could be related with Rand dishonoring the Maidens and their further reaction.

Remember they punished him, and in TFoH Sulin broke two of her spears and was close to breaking the third.

We know Rand kept ignoring them and leaving them behind many times, and they are angry with him about that.

 

I can imagine a couple of reactions that would have an impact in the story:

- Maidens leaving a strategic place during the LB.

- Maidens breaking spears and becoming Tinkers.

 

 

[ed2funy]

:o

I haven't heard it and I don't know if it has been discussed, but even if this isn't the BUT, it is huge. It is a possibility that can happen.

Though, with Rand's epiphany, it might not.

[Tathel]

Jong, i hadn't thought of it really in any depth till your post but it does seem that there may be another method to movement that isn't simply way gates. We know that way gates explain the two rivers and perhaps any other large trolloc body where there is a way gate. but the attack in the wastes seems odd. I would doubt ogier had a stedding or grew anything in the wastes, and given the Aiel's propensity for beign able to find any straggler in their borders (remember how surprised they are the kader(sp?)'s merchants made it so far without an aiel stopping them?)... so how did a trolloc raid that large hit the Aiel or even just the darkhound attack seems out of place, although i suppose the hounds can move much quicker and less noticed

[TheTraveler]

He All... I am brand new to Dragonmount and just finished tGS (started the WoT back in the fall).  I have a theory, maybe it's too simple, but I think that Shadowspawn can't Travel through gateways made of Saidar or Saidin.  But what it they CAN Travel through gateways made of the True Power?

 

Since they are made for the DO, maybe his power doesn't destroy them as they pass through.  On the other hand, both Saidar and Saidin are the True Source, the energy that drives the wheel of time, which was made by the Creator.  Makes sense that those might kill Shadowspawn, yes?

 

There's my 2 cents...

 

~TheTraveler

[Calderis]

He All... I am brand new to Dragonmount and just finished tGS (started the WoT back in the fall).  I have a theory, maybe it's too simple, but I think that Shadowspawn can't Travel through gateways made of Saidar or Saidin.  But what it they CAN Travel through gateways made of the True Power?

 

Since they are made for the DO, maybe his power doesn't destroy them as they pass through.  On the other hand, both Saidar and Saidin are the True Source, the energy that drives the wheel of time, which was made by the Creator.  Makes sense that those might kill Shadowspawn, yes?

 

There's my 2 cents...

 

~TheTraveler

 

You sir... beat me to it. I was thinking about the post farther up the page, about trolloc movements and such. And came to this conclusion, and came here to post... and well. yeah. nice theory... wish I'd beat ya...

[water_seeker]

He All... I am brand new to Dragonmount and just finished tGS (started the WoT back in the fall).  I have a theory, maybe it's too simple, but I think that Shadowspawn can't Travel through gateways made of Saidar or Saidin.  But what it they CAN Travel through gateways made of the True Power?

 

Since they are made for the DO, maybe his power doesn't destroy them as they pass through.  On the other hand, both Saidar and Saidin are the True Source, the energy that drives the wheel of time, which was made by the Creator.  Makes sense that those might kill Shadowspawn, yes?

 

There's my 2 cents...

 

~TheTraveler

 

You sir... beat me to it. I was thinking about the post farther up the page, about trolloc movements and such. And came to this conclusion, and came here to post... and well. yeah. nice theory... wish I'd beat ya...

 

LOL, you both beat me to it. :D

[Crael123]

He All... I am brand new to Dragonmount and just finished tGS (started the WoT back in the fall).  I have a theory, maybe it's too simple, but I think that Shadowspawn can't Travel through gateways made of Saidar or Saidin.  But what it they CAN Travel through gateways made of the True Power?

 

Since they are made for the DO, maybe his power doesn't destroy them as they pass through.  On the other hand, both Saidar and Saidin are the True Source, the energy that drives the wheel of time, which was made by the Creator.  Makes sense that those might kill Shadowspawn, yes?

 

There's my 2 cents...

 

~TheTraveler

 

You sir... beat me to it. I was thinking about the post farther up the page, about trolloc movements and such. And came to this conclusion, and came here to post... and well. yeah. nice theory... wish I'd beat ya...

 

LOL, you both beat me to it. :D

 

 

I wish i had thought of that.... :P

[BladeDancer]

He All... I am brand new to Dragonmount and just finished tGS (started the WoT back in the fall).  I have a theory, maybe it's too simple, but I think that Shadowspawn can't Travel through gateways made of Saidar or Saidin.  But what it they CAN Travel through gateways made of the True Power?

 

Since they are made for the DO, maybe his power doesn't destroy them as they pass through.  On the other hand, both Saidar and Saidin are the True Source, the energy that drives the wheel of time, which was made by the Creator.  Makes sense that those might kill Shadowspawn, yes?

 

There's my 2 cents...

 

~TheTraveler

 

You make a great point.

 

Can Shadowspawn use Gateways created using the True Power? The implications are immense, if the Dark One allows more than Moridin to use it. If Dreadlords and Black Ajah and Forsaken can use the True Power to transpost their Armies then the massive advantages that Travelling gives the Light forces are cancelled out. I have talked in depth about the implications of Travelling during the Last Battle in the Military Discussion thread - go check it out.

[Entretamis]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, havent looked at all 160 pages.  Anyways i believe it was in the 4-6 books. Slayer goes to the ToG while in the wolf dream and enters it.  Since there is no appearend way to enter the tower in the "real world" could slayer be the thrid person and help mat and thom enter the tower via wolf dream?

[Dreamwalker]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, havent looked at all 160 pages.  Anyways i believe it was in the 4-6 books. Slayer goes to the ToG while in the wolf dream and enters it.  Since there is no appearend way to enter the tower in the "real world" could slayer be the thrid person and help mat and thom enter the tower via wolf dream?

 

Interesting idea, but I highly doubt that Slayer would ever help them. Also, there is a way to get inside in the real world - you use a bronze knife to draw the symbols from the beginning of the game Snakes & Foxes. We learn this from Olver in KoD Ch.10 (who learned it from Birgitte).

[Elwynn]

Something I can't quite understand. I thought I remembered reading about this somewhere long ago, but I can't find anything. Seems to me BS would remember which book it was too, instead of 'somewhere in 4-6.'

LoC prologue

"He released the One Power immediately, and with the vanished sweetness went the heightened senses that made everything sharper, clearer. The absence of saidin left him hollow, yet here only a fool would even appear ready to channel. Besides, here only a fool would want to see or smell too clearly."

 

I can't really understand why. All I can think of is maybe it's just a huge annoyance to the DO to have OP channeled around him.

OP drilled the bore and didn't hurt him, and somehow I just don't see being able to channel directly at the DO and kill him before he can wipe you off of randland. Otherwise LTT would have done just that.

I know you'll get burned to a cinder channeling TP there, but why would only a fool appear ready to channel OP? DO weakness? I know OP is TP's (DO's essence) opposite in sense, but just channeling straight at him to kill him seems...too simple a plotline for RJ. Could you even do that through the thinning in the pattern at SG?

I know RJ said it was specific circumstances that let DO taint saidin in the first place, but why not have forsaken channel at him to do it again? Maybe because they would go insane, but a DF asha'man or something?

[jcatt]

I believe the big secret has something to do with Mat's Ashandari. When talking to the foxes he says "I want a way to be free of aes sedai and the power" Most take this as just meaning the female aes sedai since mat's ter'angreal only absorbs women channeling. But if you think about it the foxes gateway is put into ruidean around the breaking of the world. Since they seem to feed on memories and sensations and probably haven't had a visitor since the breaking who knows if they even know that aes sedai no longer refers to males using the power. Not to mention the general way he says "the power" saidar and saidin are both a part of the one power they both would fall in the blanket statement of wanting to be free of the power. So I have two theories on what Mat's Ashandari is. First maybe it is a ter'angreal like the medallion that works for saidin. Most would discount this since he apparently gets killed by Rahvin using saidin in FoH. I am in the middle of rereading the series and am only on book 4 so i haven't checked but maybe he does not have it in hand when rahvin attacks or it is not touching his skin (maybe he is wearing gloves?) the way the other terangreal must be to work. Perhaps even some other form of activation is required. My second theory is that it will have to do something with mat's task of giving up half the light of the world. Maybe it in someway is used to cut saidin, saidar or even the true power from the pattern. My next best guess so far is the secret might have something to do with Rand and the Aiel chiefs knowing an apparently powerful song of growing from the ruidean flashbacks that could be the traveling peoples song. However I think my theories about Mat's ashandari are more likely.        

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Scott Farstrider]

Some random thougts about the BUT, starting from book 4.

Need, why have the characters quit using something that was "plot" effective in 4,5,6

 

the Woman clothed in only her hair.ter

 

the broken female CK access tool in Tarabon,how was it broken,can it be repaired, and what about Moggy's comment in 5? that there was a nasty little surprise in that museum, remember Eggy touched the CK tool and got spikes of pain in her head? What really happened to her there.

 

Did our super girl duo (Nyn and Elane) search that museum thourghly for usefull stuff? What became of the rest of the stuff they found?

[Crael123]

Some random thougts about the BUT, starting from book 4.

Need, why have the characters quit using something that was "plot" effective in 4,5,6

 

the Woman clothed in only her hair.ter

 

the broken female CK access tool in Tarabon,how was it broken,can it be repaired, and what about Moggy's comment in 5? that there was a nasty little surprise in that museum, remember Eggy touched the CK tool and got spikes of pain in her head? What really happened to her there.

 

Did our super girl duo (Nyn and Elane) search that museum thourghly for usefull stuff? What became of the rest of the stuff they found?

 

well the ter angreal was broken so you cant use it anymore...

[a5m]

When talking to the foxes he says "I want a way to be free of aes sedai and the power" Most take this as just meaning the female aes sedai since mat's ter'angreal only absorbs women channeling.

 

This is not true. It stops saidin also. This is clearly shown during the first night partying for Egwene's elevation to Amyrlin. After Mat stopped dancing with Halima. Immediately after he finished the dance and walks away he feels the foxhead go cold and Halima has got a shocked look on her face. The shocked look didn't come from Mat walking away as Mat thought but because the web Halima tried to spin broke apart. 

[Scott Farstrider]

On a side note, if there is a second, although damaged CK access key, are there more, what about male CK access keys?

[Knobs Mahoney]

It doesn't matter if there are more male or female CK access keys, as Rand obliterated the male Choedan Kal in the end of TGS and the female Choedan Kal melted in the cleansing of saidin.

[jcatt]

Then why does Mat's ter'angreal not stop rahvin's attack in FoH then. Perhap's this is because Rahvin uses a storm of lightning. Maybe to do this his weaves were on the sky which shot down the lightning not on mat.

[Diederichos]

The One Power didn't kill Mat, the lightning bolt striking right beside him did I think. It's the difference between weaving a boulder of air and throwing it at him and lifting an actual boulder over his head and dropping it.

[Atropos]

Hi all! New to Dragonmount, but love the site!

 

I didn't have time to read thru all 161 pages, but didn't see "New Forms of Healing" in the first 50 or so. When Nyn was Delving Logain to try and heal his gentling, it was described as a hole. Hole...Bore...Rand knows he needs two women to safely use Callandor, maybe one will be Nyn and they will Heal the bore.

 

Just my $0.02

[thewalrus777]

Hi all! New to Dragonmount, but love the site!

 

I didn't have time to read thru all 161 pages, but didn't see "New Forms of Healing" in the first 50 or so. When Nyn was Delving Logain to try and heal his gentling, it was described as a hole. Hole...Bore...Rand knows he needs two women to safely use Callandor, maybe one will be Nyn and they will Heal the bore.

 

Just my $0.02

 

Interesting...definitely not far fetched. And maybe to completely seal the bore, you've got to 'heal' that part of the pattern.

[Dreamwalker]

Hi all! New to Dragonmount, but love the site!

 

I didn't have time to read thru all 161 pages, but didn't see "New Forms of Healing" in the first 50 or so. When Nyn was Delving Logain to try and heal his gentling, it was described as a hole. Hole...Bore...Rand knows he needs two women to safely use Callandor, maybe one will be Nyn and they will Heal the bore.

 

Just my $0.02

 

Interesting...definitely not far fetched. And maybe to completely seal the bore, you've got to 'heal' that part of the pattern.

 

This actually just made me think that Nynaeve and Flinn really need to meet up at some point and compare notes. The two of them working together with saidar and saidin could probably heal some ridiculous stuff - maybe this bore theory, or maybe Rand's wounds, or maybe even raising the dead?

[Morsker]

I posted "healing the wound heals the Bore" in the 3-become-one thread, but I couldn't think of any way for it to be the "big unnoticed thing". Rand gets the wounds in books 2 and 7. I still like the healing theory, but I don't think it can be the thing we're searching for in this thread.