The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Sharaman]

Slayer's power must indeed come from GloD. His PoV in WH says he was "granted many powers" and only GloD or the Creator has the requisite ability to grant powers. He can be either Luc or Isam in TaR or normal space, whatever he chooses as demonstrated there.

He's done plenty of contracts for the Chosen - everyone of them knows of his existence and his peculiar abilities.

But he's also been discussed so often it's unlikely that BWS meant he was the BUT

[thewalrus777]

Once again another awesome post Sharaman. Thanks for reminding me that the Chosen do use him often. And he can be one or the other can he. Didn't Rand see Luc in TAR?

[Ataxia]

When Olver first meets Mat they play the snake/foxes game. There is a quote of Mat saying he doesnt roll the dice when he plays with him, and lets Olver roll all the time. Think this could be a clue for Mats rescue? That his luck could beat the game?  page 641

[Dmitri]

Hmm, maybe Avi's ability to unravel weaves is also known by the wise ones. That would explain how a DF wise one would get the domination band from Cad's stash. Also Cad notices the Wise One with her is able to learn her weaves by observing her make them. She sets the traps in their presence.

 

Hmm, maybe Avi's ability to unravel weaves is also known by the wise ones. That would explain how a DF wise one would get the domination band from Cad's stash. Also Cad notices the Wise One with her is able to learn her weaves by observing her make them. She sets the traps in their presence.

 

So if a certain evil WO saw what weaves cadsuane put on them, she could unravel them....

 

To all of this: http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,50624.0.html

 

27. Question How did Elza defeat the wards on Cadsuane's plain wooden box?

27. Answer: Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves, and in other ways made into a tool of Shaidar Haran. Not all of it was pleasant for her.

 

[Batsoww]

Hi all.  I'm a long time lurker, and as many others before me, I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents on what the Unnoticed thing is...

 

I read this last page on the forum and people have begun to address Slayer and his entering TAR in the flesh.  I also have seen the posts referring to this as an event or effect since it has been "going on for a long time" and was first mentioned in books 4-6.

 

Well I'm currently on a re-read and just finished book 6 and the one thing that is mentioned in books 4-6 is the Wise Ones saying how dangerous entering TAR in the flesh is and that you lose a piece of yourself.  Couldn't the "unnoticed" thing simply be that we have glanced over the fact that RAND entering TAR in the flesh several times (at least 3 that I can think of) had more of an effect on him than originally thought?  I believe the Wise One's reaction to Egwene's questions regarding TAR in the flesh begin in book 4 and Rand enters in Book 5.  In Book 6, I vaguely remember Egwene thinking about it before she leaves for Salidar via TAR.

 

This fits with the timeline that Sanderson has laid out and it also could mean HUGE ramifications if Rand has somehow lost a piece of himself in TAR and needs to somehow recover it.

 

Anyway, after perusing a bit of this thread (wow 107 pages), I just thought I'd mention what I thought it was. 

 

Sorry if mentioned many many times before. (Again 107 pages is a lot).

[shardfmtc]

I might not remember this right but I thought the Avi told Elayne that it is something that the wise ones teach and that they start with very small weaves.  So I would think that all wise ones that can channel could also unravel weaves.

[Sharaman]

Hey, it hasn't been discussed much actually. TAR yes, Slayer yes, but TAR in the flesh, not really discussed in such detail.

One could build a lot of scenarios around it so it's not a bad idea. Egwene and Perrin seem to have got away with it, but who knows?

Apart from "in the flesh" effects, the other possibility is maybe, there are ways to use TAR to do things that haven't been considered. You can't reach Shayol Ghul but maybe other actions are possible.

Transporting an army via TAR or setting up ambushes might be cool.

 

[SammuelLoE]

I believe Slayer was given his abilities by the DO himself. IMO Luc and Isam became one and the same at probably Shayol Ghul. They were twisted in some fashion were one lives in the flesh in reality, and the other lives in the flesh in TAR. To me it has to be the DO's doing because not even the Forsaken can just step out of the World of Dreams. I mean just because a forsaken appears from nowhere doesn't mean they may have stepped of TAR. They could of also used a weave of invisibility and masked their ability to channel. It would just seem to me that only the DO could bestow an ability like that to someone. And seeing that neither Isam or Luc could channel or be Dreamers, he would naturally need to give them a way to do the things that are needed to be done. I don't even think the Forsaken know he exists. Probably only the DO, Moridin, and Shaidar Haran knows of the intity Slayer, and what his purpose is.

 

Regarding the ability to travel without gateways, has anyone ever noticed in the very first scence in EoTW that Ishmael travels without using gateways, but there is a shimmmer in the air and suddenly he is there. He does it twice, once in the castle and once when following Lew Therin to DM. This always seemed strange to me, and reading your post reminded me of that. Perhaps Ishmael/Mordrin can travel without gateways aswell?

[Crael123]

No moridin needs gateways just like every body else. but I find Batsoww's point interesting. Rand entered Dreamworld when he was fighting Rahavin and other times and i had forgot about what the Wise ones said. but then that might just effect woman because Perrin also has entered, via wolf dream like when he was rescuing Faile, and he doesn't seem changed at all

[shinerfan]

When did Perrin enter TAR in the flesh? I thought he was always in the Wolf Dream. Rand, Ishy/Moridin, Slayer, Rahvin, and Egwene are the only ones I remember doing this but since the Wise Ones warned Egwene of the dangers at least some of them must be capable of it. Maybe just the dreamers?

[Batsoww]

I'm glad this thought had not been discussed.  

 

Another thing had occurred to me as well after speaking to a friend about my thoughts.  He stated that Rand could have lost a piece of himself because Rahvin attempted to change him physically inside TAR.  That would explain why Egwene and the Forsaken don't seem affected by physically being inside TAR.  It reminds me of when Moghedien threatened Nynaeve that she would make her a horse everytime she entered TAR but that was via the dream.  Rahvin's actions on Rand in my mind could have left more far reaching effects that we don't see until the later books.

 

I can see how this could be glanced over easily because we have not seen Rand enter TAR physically since spying on Egwene and co in the TAR Stone of Tear.

[Thews Lerin]

Sorry, but I didn't have the patience to read through all 108 pages. Lots of repetition, and lots of theories brought up that have been thoroughly discussed already.

Also, many of the theories don't seem about anything important, which is probably why they are not mentioned later in the series.

Here's one that seems very important (IMHO) but not discussed very much (that I have seen): Rand's sickness when he seizes Saidin. I'll have to go back and reread to see when it first manifests.

1 - We don't know what causes it. At first I think RJ lead us to believe that it had something to do with the taint, but after the cleansing, he still deals with it.

2 - It's getting worse. See TGS.

3 - It's to the point of being debilitating. Again, see TGS.

4 - This could be a major problem for our boy Rand if he gets to the point that he can no longer channel because of it.

 

I really haven't read any other theories that I think are about something this potentially major, and that we know so little about. But I could have just missed them. If anyone has read any good theories on this subject, please enlighten me.

[Teslan]

 

 

Who sent the Aiel who atacked the sister in Caemlyn/Cairhien?

 

 

Doesn't really continue. Unless it is related to a DF wise one.

[Sharaman]

Rand's sickness starts in CoS (Book seven). After he crosses balefire with Moridin in Shadar Logoth. Lots of theories why it happens but it's not book 4-6.

The "Aiel" were actually Whitecloaks in disguise according to most theories (like the guys who attacked Rand a while later). In that case, they were sent by Fain.

[Teslan]

Is there any supporting evidence for the Aiel being Whitecloaks? I do not see it myself, since

 

A) I have more credence that Aiel would be able to cause such a perfect amount of damage with their spears.  Not quite killing but near mortally wounding.

B) Whitecloaks do not LOOK like Aiel. Skin tone, height, tan lines! All these things would show in Cadin sor and I do not think it could go un noticed.

C) How does it advance Fains intentions? Only the Tower proper and perhaps Darkfriends would wish to disrupt the negotiations.

[Sharaman]

Some guys parsed the evidence - apparently it's been discussed somewhere on one of these sites. They did find some evidence (Dark hair, short, something like that).

The Aiel DF theme does come up quite a few times in several books (4,5,6) and it's been discussed. I like it myself, but this attack is supposed to be something else if my memory is correct.

 

[Luckers]

The "Aiel" were actually Whitecloaks in disguise according to most theories (like the guys who attacked Rand a while later). In that case, they were sent by Fain.

 

Actually I think its far more likely that they were Asha'men commanded by Taim to drive a wedge between Rand and the Aes Sedai. We even have evidence compulsion was used--you'll note that Demira is following her path, a man leers at her, and she suddenly decides to turn into the exact alley that a group of men were waiting to stab her. That leer and her sudden aversion sounds very similar to Theodrin's wilder 'trick' of being about to make men want to, or not want to kiss her.

 

More significantly the timing demands that the men were certain she'd take that alley. They had someone warn the warders accross the city at the exact moment of the attack, which means they intended for it to take place exactly when and where it did. Demira had no reason to enter that alley, states that it is a diversion from her path, even states that there were other men leering at her that she didn't react to--yet they knew. They can't have just been relying on her getting fed up all of a sudden with the male attention she was recieving--not unless it was backed by a compulsive push.

 

From there the Asha'men were in a position to know Caemlyn and plan around that knowledge, they had a motive (or rather Taim did), and they had the knowledge of weapons to pull off the non-fatal stabbings. Also note that when Demira is stabbed she reaches for saidar--struggles for it, but cannot get it. Of course thats a weak point, we've seen panic foil attempts to touch the Source before--but just throwing it out there on top of the compulsive one.

 

B) Whitecloaks do not LOOK like Aiel. Skin tone, height, tan lines! All these things would show in Cadin sor and I do not think it could go un noticed.

 

Those Aiel did not look like Aiel. Demira describes one of them as being short, and another as having black eyes. They also did not sound Aiel with their references to the Dragon Reborn and the 'witches'.

 

 

[Teslan]

That'll teach me to think I remember something from a book I haven't read it too long!

 

I shall have to re read and consider.  The Asha'man is an interesting concept. Shall have to think. Though given Rands promise of death to Taim should an Aes Sedai die, seems like a risky strategy.

 

Much to think on.

[Luckers]

I shall have to re read and consider.  The Asha'man is an interesting concept. Shall have to think. Though given Rands promise of death to Taim should an Aes Sedai die, seems like a risky strategy.

 

Fits his style though--blunt attacks as long as he can distance himself. He did the exact same thing with the Fearsome Foursome attack on the Sun Palace in tPoD--and the attack on Algarin's manor  ;D

[lordofsoup]

 

and the attack on Algarin's manor  ;D

 

This one always confuses me.  How dod 100,000 trollocs get that deep into Randland, without being seen.  It would literly take years to move that many through the ways, unless Macha Shin is gone?  It seems like the Shadow has some way of moving great numbers of Trollocs that we do not know about, I am think Imre Stand here.  I also thought that Taim did not know where Rand was.  Logain did not tell him, and Logain said, that he thought Taim would have put him to the question to find out where he was taking all of the Asha'men. 

[ed2funy]

Machin Shin is either controlled by Fain or the DO...

 

I would have to say the Ways...

Maybe TAR...

 

we don't know about that yet.

[lordofsoup]

one more thing, I know that this is in book 7, but is that Mashadar, that Fain summons, when he destroys Caraline's camp, and nearly kills Rand?

[ed2funy]

No....

 

It was a bubble of evil...

 

It was just unnatural fog that killed people... :P

[lordofsoup]

so its just a coincodence?  that it dident harm Fain?  He just disappeared right after Rand showed up, and then before Rand could touch Toram, and possibly convert him, the fog appeared? 

 

 

Lurkers, could u make this into a contest?  The first poster, (and confirmed by Brandon that it is what he was thinking of) who discovers the "The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6" gets to be an honorary Mod?  that would make this thread into a blood bath.

[ed2funy]

It didn't harm a lot of people...

 

Also, the bubble would have been from the DO....

Doesn't Fain's evil kinda counter his?

 

lol....a bloody blood bath... :P