The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Sentinel78]

Luckers, I read your Unseen Eyes theory.  Have you ever considered that the Unseen Eyes are wolves that have died (or are alive but asleep)?  We know from Perrin's POV that dead wolves retire to the TAR, but aside from Hopper we've never SEEN any.  I've struggled with Perrin's relevance to the story, i.e., why he's ta'veren at all.  Maybe your Unseen Eyes theory is related to the wolves.

[csarmi]

What's up with all those Darkhounds running back and forth? We've never really seen them doing anything meaningful.

[bronnt]

Luckers, I read your Unseen Eyes theory.  Have you ever considered that the Unseen Eyes are wolves that have died (or are alive but asleep)?  We know from Perrin's POV that dead wolves retire to the TAR, but aside from Hopper we've never SEEN any.  I've struggled with Perrin's relevance to the story, i.e., why he's ta'veren at all.  Maybe your Unseen Eyes theory is related to the wolves.

 

It's possible.  That essentially precludes the unseen watches from the BUT, since we already knew about wolves wandering T'A'R, both in between lives (apparently) and when they're alive and apparently awake too.  It doesn't really have the kind of impact to make a difference on the story, which Brandon has assured us that the BUT will.

 

Also, there's that interesting tid-bit where Perrin is talking t Birgitte, and Hopper doesn't see her.  "You spoke at the air, Young bull.  There was no she."

[talligan]

Maybe it has to do with all the Aes Sedai we see doing the nasty with their Warders. I seem to remember this starting around book 4 or so and yet none of them have any children.

 

One example springs to my mind:

 

Chapter 22 of TFoH

Though he could hear both of them breathing, the Warder's steps still made barely an audible noise. Moiraine's hair hung about her face, and she held a dark robe around her, the silk shining with the moon.....

 

"I am surprised you were not here sooner, Moiraine... You usually come looking for me as soon as you sense trouble."

 

"I have never explained all that I do or do not do." Her voice was as coolly mysterious as it had ever been, yet even in the moonlight, Rand was certain that she was blushing.

So there's Moiraine and Lan sometime in book 5, I can't find an example from book 4 because my gf has it - but I'm also pretty sure in book 6 there's talk of Myrelle doing it with Lan (Lan again! The man gets around).

 

So where are all the Aes Sedai kids? In a world sans birth control you'd think there would be a bunch of them running amok.

 

 

 

[Terez]

They have birth control - Elayne mentions that she could have drank some heartleaf tea when she had sex with Rand, but she chose not to (and therefore got pregnant).  Min drinks hers like a good girl, and Aviendha probably just got lucky, considering that she didn't seem to plan on having sex with Rand right at that moment (same for Min's first time).

[talligan]

Dang, I was excited about that for like 2 minutes  :P Good mystery though, this is exciting stuff.

[DemandredFO]

I don't know if Lan and Moriane are have conjugal visits.  I seem to remember in Moraine POV, one of the few I wish there were more, that she didn't sleep with lan but never made a fuss about the women who threw themselves at Lans feet.  Well we know Myrelle did it with lan because Nyneave wants to kill her and also the are some AS and AM, I'm quite sure all of them aren't doing it for politics sake i.e. Corelle and Damar.

[Sharaman]

Pretty sure Lan-Moiraine weren't an item in that sense.

She's too detached and cool about the random women who throw themselves at him and their conversation when she tells him she's transferring the bond doesn't have any references to sexual intimacy, while it does to everything else. So there probably isn't any sexual intimacy.

I suspect that Moiraine hasn't ever had a male-female relationship.

She's too focussed on the DR and has been since she left the Tower in NS.

About the other AS-warder pairings, where's the unnoticed part?

Some do have a sexual relationship, many don't, one pretends to (Elza) for other reasons.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Hey when does Noal show up?

[Sharaman]

Noal arrives in Book VII (aCoS)

[Luckers]

Hey the miscellanious section is up in the Compilation.

 

 

[Dreamwalker]

Regarding Mat's Ravens (outlined in this section of the Compilation http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,57075.msg1630920.html#msg1630920 - thanks Luckers! :))

 

The Deathwatch Guard have raven tattoos - I could totally see being Prince of the Ravens putting him in charge of the Deathwatch Guard. (sidenote - now that Tuon's been raised Empress, is his title going to change too?) Don't think it's the BUT if that's it though.

 

But when I first read the dream, I always thought the ravens were supposed to just be him having to deal with Tuon and Selucia - a parallel of the image of Perrin with a falcon and hawk on his shoulders. I think that could still be the likely meaning of the dream, or simply the fact that he'd marry Tuon.

[Terez]

The ravens was my idea.  Luckers' comment is wrong though:

 

Only referenced once in books 4-6 (in the dream)' date=' however Tuon jokes often on making him property.  The problem is this doesn’t fit the Big Thing, which is supposed to fade a bit more into the background after book 6. This becomes heightened with Tuon’s joking.[/quote']

It's referenced in book 4 when the raven tattoos are introduced, and again in 6 when Egwene has the dream about Mat.  Also, Brandon didn't say anything about it 'fading into the background'.  He just said that it doesn't become any more relevant later in the series, that we should have picked up on it when it first showed up.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Noal arrives in Book VII (aCoS)

Thanks. I didn't think he was the 'The Big But' but I was thinking about him when I was reading this tread. He is always on my mind

[bronnt]

Noal arrives in Book VII (aCoS)

Thanks. I didn't think he was the 'The Big But' but I was thinking about him when I was reading this tread. He is always on my mind

 

I like Big Buts.  I don't know why.

[Ashaman Kovan]

As long as you know you other brother can't deny....I couldn't resist. Sue me.

[Luckers]

The ravens was my idea.  Luckers' comment is wrong though:

 

Only referenced once in books 4-6 (in the dream)' date=' however Tuon jokes often on making him property.  The problem is this doesn’t fit the Big Thing, which is supposed to fade a bit more into the background after book 6. This becomes heightened with Tuon’s joking.[/quote']

It's referenced in book 4 when the raven tattoos are introduced, and again in 6 when Egwene has the dream about Mat.  Also, Brandon didn't say anything about it 'fading into the background'.  He just said that it doesn't become any more relevant later in the series, that we should have picked up on it when it first showed up.

 

The deathwatch guards having ravens are not references to Mat having them or becoming property. For that matter we don't even know that the Raven's in Egwene's dreams represent tattoo's. Still I'll clarify the significance of what a raven tattoo is.

[Terez]

The ravens was my idea.  Luckers' comment is wrong though:

 

Only referenced once in books 4-6 (in the dream)' date=' however Tuon jokes often on making him property.  The problem is this doesn’t fit the Big Thing, which is supposed to fade a bit more into the background after book 6. This becomes heightened with Tuon’s joking.[/quote']

It's referenced in book 4 when the raven tattoos are introduced, and again in 6 when Egwene has the dream about Mat.  Also, Brandon didn't say anything about it 'fading into the background'.  He just said that it doesn't become any more relevant later in the series, that we should have picked up on it when it first showed up.

 

The deathwatch guards having ravens are not references to Mat having them or becoming property. For that matter we don't even know that the Raven's in Egwene's dreams represent tattoo's. Still I'll clarify the significance of what a raven tattoo is.

Well, we wouldn't know how to interpret Egwene's dream if not for the reference to the tattoos in book 4, so it's quite relevant.  The two clues are dependent on each other, and the tattoos themselves are the 'detail'.

[water_seeker]

I just hope the BUT isn't another "gasp".  That was kind of a letdown.

[Luckers]

Well, we wouldn't know how to interpret Egwene's dream if not for the reference to the tattoos in book 4, so it's quite relevant.  The two clues are dependent on each other, and the tattoos themselves are the 'detail'.

 

Course we would. Egwene dreams of two ravens sinking their claws into Mat's flesh, so what if it simply shows Tuon sinking her claws into Mat. It's fairly normal imagery for a woman gaining a romantic foothold on a man, especially if that foothold grants her power over him, which I'm guessing based on Seanchan culture, it does. Indeed, Fortuona directly states that the Empress can have no equals. That infers clearly that her husband is her inferior.

 

Indeed, it is very similar to the dreams she has about Faile and Berelain--the hawk and falcon. A fact which she directly compares.

 

Mat spoke words she almost understood - the Old Tongue, she thought - and two ravens alighted on his shoulders, claws sinking through his coat into the flesh beneath. He seemed no more aware of them that Perrin had been of the hawk and the falcon, yet the defiance passed across his face, and then grim acceptance.

[Terez]

Similar, but not the same.  In the dream with Mat, the ravens actually sink into his flesh, unlike in Perrin's dream.  It's more similar to where Perrin sees the dragons sinking into Rand's flesh.

[NetSlider]

Ok, I’ve been away for a while (a long while); changed my job and location so it was a bit crazy. Hope finally will be here more often. Anyway, I guess what I’m trying to say is that I missed you all and the WOT world.

Going to the topic at hand, Luckers, I have to completely agree with you, for what it’s worth. While not appearing on the boards I was still thinking about this whole thing and re-listening to the books. The only thing besides “the eyes” that somewhat comes close to BcUT is headbands, I think, but the TAR definitely fits better.

Expending on the subject, TAR is also very interesting topic in and of itself and carries multiple questions/complications. For example, why no one can go to SG in it (if I’m not mistaken on this)? Or how Lanfear claimed it to be her domain and she was the one who released DO. Did she do somehow through TAR or in some connection with it? I’m still thinking on the whole further implications of the TAR, DO, Lanfear, Finns, and all the other elements connected to it, but IMO “the eyes” is probably the BcUT.

Ah, what the hell, I’ll trough my five cents with Luckers and say it openly (I’ll come out of the closet, so to speak), I completely join “the eyes” faction (“The Eyes© factions is a trade mark of NetSlider and not do be used without prior written permission or legal authorization”)

 

[NetSlider]

The ravens was my idea.  Luckers' comment is wrong though:

 

Only referenced once in books 4-6 (in the dream)' date=' however Tuon jokes often on making him property.  The problem is this doesn’t fit the Big Thing, which is supposed to fade a bit more into the background after book 6. This becomes heightened with Tuon’s joking.[/quote']

It's referenced in book 4 when the raven tattoos are introduced, and again in 6 when Egwene has the dream about Mat.  Also, Brandon didn't say anything about it 'fading into the background'.  He just said that it doesn't become any more relevant later in the series, that we should have picked up on it when it first showed up.

 

The deathwatch guards having ravens are not references to Mat having them or becoming property. For that matter we don't even know that the Raven's in Egwene's dreams represent tattoo's. Still I'll clarify the significance of what a raven tattoo is.

Well, we wouldn't know how to interpret Egwene's dream if not for the reference to the tattoos in book 4, so it's quite relevant.  The two clues are dependent on each other, and the tattoos themselves are the 'detail'.

He's the prince of the ravens. I thought that it made it all clear. (Well, besides the fact that we have no clue that Prince of the Ravens actually means, that is).

[Sentinel78]

The ravens was my idea.  Luckers' comment is wrong though:

 

Only referenced once in books 4-6 (in the dream)' date=' however Tuon jokes often on making him property.  The problem is this doesn’t fit the Big Thing, which is supposed to fade a bit more into the background after book 6. This becomes heightened with Tuon’s joking.[/quote']

It's referenced in book 4 when the raven tattoos are introduced, and again in 6 when Egwene has the dream about Mat.  Also, Brandon didn't say anything about it 'fading into the background'.  He just said that it doesn't become any more relevant later in the series, that we should have picked up on it when it first showed up.

 

The deathwatch guards having ravens are not references to Mat having them or becoming property. For that matter we don't even know that the Raven's in Egwene's dreams represent tattoo's. Still I'll clarify the significance of what a raven tattoo is.

Well, we wouldn't know how to interpret Egwene's dream if not for the reference to the tattoos in book 4, so it's quite relevant.  The two clues are dependent on each other, and the tattoos themselves are the 'detail'.

He's the prince of the ravens. I thought that it made it all clear. (Well, besides the fact that we have no clue that Prince of the Ravens actually means, that is).

 

Mat became Prince of the Ravens when he married Tuon, the Daughter of the Nine Moons.  Tuon is now "dead", and Mat is married to Fortuona, the Empress (or just the Nine Moons).  I would imagine Mat's title has changed as well.  King of the Ravens, Star Fox (ha), etc.....

[NetSlider]

The ravens was my idea.  Luckers' comment is wrong though:

 

Only referenced once in books 4-6 (in the dream)' date=' however Tuon jokes often on making him property.  The problem is this doesn’t fit the Big Thing, which is supposed to fade a bit more into the background after book 6. This becomes heightened with Tuon’s joking.[/quote']

It's referenced in book 4 when the raven tattoos are introduced, and again in 6 when Egwene has the dream about Mat.  Also, Brandon didn't say anything about it 'fading into the background'.  He just said that it doesn't become any more relevant later in the series, that we should have picked up on it when it first showed up.

 

The deathwatch guards having ravens are not references to Mat having them or becoming property. For that matter we don't even know that the Raven's in Egwene's dreams represent tattoo's. Still I'll clarify the significance of what a raven tattoo is.

Well, we wouldn't know how to interpret Egwene's dream if not for the reference to the tattoos in book 4, so it's quite relevant.  The two clues are dependent on each other, and the tattoos themselves are the 'detail'.

He's the prince of the ravens. I thought that it made it all clear. (Well, besides the fact that we have no clue that Prince of the Ravens actually means, that is).

 

Mat became Prince of the Ravens when he married Tuon, the Daughter of the Nine Moons.  Tuon is now "dead", and Mat is married to Fortuona, the Empress (or just the Nine Moons).  I would imagine Mat's title has changed as well.  King of the Ravens, Star Fox (ha), etc.....

Good point, it very well might be the case. Star Fox...? I LIKE IT!