The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Nightstrike]

HWCWTD? What's that supposed to mean?

It means that he can actually choose.

From WoTFAQ (  http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/1_dark/1.4_whats-up-dark/1.4.02_slayer.html ):

The second time we see Slayer in WH is his assassination attempt on Rand, in [WH: 22, Out of Thin Air, 447-449]. First we see Isam, in T'A'R, studying his victims-to-be; then: "...he carefully unsheathed the two poisoned daggers and stepped out of the Unseen World into the waking. As he did, he became Luc. It seemed appropriate". Note the last sentence. It was not necessary to become Luc - just appropriate. Further down the page he muses that he had been given "many gifts", though immunity to poison or weapons was not among them. Then he steps back into T'A'R as Luc, and only switches back to Isam after talking to his mystery employer (see section 1.4.4).

 

Well, that blows our previous theory right out of the water. This passage demonstrates that Slayer can appear as either Luc or Isam in the Unseen World; and strongly implies (though does not state) that he can appear as Luc or Isam in the world of the flesh as well (because he was Isam when he murdered Amico and Joiya - see below).

 

[FarShainMael]

HWCWTD? What's that supposed to mean?

 

He Who Comes With The Dawn.

 

 

(aka the milkman.. sorry  :D )

[shadowkiller_001]

HWCWTD? What's that supposed to mean?

 

He Who Comes With The Dawn.

 

 

(aka the milkman.. sorry  :D )

 

haha thanks, I had about 50 things going through my head...

 

[Dredlord]

New to the forum and I have to say, this topic intrigued me.  I have to admit I did not read through the entire 222 pages of posts, but has anybody analyzed the relationship between Rand and Elayne.  It has been referred to many times little bits at a time but if I followed the strings correctly it seems that Rand is Elayn's Half brother's half brother...  There is also something tickling my brain about Lan and Luc seeming to be related.  (Or was it Rand and Lan??)  I seem to remember thinking both at some point in time.  At any rate, the relationship things gonig on here always seemed to me like they should be a little more of a big deal than they seem to be.

[Kaznen]

I admit I too did not want to read through the 222 previous pages.  But I remembered something from LoC that could be link to tSR that I haven't seen discussed before, and was something I wondered about in KoD.

 

In LoC Mat and the Band come across the remains of a group of traveling people.  The last one to die had written "Tell the Dragon Reborn" and seemed to die before he could finish.

 

And I had wondered why Mat didn't say anything to the Seeker in KoD.  This could tie into what Rand saw in Rhudien.  Being the Song the Tinkers are looking for or the Seekers knowing more about their history then believed.

 

And keep in mind the Traveling people have come up with a lot of useful and interesting information in the past.

 

Could the Unnoticed Big Thing be concerning the Traveling People?  they seem to be everywhere these days.

[Dredlord]

Well.. the traveling people ARE the true Aiel, the Jenn Aiel. They never stopped following the way of the leaf, but so many individuals did stop following that eventually the current Aiel simply outnumbered the originals. So If Rand is to lead the Aiel and leave a remnant of a remnant, maybe that is referring to the Traveling people instead?  And could it also be a philosophical remnant, instead of a physical remnant?  Not necessarily leaving just a few scattered Ail around, but by the end the ways of the Aiel will be nothing in relation to what they are now, which could also have to do with the Tinkers.  Also for the Aiel/Tinker relation and how they avoid each other like the plague...  The Aiel sing about everything, always singing.  Maybe they already know the song the Tinkers search for, but since they avoid each other so well, none has ever made the connection.  The last battle will force all people together, and if some of the lost ail are making their way back to the Tinkers to be true to their real heritage, the song could be found.

[Dreamwalker]

New to the forum and I have to say, this topic intrigued me.  I have to admit I did not read through the entire 222 pages of posts, but has anybody analyzed the relationship between Rand and Elayne.  It has been referred to many times little bits at a time but if I followed the strings correctly it seems that Rand is Elayn's Half brother's half brother...  There is also something tickling my brain about Lan and Luc seeming to be related.  (Or was it Rand and Lan??)  I seem to remember thinking both at some point in time.  At any rate, the relationship things gonig on here always seemed to me like they should be a little more of a big deal than they seem to be.

 

You are right, Rand is Elayne's half-brother's (Galad) half-brother. But they are only related through marriages, not blood. Rand and Galad had the same mom, but Galad and Elayne had the same dad. This makes it so that while Galad is blood related to each of them, it is on opposite sides so they are not blood-related to each other (confusing, I know).

 

Isam was the one related to Lan. Luc is Rand's uncle. But now Luc/Isam are merged into one dude, Slayer, so that is also a bit confusing.

[Dredlord]

Ahh ok that's what it was... but aren't Luc and Islam the same person?? So they are all just one big happy family? (by marriage of course)  IT just seems like all that has to mean something, nothing in Randland happens on accident...

 

Also a noob question... what is this Body swap thing?

[Ashaman Kovan]

Ahh ok that's what it was... but aren't Luc and Islam the same person??

Also a noob question... what is this Body swap thing?

 

No, they aren't the same person. They inhabit the same body and are able to change their appearance to one or the other but they are two seperate people. We don't much about Slayer at all, but we know that.

 

I can't find the actual thread for the Body Swap theory but http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,55269.msg1553832.html#msg1553832

 

It's right there in a post.

 

[dgd3]

I've been thinking about this for a few weeks, but haven't the patience to read through this whole thread (and search is STILL broken). So if this has been discussed/decided before, forgive me, but...

 

Is "the big unnoticed thing" the status of THE Dragon banner (LTT's from the AoL)?  Moiraine & co. fished it out of the Eye of the World, then packed if off with Rand throughout tGH and the summoning of the Heroes at Falme, then brought it along following Rand to Tear.  Sometime between tDR and tSR it was put flying atop the Stone, but has since been taken down now that Darlin is reigning as King of Tear.  See http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/dragon_banner.html for details.

 

So where is the original AoL Dragon banner now?  Do the Heroes of the Horn need to follow it at TG, or will any modern copy suffice?  If Mat got his hands on the Horn and Banner, could he use them in some way without Rand?

[Ashaman Kovan]

I've been thinking about this for a few weeks, but haven't the patience to read through this whole thread (and search is STILL broken). So if this has been discussed/decided before, forgive me, but...

 

Is "the big unnoticed thing" the status of THE Dragon banner (LTT's from the AoL)?  Moiraine & co. fished it out of the Eye of the World, then packed if off with Rand throughout tGH and the summoning of the Heroes at Falme, then brought it along following Rand to Tear.  Sometime between tDR and tSR it was put flying atop the Stone, but has since been taken down now that Darlin is reigning as King of Tear.  See http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/dragon_banner.html for details.

 

So where is the original AoL Dragon banner now?  Do the Heroes of the Horn need to follow it at TG, or will any modern copy suffice?  If Mat got his hands on the Horn and Banner, could he use them in some way without Rand?

 

As far as I know the banner has absolutely nothing to do with the Heroes of the horn and how they would perform in battle. I'm pretty sure it's only importance is symbolic.

[Paerish Swar]

I've been thinking about this for a few weeks, but haven't the patience to read through this whole thread (and search is STILL broken). So if this has been discussed/decided before, forgive me, but...

 

Is "the big unnoticed thing" the status of THE Dragon banner (LTT's from the AoL)?  Moiraine & co. fished it out of the Eye of the World, then packed if off with Rand throughout tGH and the summoning of the Heroes at Falme, then brought it along following Rand to Tear.  Sometime between tDR and tSR it was put flying atop the Stone, but has since been taken down now that Darlin is reigning as King of Tear.  See http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/dragon_banner.html for details.

 

So where is the original AoL Dragon banner now?  Do the Heroes of the Horn need to follow it at TG, or will any modern copy suffice?  If Mat got his hands on the Horn and Banner, could he use them in some way without Rand?

 

As far as I know the banner has absolutely nothing to do with the Heroes of the horn and how they would perform in battle. I'm pretty sure it's only importance is symbolic.

 

Actually, there is some evidence that the banner is absolutely necessary for the Heroes to fight.

 

In tGH after Mat blows the Horn, Hawking says to Rand, "Something is wrong here.  Something holds me.  You are here.  Have you the banner?"

 

This brings up two issues:  the necessity of Rand's presence and the necessity of the (or a?) Dragon banner's presence for the Heroes to be able to actually fight.

 

Actually, for me this raises a whole bunch of questions as to how all this Horn of Valere stuff works.  Now that there appears to be a couple of Heroes that have been reborn (other than Rand), will they all have to be together for it to work?  Can the Horn call living Heroes too, or just the ones waiting in TAR?  Is that maybe why Rand needed to be there in the flesh to make it work?  How is baby Gaidal going to be of any use when the Horn is sounded again?  Will he come when the Horn sounds?  Will he magically show up in adult form?

 

Oh, who knows!?

 

As for the BUT, we see the banner way back in books 1,2, and 3 . . . so it can't be the BUT, which we first see sometime in books 4,5, and/or 6 as per Brandon's statement. 

[Ashaman Kovan]

I've been thinking about this for a few weeks, but haven't the patience to read through this whole thread (and search is STILL broken). So if this has been discussed/decided before, forgive me, but...

 

Is "the big unnoticed thing" the status of THE Dragon banner (LTT's from the AoL)?  Moiraine & co. fished it out of the Eye of the World, then packed if off with Rand throughout tGH and the summoning of the Heroes at Falme, then brought it along following Rand to Tear.  Sometime between tDR and tSR it was put flying atop the Stone, but has since been taken down now that Darlin is reigning as King of Tear.  See http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/dragon_banner.html for details.

 

So where is the original AoL Dragon banner now?  Do the Heroes of the Horn need to follow it at TG, or will any modern copy suffice?  If Mat got his hands on the Horn and Banner, could he use them in some way without Rand?

 

As far as I know the banner has absolutely nothing to do with the Heroes of the horn and how they would perform in battle. I'm pretty sure it's only importance is symbolic.

 

Actually, there is some evidence that the banner is absolutely necessary for the Heroes to fight.

 

In tGH after Mat blows the Horn, Hawking says to Rand, "Something is wrong here.  Something holds me.  You are here.  Have you the banner?"

 

This brings up two issues:  the necessity of Rand's presence and the necessity of the (or a?) Dragon banner's presence for the Heroes to be able to actually fight.

 

Actually, for me this raises a whole bunch of questions as to how all this Horn of Valere stuff works.  Now that there appears to be a couple of Heroes that have been reborn (other than Rand), will they all have to be together for it to work?  Can the Horn call living Heroes too, or just the ones waiting in TAR?  Is that maybe why Rand needed to be there in the flesh to make it work?  How is baby Gaidal going to be of any use when the Horn is sounded again?  Will he come when the Horn sounds?  Will he magically show up in adult form?

 

Oh, who knows!?

 

As for the BUT, we see the banner way back in books 1,2, and 3 . . . so it can't be the BUT, which we first see sometime in books 4,5, and/or 6 as per Brandon's statement.   

 

Some evidence that it's absolutely necessary?

Well, in any case, I think you're wrong but I'll let Maj or Luckers or Mr Ares or someone who knows more than I do clear it up.

[Dredlord]

When Hawking states that something is holding him, I thought he was referring to Rand not being the one who sounded the horn.  HE had seemed surprised that somebody else had sounded  it.  The horn sounder must be the one to lead, not the Dragon.  Could be wrong, but I guess this isn't the place for that anyways.

[Paerish Swar]

Some evidence that it's absolutely necessary?

Well, in any case, I think you're wrong but I'll let Maj or Luckers or Mr Ares or someone who knows more than I do clear it up.

 

I probably overstated my case a bit there.

 

Anyway, what do you think would have happened if the banner were not there?

 

(Dramatization)

 

Hawking:  Something is wrong here.  Something holds me.  You are here.  Have you the banner?

 

Rand:      Uh . . . No.  Was I supposed to bring that?

 

Hawking:  Well, technically yes.  But I guess we can do this thing without it just this once.

 

Rand:      Oh, sweet Mr. Hawking.  Thanks for letting it slide this time.  I really appreciate it.

 

Hawking:  Don't mention it.  Just remember to bring it next time.  Hornsounder . . . play us into battle!

 

Enough of that.

 

I'm pretty sure Hawking's statement establishes that the presence of the banner was important for them to be able to fight, whether for just that one time or for every time the Horn is sounded.  Why else would he have mentioned it in the manner that he did?

 

When Hawking states that something is holding him, I thought he was referring to Rand not being the one who sounded the horn.  HE had seemed surprised that somebody else had sounded  it.  The horn sounder must be the one to lead, not the Dragon.  Could be wrong, but I guess this isn't the place for that anyways.

 

I really don't think that was what Hawking meant by his statement.

 

Overall, it's pretty unlikely that the Horn or the banner have anything to do with the BUT.

[deathgate]

Was just watching the new program Life and they had a bit about Kimono Dragons. Made me think of the Dragon and the markings on his arms and the clan chiefs. Like Vin's earring it is on the person, it seems innocuous and just might have another purpose. The flip side is unless Asmodean was unaware of another purpose or didn't do it right he inadvertently created one also.

[Plagueis]

Has someone compiled a list of the things that it may be? I have read through the lists of things that it is not (and that was all of my ideas lol).

[mossman87]

Was just watching the new program Life and they had a bit about Kimono Dragons. Made me think of the Dragon and the markings on his arms and the clan chiefs. Like Vin's earring it is on the person, it seems innocuous and just might have another purpose. The flip side is unless Asmodean was unaware of another purpose or didn't do it right he inadvertently created one also.

 

You think the tattoos mean more than showing the person is the Dragon?  What makes you think that?

[Dead Guy]

Who the hell is Hawking? That guy in a wheel chair?

[JakeBarnes]

 

Some evidence that it's absolutely necessary?

Well, in any case, I think you're wrong but I'll let Maj or Luckers or Mr Ares or someone who knows more than I do clear it up.

 

Artur Hawkwing said that the Heroes are summoned to the horn, but they FOLLOW the Dragon Banner.  No mention of the Dragon himself.  So, based only on his words, if THE Dragon Banner was stolen, or the bad guys had it, bad things could happen.

[deathgate]

 

You think the tattoos mean more than showing the person is the Dragon?  What makes you think that?

 

It seems very similar to Vin's earring. An easily overlooked thing talked about a lot that no one gives any thought to as any thing but what it appears. I don't have any idea what else they could do but it does sort of fit Brandon's comments.

[Dredlord]

If it is the dragon tats, could him losing half of one have bad consequences?  I've been wondering that anyways.  Also another thing about the Aiel.. What's going on with the ones who stayed in the waste?  Just sitting on their thumbs waiting for the world to end?  Maybe something is going on and they will finally join a side.

[Sharaman]

If it is the dragon tats, could him losing half of one have bad consequences?  I've been wondering that anyways.  Also another thing about the Aiel.. What's going on with the ones who stayed in the waste?  Just sitting on their thumbs waiting for the world to end?  Maybe something is going on and they will finally join a side.

 

The Aiel have only left the minimum number of spears in the Waste.

Apart from the Shaido, pretty much everybody there is officially on the Cara'carn's side.

(There may be darkfriends).

 

 

[OneDragon]

Since Brandon said it started in book number 4 and 6, we could rule out alot by thinking of WHERE it happened.

 

Starting with book nr 4 which was mostly about Rand going to the waste Perrin to the Two Rivers and Elane & Co  going to tanchico.

Perhaps in the stone of Tear, since all characters started out there.

 

Since Tanchico and the Two Rivers are places where not much is happening we might have to focus on Stone of tear and Aiel Waste...      (I still don't have a clue what it is)

 

Any1 who read book nr4 more recently have any ideas / comments ?

[Sharaman]

Doesn't help - you'll still have to read the texts with great care and enthusiasm.

Locales are widely dispersed. 

Book 4: Tear, Tanchico, Two Rivers, Waste, White Tower,

Book 5: Waste, Carhein, Caemlyn, Salidar, White Tower, 

All over the countryside of Andor to Salidar for Suian and co.

and also all over the place for Elayne and Nyn

Plus TAR

Book 6: Caemlyn, Carhein, Dumai's Wells, Amador.

All over the countryside for Mat.

Salidar, Ebou Dar, Shayol Ghul, Shadar Logoth.

Plus TAR.