The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Sharaman]

It's not a pun.  It is a legitimate misinterpretation of a dead language.

 

Specifically, it's mistaking the person (Moridin) for the thing (moridin).

 

Same difference as in Asmo's last scene, whatever figure of speech it may be.

 

[FarShainMael]

No. One is a mistake made by characters within the story, a mistake which (if we're right) is of considerable significance later on. The other would be an author's joke.

 

[Sharaman]

My point is that if RJ was unwilling to use this in one context, he may not be willing to use it in another.

It's a nice idea

Here are some thoughts.

First, we're assuming that in the original Finn dialect, the word "Moridin" is being used.

They may have a different word for death. Let's assume they use the same word.

 

If the misinterpretation theory is correct, the statement  "To live, you must die" should be replaced by a corrected statement, which is on the lines of "To live, you must (something with a guy called) Death".

 

Second, we don't know how the Finns "see" the future and "tell" it.

Do they verbally interpret visions? 

For instance, did they see a map of Westland united into a single nation, with two administrative areas coloured together?

Did they see Mat with a woman saying "Bloody Matrim Cauthon is my husband" and somehow know she was the DotNM?

Did they see Rand chatting to a guy who they know is called Moridin?

Did they see him swapping with Moridin?

Did they see him die?

 

If this is it, we have a Finn interpreting a vision into OT dialect, another Finn translating that into common.

The translator might have said "To live, you must (meet) Death" or "To live, you must (embrace) Death" etc.

The absence of the verb is not conclusive.

But it is a discrepancy. 

 

-------------------------------

Second possibility, 

Do the Finns babble like Elaida or Nicola or the damane Lidia?

The questions trigger some automatic babble-circuit.

They don't necessarily understand or even remember what they're saying.

If this is it, you've got a literal translation and the chance of mistranslation by the Finn may be higher.

__________________________________________

 

 

[JakeBarnes]

From Mat's point of view, it seems more like the Finns do not babble.  He understood them without a translator.

I see what your saying though, and I'll admit that this is a stretch.  But it IS one of the best lead-ins to the body swap we have seen. 

 

 

 

 

[Sharaman]

From Mat's point of view, it seems more like the Finns do not babble.  He understood them without a translator.

I see what your saying though, and I'll admit that this is a stretch.  But it IS one of the best lead-ins to the body swap we have seen. 

 

Mat has that throwback Manetheren race-memory that suddenly lets him babble the OT / understand it.

That apart, I meant something else - Elaida/Lidia/ Nicola spout words that come to them from somewhere without actually "seeing" stuff when they're having a fit of the sight. They have no clue what they're saying.

Min and Egwene interpret visions and can describe the visions even when they don't understand what it means. 

I see this sort of conflation of Moridin as an out-of-style device for RJ but that's just an opinion.

 

 

[FarShainMael]

But it's not out-of-style. RJ used exactly this sort of ambiguity on the HoV itself. (I agree the HoV does not refer to Ishydin, before you comment.)

 

[Sharaman]

But it's not out-of-style. RJ used exactly this sort of ambiguity on the HoV itself. (I agree the HoV does not refer to Ishydin, before you comment.)

 

 

How is the HoV inscription ambiguous?

It says "The Grave ( or Death) is no bar to my call" and it calls dead heroes, who respond, so the grave (Death) is indeed no bar to its call.

In the HoV caption, "Death"/ "Grave" are nouns.

In the Finn's statement, the person "Moridin" would be a proper noun while "die" is a verb.

Yeah, I know OT is a complex language. 

 

[FarShainMael]

I'm re-reading TSR ATM, and I'm noticing a few things.. (such as, why was Thom known as the 'Grey Fox'..) One of these items is what happens after Rand, Mat, and Moiraine have been through the Aelfinn gateway. It turns out that the Aelfinn speak what M describes as a 'rather harsh dialect' of the Old Tongue. She and Mat understood it - Mat so much so that he didn't even notice - but Rand needed an interpreter, a 'woman' who talked like 'an old book'. I wonder how accurate that translation was. It was certainly good enough that he was able to use the info to cleanse saidin; but what of the rest? In particular, the rather baffling bit about 'if you would live, you must die'? Perhaps the Aelfinn actually said, 'to live, you must meet Moridin', recalling that moridin translates as 'death'. Or there was some similar mistranslation, of question and/or answer.

 

 

BS has said that Moridin didn't mean anything other than moridin in a book signing/talk. I think it was in baltimore

 

I'm not suggesting that 'moridin' means anything else. I'm suggesting that the Aelfinn may have said 'meet Moridin (the person)', but the interpreter translated this as 'meet death', i.e. 'die'.

 

Moridin = a person, a proper noun.

death = a noun.

 

It was the interpreter, or possibly even Rand himself, who (may have) got it wrong and substituted a verb. I say Rand, because he says she talked like an old book. Recall that he's talking about this some considerable time after the meeting, and he's recounting what he thought they meant.

 

 

[Dreamwalker]

I'm re-reading TSR ATM, and I'm noticing a few things.. (such as, why was Thom known as the 'Grey Fox'..) One of these items is what happens after Rand, Mat, and Moiraine have been through the Aelfinn gateway. It turns out that the Aelfinn speak what M describes as a 'rather harsh dialect' of the Old Tongue. She and Mat understood it - Mat so much so that he didn't even notice - but Rand needed an interpreter, a 'woman' who talked like 'an old book'. I wonder how accurate that translation was. It was certainly good enough that he was able to use the info to cleanse saidin; but what of the rest? In particular, the rather baffling bit about 'if you would live, you must die'? Perhaps the Aelfinn actually said, 'to live, you must meet Moridin', recalling that moridin translates as 'death'. Or there was some similar mistranslation, of question and/or answer.

 

 

BS has said that Moridin didn't mean anything other than moridin in a book signing/talk. I think it was in baltimore

 

I'm not suggesting that 'moridin' means anything else. I'm suggesting that the Aelfinn may have said 'meet Moridin (the person)', but the interpreter translated this as 'meet death', i.e. 'die'.

 

Moridin = a person, a proper noun.

death = a noun.

 

It was the interpreter, or possibly even Rand himself, who (may have) got it wrong and substituted a verb. I say Rand, because he says she talked like an old book. Recall that he's talking about this some considerable time after the meeting, and he's recounting what he thought they meant.

 

 

 

Just my two cents:

 

From a reader's perspective, I'd find it extremely cheesy if the Finn wording is wrong. It took us long enough after the doorway to even find out for sure what the Finns said to Rand (at least two full books later), that to then have that be false strikes me as pretty lame. To me this would be more likely from a literary standpoint if we'd found out what the Finns said to him right out in tSR - but since it was already drawn out before we learned about Rand's answers, fed to us a bit at a time, it would just be jumping the shark to then have one of those be wrong.

 

Especially when this concerns something that's already a central mystery even without being misworded - it doesn't need to be misworded to be mysterious. It would make more sense if it was something that seemed fairly obvious at the time to then go back and have that be misworded - that would add something. This just adds extra convolution to something that really doesn't need any.

[FarShainMael]

The statement 'if you would live, you must die' is pretty mysterious as it is worded. If it does indeed turn out that it should really have been 'if you want to live, you must meet the chap called Moridin', this doesn't deepen the mystery, it solves it.

 

Rand's certainty that he will die at TG has been a central influence on him, his actions, and his attitudes. (And arguably his madness.) That could be one literary reason why it's been done this way.

 

If he discovers there is hope after all, that will be an epiphany to match Dragonmount.

 

Otherwise.. well, wasn't it Guinan who said, 'if a man is convinced he's going to die tomorrow, he'll probably find a way to make it happen'.

[shadowkiller_001]

haha, love the Star Trek reference... that took me a second or two to figure out.

[FarShainMael]

If my memory doesn't deceive me, it was from 'Yesterday's Enterprise', one of my fav episodes!

 

Or was it from the Borg encounter?

 

[bronnt]

If my memory doesn't deceive me, it was from 'Yesterday's Enterprise', one of my fav episodes!

 

Or was it from the Borg encounter?

 

 

Best of Both Worlds, Part I.

 

No, I didn't have to look that up and yes, I'm a nerd.

[NetSlider]

If my memory doesn't deceive me, it was from 'Yesterday's Enterprise', one of my fav episodes!

 

Or was it from the Borg encounter?

 

Wow, and I thought I was a geek :)

[Dreamwalker]

If my memory doesn't deceive me, it was from 'Yesterday's Enterprise', one of my fav episodes!

 

Or was it from the Borg encounter?

 

 

Best of Both Worlds, Part I.

 

No, I didn't have to look that up and yes, I'm a nerd.

 

You are now my hero. TNG rules  8)

[NetSlider]

If my memory doesn't deceive me, it was from 'Yesterday's Enterprise', one of my fav episodes!

 

Or was it from the Borg encounter?

 

 

Best of Both Worlds, Part I.

 

No, I didn't have to look that up and yes, I'm a nerd.

 

You are now my hero. TNG rules  8)

Have to agree here, Dreamwalker and I seem to be amateurs :)

[FarShainMael]

If my memory doesn't deceive me, it was from 'Yesterday's Enterprise', one of my fav episodes!

 

Or was it from the Borg encounter?

 

 

Best of Both Worlds, Part I.

 

No, I didn't have to look that up and yes, I'm a nerd.

 

Yay! Nerds united!  (I had to ask §1 son..)

 

[Demiandre]

I wanted to point out something which I didn't notice mentionned on the topic. Did anyone see in LoC a "discussion" (more a monologue than anything else) between Rand and LTT? added with another fact that happened between book 4-6, it make sense about something.

 

So there is a sentence in which LTT react to something I don't remenber, by saying :

"Demandred! Lews Therin groaned. He wanted Ilyena!".

And there is a trip from Elayne in Tel'Aran'Rhiod, in which she goes to Caemlyn and touch the Rose Throne. Behind a column, Demandred is watching her and saying something about plotting, and strings and so on. Couldn't we assume that one of Demandred's goal is to catch Elayne, who we can presume is (not Dr Livingston) but Ilyena reborn.

[Morsker]

Demandred is insane; he's completely consumed by jealousy of LTT, to the point of monomania. If he wanted Ilyena, it was most likely just because LTT had her. I especially have a hard time seeing Demandred love anyone, since LTT is the only person he cares about, and negatively at that; there's no room in his mind for anything else. So he'd want any girlfriend of Rand's just because she was Rand's girlfriend. She wouldn't have to be Ilyena reborn.

[Demiandre]

One way or another, insane or not, he is spying on Elayne, and by beeing jealous of LTT, he could probably try to compel, hurt, kill, use (bar the wrong item) her in order to reach Rand in any way. And if I remenber correctly, at the end of TGS, Rand guess that Ilyena could be reborn as well, like himself, and why wouldn't we think that someone from the AoL knows that she could be reborn as well as any other Heroes or person from the past. And Demandred is like anybody just human. He can have emotion. He himself says that he would laugh to death the moment LTT/Rand dies. Hatred is just stronger than love/envy/pain or else. If Demandred wanted to hurt Rand or reach him, he would have spied on Min and Aviendha as well, but I don't remember them beeing followed or spied on or else by him. Elayne didn't come out around Rand a lot (in the Stone (TSR) and in Caemlyn (WH)), but Min was with ghim for a long long long time, and Aviendha as well. Why not attack them? It doesn't make sense for me...

 

Anyway, there is something that could be of importance.

 

On another thing, I don't remember where the Ba in Caemlyn were bringing Elayne at the end of KoD. Does anyone remembers?

[Entretamis]

I am little past the half way point in TSR, and i think i came across a few things that coudl be it, not sure if it has been discussed previously or not but ill list them and see what you think:

 

- Eyes watching in TAR, this is a small things but coudl it mean something in the future?

 

- Rands flame sword.  How does it hold it, i thought you cant be touched by your own waves.  Could Rand make a sword of "Light" (fire and air) and use this at the LB. he is liked with 2 more people creates a HUGE sword and when the DO comes out he stabbs...hehe...i know is far fetched but is a small thing that could mean something more.

 

-Slayer. in the real world he is Luc, in apprearance, in TAR he is Isam (lans cousin) we know he is in TAR in the flesh (ty hopper) could this mean anything

 

-the Aile split first from the dedicated and the lost ones, then the modern aile split from the Jenn.  HWCWTD is supposed to destroy to preserve, could it be that the aile who run in shame are the aile that are saved? they eventually take back to the way of the leaf and bang the Jenn are created again. and also once the dragon for memories lost, twice the dragon for the price he must pay, could this price be something we did not think about?

[JakeBarnes]

 

-Slayer. in the real world he is Luc, in apprearance, in TAR he is Isam (lans cousin) we know he is in TAR in the flesh (ty hopper) could this mean anything

 

 

Slayer can take the appearance of Luc or Isam at will. 

[Tom Sawyer]

 

Slayer can take the appearance of Luc or Isam at will. 

 

I don't think this is the case.  I think he switches back and forth between the personalities, but in appearance, he's always Luc in the real world and Isam in the dream world.

[Nightstrike]

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

Slayer just chooses who he will be when he steps into or out of Tel’aran’rhiod.  The stepping in and out is part of the mechanism for his change.  He couldn’t do it in the middle of a street, say, not without the stepping in or out.  Which might be a little noticeable, since he would vanish from sight for a perceptible time.

 

[shadowkiller_001]

HWCWTD? What's that supposed to mean?