The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[lillcheese]

Yes, Egwene asks Rand about Travel, realises the Saidin method won't work for her and figures out from her experiments with TAR (the method she used to get to Salidar), how she can Travel with the Saidar method.

She demonstrates this mode of Travel to Moggy, who is trying to avoid giving the weave to Elayne-Nyn.

 

Actually, she asks Moggy about what would happen if she tried what Rand does and Moggy was terrified by the idea. I think there was something about it sucking the woman who tried it out of the pattern.

[Sharaman]

Yes, Egwene asks Rand about Travel, realises the Saidin method won't work for her and figures out from her experiments with TAR (the method she used to get to Salidar), how she can Travel with the Saidar method.

She demonstrates this mode of Travel to Moggy, who is trying to avoid giving the weave to Elayne-Nyn.

 

Actually, she asks Moggy about what would happen if she tried what Rand does and Moggy was terrified by the idea. I think there was something about it sucking the woman who tried it out of the pattern.

 

Yes but Egwene had already worked out that Rand's method wouldn't work for her before she asked Moggy for confirmation.

 

[lammbo]

Yes, Egwene asks Rand about Travel, realises the Saidin method won't work for her and figures out from her experiments with TAR (the method she used to get to Salidar), how she can Travel with the Saidar method.

She demonstrates this mode of Travel to Moggy, who is trying to avoid giving the weave to Elayne-Nyn.

 

Actually, she asks Moggy about what would happen if she tried what Rand does and Moggy was terrified by the idea. I think there was something about it sucking the woman who tried it out of the pattern.

Yes but Egwene had already worked out that Rand's method wouldn't work for her before she asked Moggy for confirmation.

 

Correct.  Not only that, she had already worked out the weave as she demonstrated right then when asking Mog about it. (just finished listening to this one for the ???'th time)

[porus]

just thought of this...if you travelled incorrectly and squished yourself out of the pattern would you be dead or could you go find the DO and battle him?

[rubbernilly]

When were vacuoles first mentioned?

 

I have postulated elsewhere that this could be a way for this to be a final time for the DO having access to the wheel (giving us something of a true ending to the story... not just this incarnation of it). The idea involved Shaidar Haran, Fain, a vacuole, 2 bushels of yak hair, and 12 pounds of cottage cheese.

 

...well, the cottage cheese and yak hair weren't necessary.

 

I won't go into the idea here, this isn't the place. I'll just say that if a vacuole played into the final confrontation with the DO, it would make sense that this could be the BcUT.

[Dreamwalker]

When were vacuoles first mentioned?

 

I have postulated elsewhere that this could be a way for this to be a final time for the DO having access to the wheel (giving us something of a true ending to the story... not just this incarnation of it). The idea involved Shaidar Haran, Fain, a vacuole, 2 bushels of yak hair, and 12 pounds of cottage cheese.

 

...well, the cottage cheese and yak hair weren't necessary.

 

I won't go into the idea here, this isn't the place. I'll just say that if a vacuole played into the final confrontation with the DO, it would make sense that this could be the BcUT.

 

First explicit mention of vacuoles is in ACoS CH. 25, so too late to be the BUT. However, I don't know whether or not we'd seen one before that and just not known it was called a vacuole until ACoS - would have to do some more fact-checking.

[Dhaell]

Well, having read this entire thread thus far (I sh*t you not) and from my nagging feelings having read the series over the years, there's two things that keep coming back to me as being possibilities and, thanks to this thread, I've a crackpot theory too!  ;D

 

Now, I know these two thoughts should be precluded by the "Theoryland List" and have likely been discussed ad-nausea but I can't shake them.

 

 

Thought the First - The Twisted Red Doorways.

 

Yes, I know - done to death but the thing that has ALWAYS bugged me is when Rand, Mat and Moiraine are all in Aelfinnland (TSR, Ch 15) they never see each other yet they all exit within a short space of time.  How come?  Do the Finns create a new 'reality' for each person that enters?  Insofar that they have singular and seperate experiences at the same time they are in the same place?  And these places would somehow have to be linked due to the "strain" part.  Gah!  Mashes my head to a pulp this one. 

 

Anyhoo, the point being that when Moiraine and Lanfear fall through the Rhuidean doorway, are they also seperated as we saw in the Tear doorway?  What bearing would this have?  Moiraine sits there all Zen, refusing to play the Finn's games and waiting to be rescued while Lanny goes bat-shit crazy and is killed for it?  I suppose we'll find out come autumn.

 

 

Thought the Second - Mat's Foxhead Medallion

 

Yes, I know, discussed to death.  However, it constantly occurs to me that Elayne could make many copies of the medallion, and they could be handed out to Rand's army/channelers/etc.  I know that weaves evaporate when directed toward the wearer of the medallion but I'm pretty sure we've no knowledge of what happens if a channeler wears one?  Very cool if you could throw weaves at a Dreadlord and be protected from direct a retaliation of weaves.

 

 

Having read the Mistborn trilogy, these are the things that strike me to be most akin to an earring-type-thingumybob.

 

 

Loony Theory - Min/Finn

 

It's Dida's fault for posting the below quote:

 

Source: The Shadow Rising book - Chapter 15 "Into the Doorway" - Mat pov within the Aelfinn realm, via the twisted doorway in the Stone of Tear

 

If Mat had thought his skin crawled before, now he was sure it was writhing. He made himself go closer. Carefully—careful to say nothing that even sounded like a question—he laid the situation before them. The Whitecloaks, certainly in his home village, surely hunting friends of his, maybe hunting him. One of his friends going to face the Whitecloaks, another not. His family, not likely in danger, but with the bloody Children of the bloody Light around . . . A ta’veren pulling at him so he could hardly move. He saw no reason to give names, or mention that Rand was the Dragon Reborn. His first question—and the other two, for that matter—he had worked out before going down to the Great Hold. “Should I go home to help my people?” he asked finally.

 

Three sets of slitted eyes lifted from him—reluctantly, it seemed—and studied the air above his head. Finally the woman on the left said, “You must go to Rhuidean.”

 

Go on, tell me that doesn't sound just a little bit like Min's ability?  Studied the air above his head??  :o  Bloody brilliant!!!  What if this is somehow related?  I'd love it to be.  Love it.  ;) 

 

Anyway, I told you it was loony.

 

 

Well, apologies for length if not the content.  Let me know how I'm insanely wide of the mark at your leisure.  Cheers.  ;D

 

PS, it is a bloody good hat.

[Paerish Swar]

Thought the Second - Mat's Foxhead Medallion

 

Yes, I know, discussed to death.  However, it constantly occurs to me that Elayne could make many copies of the medallion, and they could be handed out to Rand's army/channelers/etc.  I know that weaves evaporate when directed toward the wearer of the medallion but I'm pretty sure we've no knowledge of what happens if a channeler wears one?  Very cool if you could throw weaves at a Dreadlord and be protected from direct a retaliation of weaves.

 

I believe Nynaeve and Cadsuane each have a ter'angreal like Mat's foxhead.  That's why when Alivia dueled Cyndane (while she was wearing Nynaeve's collection of ter'angreal), Cyndane's weave just "evaporated" once it got close to Alivia.

[rane008]

Personally, I'm throwing my money behind the Blight being so quiet.  It's been mentioned tons of times, and AFAIK, the reason has never been given.  

[Som1else]

if its the blight then i bet all the trollocs and shado spawn are assembling at shayo ghul and are gunna make the forces of light come 2 them to fight

[Dhaell]

Personally, I'm throwing my money behind the Blight being so quiet.  It's been mentioned tons of times, and AFAIK, the reason has never been given.  

 

if its the blight then i bet all the trollocs and shado spawn are assembling at shayo ghul and are gunna make the forces of light come 2 them to fight

 

The Blight's retreat started in EotW so it's not likely to be that.

 

 

I believe Nynaeve and Cadsuane each have a ter'angreal like Mat's foxhead.  That's why when Alivia dueled Cyndane (while she was wearing Nynaeve's collection of ter'angreal), Cyndane's weave just "evaporated" once it got close to Alivia.

 

Wow.  I've missed that every time.  I love these bloody books.  ;D

[rane008]

I don't think the Blight started retreating in EOTW.  In fact, I thought it was spreading out during that time, but was pushed back by the victory at Tarwin's Gap.  It wasn't mentioned, though, until the later books (post-TDR, I believe).  I may be wrong, though.

[Dhaell]

I don't think the Blight started retreating in EOTW.  In fact, I thought it was spreading out during that time, but was pushed back by the victory at Tarwin's Gap.  It wasn't mentioned, though, until the later books (post-TDR, I believe).  I may be wrong, though.

 

There's the quote from EotW earlier in this thread where it shows the Blight has retreated thanks to the actions of our heroes.

[NetSlider]

I believe Nynaeve and Cadsuane each have a ter'angreal like Mat's foxhead.  That's why when Alivia dueled Cyndane (while she was wearing Nynaeve's collection of ter'angreal), Cyndane's weave just "evaporated" once it got close to Alivia.

 

Wow.  I've missed that every time.  I love these bloody books.   ;D

 

I made that connection before, but I never really realized that Ellena can actually study the foxhead (she was concerned that if weaves can not touch the thing. but it seems is she wears it she can still channel therefore there has to be a loop hall). Of topic, of course.

In anyway, the more this discussion progresses the more I have to lean towards "the headbands" theory. Seems to fit all the requirements (not my favorite theory; Seanchen armor and AoL armor I think would be a lot more cooler and "Ahhhaa!" moment, but the headbands definitely fit the time line).

 

Out of the curiosity, here is a little trivia question (just wanna see how many people know this from the top of their heads without looking up in enc.) - how old was Berelain when she became the queen of Mayene and how many "bed partners" did she have until now? (I know, i know, of topic again :))

[Luckers]

I made that connection before, but I never really realized that Ellena can actually study the foxhead (she was concerned that if weaves can not touch the thing. but it seems is she wears it she can still channel therefore there has to be a loop hall).

 

Who is Ellena?

 

Quote from: Paerish Swar on March 10, 2010, 05:20:09 PM

I believe Nynaeve and Cadsuane each have a ter'angreal like Mat's foxhead.  That's why when Alivia dueled Cyndane (while she was wearing Nynaeve's collection of ter'angreal), Cyndane's weave just "evaporated" once it got close to Alivia.

 

 

Wow.  I've missed that every time.  I love these bloody books.

 

If it helps, here's my list of their respective ter'angreal and what they do.

 

Cadsuane’s and Nynaeve’s ter’angreal

 

Cadsuane’s

 

1. First Star - Vibrates when a man who can channel is nearby.

2. Hummingbird - Is a Well

3. Swallow - Detects channeling and indicates direction of channeler. Does not detect cross-gender links.

4. Shrike - Angreal

5. First Fish - Possibly breaks a distant weave (the way she took out Semirhage)**

6. Second Fish - Use Unknown to Cadsuane.

7. Third Fish - Use Unknown to Cadsuane.

8. Two intertwined Moons - breaks direct weaves (like Mat's).

9. A Crescent Moon - Use Unknown to Cadsuane.

10. Unmentioned Star - (The stars were mentioned in plural) Possibly breaks a distant weave (the way she took out Semirhage)**

 

These are all that have been listed or implied, though there may still be more.

 

**It's unknown which ter'angreal allowed her to break Semirhage’s disguise though my money is on the Fish because Cadsuane states that she doesn't know the use of 'two of her fish' suggesting she knows the use of the third. Still, its uncertain.

 

Nynaeve’s

 

1. Rings and Bracelet - Angreal

2. Long Necklace with Rubies - Use Unknown**

3. Belt with Rubies - A Well for Saidar.

4. Bracelet with Rubies - Covers the user with Armour made from Air.

5. First Bracelet with Emeralds - Use Unknown**

6. Second Bracelet with Emeralds - Use Unknown**

7. First Ring with Green Stones (one single stone) - Detects channeling as much as three miles away, and vibrates differently for saidin or saidar (note: If the person has their weaves inverted then apparently the ring can't tell the difference between saidin and saidar).

8. Second Ring with Green Stones - Use Unknown**

9. First Ring with Saphires (one single saphire) - Goes cold when someone nearby is feeling hostile or angry.

10. Second Ring with Saphires - Use Unknown**

 

Unlike Cadsuane we know this to be every piece in Nynaeve's collection.

 

**One of the unknown ter'angreal breaks direct weaves, like Mat's medallion.

 

 

[Aquarius]

Who is Ellena?

I believe he means Elayne

[Luckers]

Who is Ellena?

I believe he means Elayne

 

That doesn't really explain it. What is a 'loop hall'? When, precisely can Elayne study the Foxhead? And she is concerned that if the weaves cannot touch the Foxhead something else is a problem--what is her resultant, implied, concern?

[Aquarius]

Who is Ellena?

I believe he means Elayne

 

That doesn't really explain it. What is a 'loop hall'? When, precisely can Elayne study the Foxhead? And she is concerned that if the weaves cannot touch the Foxhead something else is a problem--what is her resultant, implied, concern?

I believe he's confusing a few things that happended in Ebou Dar. According to NetSlider Elayna had some time to study the Foxhead in Ebou Dar ?? And was still able to channell when she was wearing it ??

I'm not so sure about all that. There's probably some misunderstanding involved here.

[NetSlider]

Ok, I think clarification is due.

 

I meant that Elayne was concerned that she won't be able to study the foxhead because power can not touch it. She was afraid that because power can not touch it she won't be able to channel while waring the thing. But she actually never studied it though (the only time Mat offered the foxhead to her was before they went to find the Bowl of Winds, to the best of my recollection).

 

Sorry for the confusion.

[Dida]

When, precisely can Elayne study the Foxhead?

 

  During Mat's forced 30 day stay in Caemlyn in 'Towers of Midnight', that is if Elayne can channel a weave and/or visit the TAR to study that Fox-eye medallion? 

 

  There's always the far outside chance, one of the Kin at Setalle Anan's & Elayne's direction could study the Fox-eye medallion in Caemlyn.  ((Setalle Anan's cover should be completely blown by the end of ToM book, Verin Sedai should have remembered her among other people.))

 

 

[Luckers]

During Mat's forced 30 day stay in Caemlyn in 'Towers of Midnight', that is if Elayne can channel a weave and/or visit the TAR to study that Fox-eye medallion?

 

She won't be able to channel reliably enough for that--but I am looking forward to interactions between her and Mat.

 

Quote from: Dreamwalker on March 09, 2010, 09:28:54 PM

Quote from: porus on March 09, 2010, 09:03:29 PM

IMO the more intriguing question in regards 3rd-agers knowing AoL weaves is Moraine. This can't be the BUT because it's from TEoTW but we still don't know how she learned balefire. That is a question I would like answered even more than who killed Asmo.

 

 

I suspect she learned it from Adeleas and Vandene, or at least from some of the manuscripts she studies when she visits them. She doesn't use balefire until after her visit with them, but that's not very definitive proof at all, so mostly it's just a hunch. 

 

 

I suspect Vandene taught her after the incident with the Draghkar.  It's confirmed that balefire is a secret weave of the Green Ajah-all Ajahs have them.  That's how Cadsuane knows what balefire is when she sees Rand use it in ACoS.

 

I feel confident that's how it happened, though Moiraine might have needed to do some art twisting.

 

Balefire is not a secret weave of the Green Ajah--we know this as a fact, as the two blacks who went out of their way to use the balefire rod ter'angreal were Green. Why risk using something so inherently dangerous when one can simply weave the weave yourself?

 

Cadsuane knows what balefire is, as do all Aes Sedai. It is forbidden to them, but they know its nature and recognise it when they see it.

 

My guess is Moiraine found a description of making it in one of Vandene's and Adeleas' books, and worked out how to do it from that description much like how Egwene figured out how to make cuendillar from Moghedian's loose description.

 

Either way this is book three stuff--so it's not the big unknown thing.

 

Go on, tell me that doesn't sound just a little bit like Min's ability?  Studied the air above his head??    Bloody brilliant!!!  What if this is somehow related?  I'd love it to be.  Love it.

 

RJ said that despite similarities in the description and function Min and the Finn's abilities are completely unrelated.

 

 

[Hadilmir]

*Nevermind, should've read the quote that Brandon describes this as an event.

[Orderofolde]

I think that I found something kicking back listening to Fires of Heaven on Audiobook.  I think Uno is Gaidal Caine.  There is a moment when the girls are fleeing the riots and both the Prophet and Whitecloaks siezed the ship they needed.  Brigitte smiled at Uno, there was enough there to write the scene, and since she was ripped from TAR, and since he is ALWAYS born before her, then the Wheel had to make some adjustments, hence providing Gaidal prior to her being riped out.  Birgette is the one worried that things will be messed up, we don't know that for fact.  I also think that Uno is not a "Pretty" man, not described as hideous, but certainly with that one eye of his and the patch, certainly a candidate.  Certainly a big shocker.

 

As to the Blight...it is retreating, Rand and others have killed tens, hundreds of thousands of Trollocks.  More were lost to the Black Wind (Machin Shin?) in the Ways.  Still more on a few occasions within Shadar Logoth.  Aside from the Dark One's ability to bring back most of the Forsaken when they die, the Trollocks aren't easily replaced.  There is another scene showing the forgers of Thakandar, mentions of raids bringing fewer back to kill to imbue the Myrdraal's swords with their dark powers, of their swords wearing out faster than could be replaced (at least my take on it from what I recall.)  Also the Dark One's taint cleansed from the source.  Lots of indicators that the Forces of Darkness are not as well off as they could be, not with Forsaken scrambling for Angreal and hungry for S'Angreal.  Something is going on there.

 

[Sharaman]

I think that I found something kicking back listening to Fires of Heaven on Audiobook.  I think Uno is Gaidal Caine.  There is a moment when the girls are fleeing the riots and both the Prophet and Whitecloaks siezed the ship they needed.  Brigitte smiled at Uno, there was enough there to write the scene, and since she was ripped from TAR, and since he is ALWAYS born before her, then the Wheel had to make some adjustments, hence providing Gaidal prior to her being riped out.  Birgette is the one worried that things will be messed up, we don't know that for fact.  I also think that Uno is not a "Pretty" man, not described as hideous, but certainly with that one eye of his and the patch, certainly a candidate.  Certainly a big shocker.

 

Time doesn't run backwards in TAR though it can run slower or faster. Uno is a grown man. Gaidal-reborn would be a baby since he was in TAR until very recently. It;s the same reason why Olver cannot be Gaidal - he's too old.

 

There's an RJ quote about this which I can't be bothered to look up - no doubt someone else can find it.

 

[Orderofolde]

Here's the thing that I was trying to explain, put into other words.  There's a lot of talk about the Wheel spinning out what it needs.  Abilities and the like when it needs them, no special things when it doesn't, that sort of thing.  We know there are laws/rules for those awaiting rebirth in TAR, but we only know one or two; that the old heroes are not supposed to show themselves, and that they aren't supposed to talk to them.  From what I remember of the times Birgitte helped, some of the things she said about seeing Mog and the others, things like they always spy on one another, TAR might be a part of something or some such link to where the Forsaken were trapped when the bore sealed, what with time moving faster or slower.  The first two Forsaken time hadn't been kind to, and iirc, Rand chased one probably through TAR for a short span with seeing the Battle at Tarwin's Gap the way he did, appearing in the sky over Falme later or some part closely related.

 

I am just thinking that the Wheel might possibly imbue a soul to another's body, making what it must with what it has to work with.  If not making him Gaidal Caine, then making him his replacement as GC spun out and born would be too young to do anything, the Wheel shifts and adjusts to what Mog did expelling Birgitte as she did.  The Dark One can do it, why not the Wheel or the Creator?  If you think the Wheel is too kind to do such a thing, look at poor Rand, spun out to be this great force, facing a terribly alluded to ending, the entire purpose of life is to be a weapon with the hopes enough Humanity and compassion he has absirbed to not destroy the whole world.(We also have it from the Hero's mouth that the pattern adds numbers to its rank of heroes linked to the horn.) 

 

We are a little too focused on rules and what can happen and who could have done it, I think that we've moved away from what is most important, especially to writers.  Some of the magic of the books we ourselves provide with our imagination, and true, rules guide it, but it is in the possibilities of what is still to come, the anticipation of the conclusion and if our thoughts are right, and the acceptance of what did not perceive or pick up on in the conclusion OR the progression that makes a really good story.