Verin (Full Book Spoilers)

[Blackhoof]

True, but would that mean that Verin would have broken her oath? What would have happened to her?

[wingedearth]

When exactly did Verin join the Black Ajah? Was it before Eye of the World? After Dragon Reborn? I'm re-reading Book 3 now (and just re-read books 1-2) and wondering if the Verin I read about is a darkfriend or not, yet. With her access to the three boys from Emond's Field, as well as Egwene and Nynaeve, you'd think the Dark One would make more use of her, if she's already Black Ajah.

[Anoxanmore]

Sadly Verin, or not so sadly, was BA for over 70 yrs.

[Dakota]

True, but would that mean that Verin would have broken her oath? What would have happened to her?

I would imagine nothing would happen.  I can't see the makers of the Oath Rods back in the Age of Legends fashioning them so that a person would choke and strangle to death if through no fault of their own they inadvertantly broke an oath.

 

The AS have spent a few thousand years vehemently denying the existance of the Black Ajah, because they believed it.  Now that they know this isn't true, I doubt that all of them are going to keel over dead because they told a lie and didn't know it.

 

It's even said that an AS can tell a lie if she believes it's true.  Verin could betray the Black Ajah if she really thought it was her last hour of life.

[Vulgir]

Slightly off-topic, but at one point toward the beginning of Path of Daggers (I think) there is a scene where Verin is doing her slight compulsion on the Tower ambasadors who tried to kidnap Rand.  During this passage, Verin makes "an even deeper bow" to one of the wise ones who was present.  I'm not saying that I think this wise one is a darkfriend but, given the events of TGS, shouldn't we start looking back through all of Verin's appearances to find odd occurances such as this?

 

With all the talk of Aeil darkfriends from the Big unoticed thing something from what  you posted sparked something in my mind

 

Colinda

 

i think this is the one that Verin bows to as she is in charge of the prisoners

 

1. Katrine escapes by poisoning people, who gave her the poison?

2.    *  Min has a viewing of Colinda - I saw - No. No, it doesn't have anything to do with you. (Rand) Maybe the heat is affecting me. When I know, I always know. It must be the heat. Was this viewing ever commented on in other places?

3. Moggy knows of Rands plan to Attack Rahvin and seemingly the onlyway for this to happen in the time alloted would be through TAR or traveling.

 

This just came to me, when i thought about it, maybe that should be looked more into...

 

 

[somathus]

 

I figure she was referring to the process of swearing oaths to the DO.  She refers to it as a "distinctive" process and wasn't sure if the Oath Rod could even remove them.

 

I'm thinking so as well, but then why Verin in particular.  Not every BA we've seen has gray hair.

 

I would think the process is particularly nasty, perhaps involving the death on an innocent.  To the average person swearing to the DO, this would be unsettling at worst.  This event witnessed first hand by a good person would be absolutely horrifying.  idk, that is all I could come up with.

[Jagen Sedai]

I think nothing moved me more than the chapter with Verin. It was brilliant in more ways that I can describe with words. Am I the only one who actually teared up reading her death? I've always loved Verin as a character and, similar to what someone else said, this certainly reinforced it.

 

But, I still have one unanswered question. Why did Verin always do that thing where she would cock her head to the side as if listening to something that wasn't there? Was this ever explained? Because I still don't get it. (I am thinking of Verin, right?)

 

Also, what's this "the Lie" that everyone keeps talking about? I probably read this a million years ago so I forgot now :P

[Blackhoof]

The Lie was in the second book, when Verin joins the horn-hunter group led by ingtar and says "Moiraine sent me", but later Moiraine denies sending her. Personally, i think that it wasn't a lie, really; when she first met with Moiraine and suian and revealed that she knew one of the ta'veren could channel, didn't she get their permission to be part of the group, or watch over them, or something? That could be interpreted as being "sent" to help.  :-\

[MauricXe]

I think nothing moved me more than the chapter with Verin. It was brilliant in more ways that I can describe with words. Am I the only one who actually teared up reading her death?

 

No!

 

This had to be one of the few times I have ever felt sorrow for a character.  Verin had the best death ever!!!

[CUBAREY]

But, I still have one unanswered question. Why did Verin always do that thing where she would cock her head to the side as if listening to something that wasn't there? Was this ever explained? Because I still don't get it. (I am thinking of Verin, right?)

 

It was part of the "BROWNNWSS". Part of being a distracted librerian at heart.

[Sharaman]

RJ must have based her physical characteristics and mannerisms on somebody he knew (maybe a mix of several somebodies). So, he knew a librarian/ school teacher/ insert lady who had some influence on him, who had a habit of cocking her head. Don't think it has a specific bearing on the plot as in Verin doesn't hear voices from the AoL or receive instructions from GLoD.

[WolfDragonFox]

But, I still have one unanswered question. Why did Verin always do that thing where she would cock her head to the side as if listening to something that wasn't there? Was this ever explained? Because I still don't get it. (I am thinking of Verin, right?)

 

It was part of the "BROWNNWSS". Part of being a distracted librerian at heart.

 

I will Expand upon this further in light of all we know of Verin now.  She always did this when people were around to see, so I don't believe it was a tick so much as a perfectly placed distraction to others by making them think she was just one of those lost in thought Browns when really she was listening to everything.  Makes her even more of a badass IMO.  

 

I also want to share a little something I think might come out in Verin's encrypted notes, though it may not depending on how useful it could possibly be now, but remember when Verin gave Egwene the dream Ter'angreal, but held back the notes of Corianin Nedeal.  I think those notes will be in there when it is fully deciphered, or at least important parts that Verin was unsure about giving away at the time.  Now we know why she might have decided not to do so, maybe it could have been a breach of oath because something in those TAR notes is a betrayal of the DO to give up.

[Sharaman]

Some Mysterious Verinisms.

 

1) About 70 years ago she made her last serious mistake. (TPOD) That maybe when she was forced to join the BA. But we don't know for sure. She may have made a serious mistake earlier that pushed her into the BA's ranks. In that case, she made at least two serious mistakes.

 

2) She was originally from Far Madding, nearly married Edwyn (which is why she doesn't mind being called Edwyna) and has to conceal her ID when she goes back there since there's a live warrant for arrest against her. This is not referenced by two other FM sisters we know of, namely Cadsuane, and Romanda. We don't know what she did.

 

3) She received a wound, apparently in TAR, that didn't receive prompt healing and left a scar. What was she doing that she couldn't ask another sister for healing? Does it have a connection with either Coreanin's Ter'angreals Or Martine Janata's burnout, maybe both?

 

4) She bonded an ex-DF who was elderly, so bonded a long time ago. She was so hellbent on getting her info out, that she was willing to let Tomas be collateral damage - the convo with Egwene makes it look likely that he is dead as well ("Spending his last hour with family"). In any case, unless she let the bond go, and there's no sign of that, he's going to die of warder rage. So getting her info out is terribly high priority - killing herself is one thing, killing her warder as well is even more awesome, given what we know of warder-AS links. While Verin is ruthless, there's no sign that she's unnecessarily ruthless. So there's a time element that features here.

 

5) About the time element: Something about Logain's arrival at the mansion in Tear, or the Trolloc Raid that follows, or some signs that she has referenced about "TG is coming", forced her hand. It became so imperative that she wasn't willing to wait even another day to find the OR when she reached the Tower or look for some other loophole around the oath. Since Verin is extremely smart and logical and not consumed by death-wish, this must have been something very important. We don't know what. 

 

Wonder how much of this info will ever be revealed.

 

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

5) About the time element: Something about Logain's arrival at the mansion in Tear, or the Trolloc Raid that follows, or some signs that she has referenced about "TG is coming", forced her hand. It became so imperative that she wasn't willing to wait even another day to find the OR when she reached the Tower or look for some other loophole around the oath. Since Verin is extremely smart and logical and not consumed by death-wish, this must have been something very important. We don't know what. 

 

The notion of time frame didn't even occur to me when I was responding to another thread, but it occurs to me that discovering Mesaana's identity in the Tower would be a key reason to kill herself quickly. As a spy, she runs a terrible risk of discovery, and the chance of decades of lost work ferreting out BA. A chance discovery of Mesaana's identity would mean all of that work is complete. She can't do anything more until she's dead, and the longer she's alive the greater the chance the information becomes obsolete or she get's caught, which makes her first priority getting back to the Tower and imparting the information to someone who will be able to do something about it. Egwene's influence in the Tower made her a natural choice.

 

A little reasoning tells her that if she gives Egwene the identity and the BA, the reflex will be for her to try to get Mesaana... but the 50+ BAs out there are as great a threat. So she gives Egwene the codes with the BA identities deciphered, but includes a second cipher that reveals Mesaana's identity as well, expecting Egwene's investigation to lead to it naturally.

 

I'm thinking that in 'Towers of Midnight', Egwene will unlock the Nalasia Merhan/M.Al Saine Haran cipher through recognition of the name mispelling and have her executed before TG.

 

That's my theory, anyway.

[thewalrus777]

 

I figure she was referring to the process of swearing oaths to the DO.  She refers to it as a "distinctive" process and wasn't sure if the Oath Rod could even remove them.

 

I'm thinking so as well, but then why Verin in particular.  Not every BA we've seen has gray hair.

 

I would think the process is particularly nasty, perhaps involving the death on an innocent.  To the average person swearing to the DO, this would be unsettling at worst.  This event witnessed first hand by a good person would be absolutely horrifying.  idk, that is all I could come up with.

 

 

 

I would think anything regarding swearing fealty to the DO would be an extremely nasty process. I also really don't believe that the OR would have been able to remove those oaths and ties to the DO. It didn't break those ties of the BA when they were being hunted. It just merely overrode what they were instructed to do. I think it would take something far more powerful to remove that oath to the DO. Rand has severed ties of the Forsaken to the DO on a couple different occasions. I don't think the oath rod can remove a sworn fealty to something that powerful. It's different when it involves simple things such as saying you'll not make weapons for man, you can't use the power, except in defense of yourself or warder, etc. We are talking about making a pact with what is essentially pure evil. Big diffence.

[Sharaman]

Verin explicitly says she couldn't nail Messi from the couple of meetings she has had. In fact, she isn't even 100%  that Chosen in the Tower is Messi.

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

Verin explicitly says she couldn't nail Messi from the couple of meetings she has had. In fact, she isn't even 100%  that Chosen in the Tower is Messi.

 

She's also Black Ajah, and able to lie. With good reason to do so, taking into consideration what I mentioned before about the inclination to take out Mesaana first rather than the BA.

[Sharaman]

Verin explicitly says she couldn't nail Messi from the couple of meetings she has had. In fact, she isn't even 100%  that Chosen in the Tower is Messi.

 

She's also Black Ajah, and able to lie. With good reason to do so, taking into consideration what I mentioned before about the inclination to take out Mesaana first rather than the BA.

Huh? Explain the good reason.

[Luckers]

Verin explicitly says she couldn't nail Messi from the couple of meetings she has had. In fact, she isn't even 100%  that Chosen in the Tower is Messi.

 

 

She is in fact 100% that the Chosen in the Tower is Mesaana.

 

"One of the Chosen is in the Tower, child. It's Mesaana, I'm certain of it."

 

[tGS; 39, A Visit From Verin Sedai]

[Sharaman]

She has deduced it and is sure of her deduction but she has no direct proof. Unlike Alvi to whom Messi introduced herself, Verin's statement is phrased in a way that says she is guessing with a high degree of internal certainty.

[Sharaman]

5) About the time element: Something about Logain's arrival at the mansion in Tear, or the Trolloc Raid that follows, or some signs that she has referenced about "TG is coming", forced her hand. It became so imperative that she wasn't willing to wait even another day to find the OR when she reached the Tower or look for some other loophole around the oath. Since Verin is extremely smart and logical and not consumed by death-wish, this must have been something very important. We don't know what. 

 

The notion of time frame didn't even occur to me when I was responding to another thread, but it occurs to me that discovering Mesaana's identity in the Tower would be a key reason to kill herself quickly. As a spy, she runs a terrible risk of discovery, and the chance of decades of lost work ferreting out BA. A chance discovery of Mesaana's identity would mean all of that work is complete. She can't do anything more until she's dead, and the longer she's alive the greater the chance the information becomes obsolete or she get's caught, which makes her first priority getting back to the Tower and imparting the information to someone who will be able to do something about it. Egwene's influence in the Tower made her a natural choice.

 

A little reasoning tells her that if she gives Egwene the identity and the BA, the reflex will be for her to try to get Mesaana... but the 50+ BAs out there are as great a threat. So she gives Egwene the codes with the BA identities deciphered, but includes a second cipher that reveals Mesaana's identity as well, expecting Egwene's investigation to lead to it naturally.

 

I'm thinking that in 'Towers of Midnight', Egwene will unlock the Nalasia Merhan/M.Al Saine Haran cipher through recognition of the name mispelling and have her executed before TG.

 

That's my theory, anyway.

Given the range of the Verin-Egwene conversation and the fact that she was killing herself, why would she not say "X is Messaana?"

 

[Luckers]

She has deduced it and is sure of her deduction but she has no direct proof. Unlike Alvi to whom Messi introduced herself, Verin's statement is phrased in a way that says she is guessing with a high degree of internal certainty.

 

Actually you are again incorrect. Like Alviarin, Verin also met Mesaana. Twice.

 

Beyond which your claim that she has no proof baffles me. Verin is highly methodological, and gave Egwene a book filled with notes to substantiate her claims. She even specifically cites that part of what that book covers are her notes and deductions from her meetings with Mesaana--presumably the basis of her certainty.

 

Besides, beyond her the fact that her methods are proved both highly reliable and effective in the purge, thus sustaining a evidenciary basis for the certainty of her opinions, we have the simple fact that she is right. Mesaana is in the Tower. There ain't much more to it than that.

 

 

[Sharaman]

She said "I am certain of it" not "She said she was Messaana". Hence deduction - not direct proof. We know she's right, and I did mention that she met Messi twice.

[dapianoplay3r]

I bet theres sumthng else important hidden in her books that mayb by nt tellng egwene x is the one it wil force her to read it all

[Luckers]

She said "I am certain of it" not "She said she was Messaana". Hence deduction - not direct proof. We know she's right, and I did mention that she met Messi twice.

 

That this was the result of a deduction on her part does not mean she did not have proof Sharaman. Deduction is the process of reaching a conclusion based on the examination of evidence. Certainty resulting from deduction means--depending on the discipline of the scholar in question--that the cumulative state of the evidence serves as proof of a suppostition. That is what Verin has done. We even have her notes on the evidence that led to her deduction.

 

I really don't see the point in this.