Verin (Full Book Spoilers)

[mossman87]

Since it is the soul that is reborn can't it be that in one life you could channel and in another not?

We do know that Rand is a Hero tied to the Horn but what about Mat and Perrin?

 

Q:  Are Mat and Perrin Heroes of the Horn reborn?

RJ:  RAFO

 

;D

 

Personally I believe so, but I don't think we know yet.

[Blackhoof]

  Verin used something like compulsion on sisters to make them swear to Rand.  We know the weaves are still in place because Semirhage removes it from Elza.  I wonder if the weaves could have commands hidden in them that activate when the sister is told Verin is dead?

 

  I wonder who else Verin might have used the weave on.  Does Verin confess in her book that she used compulsion on Alanna to force her to bind Rand? Might Egewene telling Rand this change Rand's view of Alanna?  Who else might have some command of Verin's buried in them? some of the two rivers novices that Verin and Alanna took to the rebels?

 

I doubt that Verin compelled Elza, likely it was Graendal or SH (he might be able to compell people, he has some command of magicness) And i also doubt that Verin compelled anyone other than those sisters, she is not some psycho meany, compelling people left right and centre, especially since she knows that it could have long-term effects.

[Sharaman]

Verin compelled Elza and all the other Dumai's Well sisters she managed to get to - TPoD prologue.

BS confirmed that it was Verin's programming of Elza that Semi had to remove.

 

[Blackhoof]

Well.... that makes me feel stupid.

[Crael123]

Why would the Horn need to be used again? if this really is the LAST BATTLE the horn would no longer be needed, its purpose served, because the Horn was made to call the heroes back for THE LAST BATTLE and if it is the LAST BATTLE the horn wont be needed.

 

anyway sorry off topic. but verins letter will probably tell mat where the horn is.

[FanoLan]

Bloody Verin, just like a typical AS always finding extra flaming work for some poor soul - well, not I'm not expecting a pat on the head, but hopefully won't end up six feet under for my efforts.

 

From Ch. 39, the following just flew by at first (and second) read, but for some reason it has now become lodged in my psyche and I hope some of the other fine folks here can illuminate the possible significance.  Unless there is none.

 

Egwene interrupts Verin, saying "Wait.  You joined the Black Ajah to study them?"  Verin's response, "I joined them to keep my skin intact, I'm rather fond of it, though Tomas did go on about these white hairs." (italics in original) There's more, of course, but this is what caught my attention.

 

What the heck is Verin saying about her hair?  At first glance, it seems like a throwaway line, just a little extra spice to flesh out the scene.  But why that specific language?  The structure of the line intimates that something about joining the BA caused Verin's hair to whiten and that Tomas knew in advance and voiced his displeasure about it.

 

It could be read that Tomas is already dead when Verin speaks the line, and  he merely voiced post-whitening complaints.  Even then, however, the implication of cause related to joining the BA persists.  At least, it seems that way to me.

 

It could be something to do with un-swearing on the Oath Rod after having been bound so long, but we don't see similar results in the BA hunters and at least Pevara has been wearing the shawl for quite a while.  It could be something to do with unbinding and then swearing as BA if you've already been bound for quite some time beforehand.  Not sure if we've seen any other BA as old as Verin to confirm or refute, but maybe it's possible.  Or it could be related specifically to Verin but that would be pure speculation with no other relevant evidence.

 

Or maybe it's just nothing at all and I've been adroitly misled once again in this brilliant series.

 

[mossman87]

I just took it as whatever stress Verin was dealing with when she finally got caught, and after the whole ordeal she went gray.  Kind of like how Presidents come in with some nice hair and after 4 or 8 years in office they're completely gray and look 15 years older lol.

 

But knowing this story, could mean anything.

 

Edit: And Tomas could just be giving her crap about it, teasing her.

[lillcheese]

I can't stop wondering, did Verin know Tomas was a DF before she bonded him?  Did she bond him, discover he was a DF, start searching for the BA and get caught because of it?  When did he decide to work against the DO?

[somathus]

Algemar is who? If you mean Jagad, the great Captain of Shienar and Fal Dara, what makes you believe he's a DF?

I'm not saying he's not (at least not yet) but what is your line of logic?

 

 

Whoops, I meant Ingtar. 

[Vulgir]

 

Right he is but he wasn't called back by the horn he is LTT reborn just as LTT was reborn from whoever his predeccesor was.  At leas that is my understanding, from what I see, everyone is reborn, not just heroes, Thats why when Aiel go into the ring ter'angreal they see the truth of the past through the eyes of their past lives or ancestors. (don't know if this actually makes my point but it seemed valid to since that is what occurs in there) this stands to reason that both Verin and Ingtar's souls will be reborn as new beings and have another chance to make better choices as that new person (of course they won't know it) and as the famous saying goes, the wheel weaves as the wheel wills.  So I'm not saying they will not be bound to the wheel and called by the horn but their is just a lack of evidence about channelers doing so.

 

Rand isn't called back from the horn because he is currently reborn, Bridgette, and Cain wont be called back to fight with the Horn because they too are Reborn

 

[djamespease]

I can't stop wondering, did Verin know Tomas was a DF before she bonded him?  Did she bond him, discover he was a DF, start searching for the BA and get caught because of it?  When did he decide to work against the DO?

 

"Tomas. Does he know what you've done?" (Egwene)

"He was a darkfriend himself, child," Verin said. "Wanting a way out."

(page 601)

 

Tomas was already a df.

[WolfDragonFox]

I also once dismissed this as a passing phrase of stress over time or teasing but now, I don't really see the deep meaning of it FanoLan but I now take it upon rereading as he maybe pointed her hair out to show how long they had been doing the whole undercover thing and maybe he was wondering if it was worth it which now that I am typing this begs me the question, did she kill him because he was trying to stop her from throwing away the hard work or am I now way too deep in it.  Because we do know Verin can lie so that bit about Tomas being with family could be a fib.  

 

I swear when you think ya know something just read this series again and you realize you know Zip! lol Love it.

[Mr Ares]

I doubt Ingtar would make it in, but Verin def should, but most heroes or all that I can tell are well known when they are heroes and they keep getting reborn as practically the same person doing the same kind of deeds and fighting the same distinct way.  I hope Verin qualifies somehow but i don't know if she will.  Besides that I don't remember any channelers at all being bound to the wheel and called by the horn.

Rand's a Hero. Rand can channel.

Right he is but he wasn't called back by the horn he is LTT reborn just as LTT was reborn from whoever his predeccesor was. At leas that is my understanding, from what I see, everyone is reborn, not just heroes

Yes, everryone is reborn, and yes, Rand is LTT reborn. This is not in dispute. But LTT was a Hero, and so is Rand, by virtue of being a new incarnation of the same soul.

Thats why when Aiel go into the ring ter'angreal they see the truth of the past through the eyes of their past lives or ancestors.

Just ancestors, and irrelevant.

this stands to reason that both Verin and Ingtar's souls will be reborn as new beings and have another chance to make better choices as that new person

Yes.

So I'm not saying they will not be bound to the wheel and called by the horn but their is just a lack of evidence about channelers doing so.

But there isn't. We have one - Rand.

[lillcheese]

I can't stop wondering, did Verin know Tomas was a DF before she bonded him?  Did she bond him, discover he was a DF, start searching for the BA and get caught because of it?  When did he decide to work against the DO?

 

"Tomas. Does he know what you've done?" (Egwene)

"He was a darkfriend himself, child," Verin said. "Wanting a way out."

(page 601)

 

Tomas was already a df.

 

I didn't forget that part, I just didn't think it was conclusive. 

 

Now though, I suppose it's unlikely he'd been bonded for longer than 70 years. 

[somathus]

Bloody Verin, just like a typical AS always finding extra flaming work for some poor soul - well, not I'm not expecting a pat on the head, but hopefully won't end up six feet under for my efforts.

 

From Ch. 39, the following just flew by at first (and second) read, but for some reason it has now become lodged in my psyche and I hope some of the other fine folks here can illuminate the possible significance.  Unless there is none.

 

Egwene interrupts Verin, saying "Wait.  You joined the Black Ajah to study them?"  Verin's response, "I joined them to keep my skin intact, I'm rather fond of it, though Tomas did go on about these white hairs." (italics in original) There's more, of course, but this is what caught my attention.

 

What the heck is Verin saying about her hair?  At first glance, it seems like a throwaway line, just a little extra spice to flesh out the scene.  But why that specific language?  The structure of the line intimates that something about joining the BA caused Verin's hair to whiten and that Tomas knew in advance and voiced his displeasure about it.

 

It could be read that Tomas is already dead when Verin speaks the line, and  he merely voiced post-whitening complaints.  Even then, however, the implication of cause related to joining the BA persists.  At least, it seems that way to me.

 

It could be something to do with un-swearing on the Oath Rod after having been bound so long, but we don't see similar results in the BA hunters and at least Pevara has been wearing the shawl for quite a while.  It could be something to do with unbinding and then swearing as BA if you've already been bound for quite some time beforehand.  Not sure if we've seen any other BA as old as Verin to confirm or refute, but maybe it's possible.  Or it could be related specifically to Verin but that would be pure speculation with no other relevant evidence.

 

Or maybe it's just nothing at all and I've been adroitly misled once again in this brilliant series.

 

I figure she was referring to the process of swearing oaths to the DO.  She refers to it as a "distinctive" process and wasn't sure if the Oath Rod could even remove them.

[FanoLan]

 

I figure she was referring to the process of swearing oaths to the DO.  She refers to it as a "distinctive" process and wasn't sure if the Oath Rod could even remove them.

 

I'm thinking so as well, but then why Verin in particular.  Not every BA we've seen has gray hair.

[Sharaman]

Verin was 130-140 years old. So she was an oddball in that she'd was 60-70 and had worn the shawl for 40 years probably before she became AS. Most BA become BA fairly early on.

She may well have had some gray hairs before she embraced GLoD. Or the pain of unswearing-reswearing may have hit her harder because she was old. Or she may have had to swear some specially stringent oath.

 

[lillcheese]

 

Now though, I suppose it's unlikely he'd been bonded for longer than 70 years.  

 

So, I feel I have to take that back now.  Thanks somathus for reminding me:

 

Egwene interrupts Verin, saying "Wait.  You joined the Black Ajah to study them?"  Verin's response, "I joined them to keep my skin intact, I'm rather fond of it, though Tomas did go on about these white hairs." (italics in original)

 

Doesn't that imply she didn't swear until after she bonded Tomas?  Is it possible Verin was snooping around for the BA just to help Tomas make amends/get out? 

 

[Blackhoof]

Whemn she said "i am rather fond of it(her skin), but tomas did go on about these white hairs" i interpreted it as meaning tomas, in classic warder worry-wort style, was going on about verin aging. But maybe the stress of doing "unsavory" things for the BA aged her prematuraly (well, in a matter of speaking) and it didn't stress out the other BA as much because they're all evil, and verin wasn't.

[JakeBarnes]

Slightly off-topic, but at one point toward the beginning of Path of Daggers (I think) there is a scene where Verin is doing her slight compulsion on the Tower ambasadors who tried to kidnap Rand.  During this passage, Verin makes "an even deeper bow" to one of the wise ones who was present.  I'm not saying that I think this wise one is a darkfriend but, given the events of TGS, shouldn't we start looking back through all of Verin's appearances to find odd occurances such as this?

[Jemlin]

Slightly off-topic, but at one point toward the beginning of Path of Daggers (I think) there is a scene where Verin is doing her slight compulsion on the Tower ambasadors who tried to kidnap Rand.  During this passage, Verin makes "an even deeper bow" to one of the wise ones who was present.  I'm not saying that I think this wise one is a darkfriend but, given the events of TGS, shouldn't we start looking back through all of Verin's appearances to find odd occurances such as this?

 

We should, though I am sorry to say that Bow was more likely due to her interpretation of the Wise One's power and ranking.  Verin was very much aware, as her POV displayed, that she was just a step away from being one of the Wise One's new Apprentices herself.  She had to bow and scrap to varying degrees to maintain her position, so that she was able to apply her Compulsion to the Aes Sedai.

[Jareth Bixx]

Something I discovered while reading posts in a non spoiler forum (Here: http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,51242.0.html) made me stop for a moment:

 

 

Something i've only just noticed though is that in Egwenes 1st test she 'remembers':

Nynaeve’s cures often worked in near miraculous fashion, wounds healed with barely a scar, sick folk brought back from the edge of the grave. But three times now, Egwene had cured someone Nynaeve had given up for dead. Three times she had sat to hold a hand through the last hour, and seen the person get up from a deathbed.

 

Lambada raises a good point with this topic, and it would seem to indicate to me that perhaps we have not seen the end of Verin, and that Egwene will play an instrumental role in her "resurrection". On page 605 of my copy it says "Egwene sat, holding the woman's hand." That's one of three for sure. Does Verin know any of what happened to Egwene in her accepted test?

[Blackhoof]

Impossible. You can't heal the dead. To heal the dead, you have to not only heal their body of its injuries, but if there is no soul left, if it has already left to be reincarnated at a later date, then it isn't possible to comepletely bring someone back to life. Raise them as a zombie with Power-necromancy, you could do. 

[Entretamis]

Something I discovered while reading posts in a non spoiler forum (Here: http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,51242.0.html) made me stop for a moment:

 

 

Something i've only just noticed though is that in Egwenes 1st test she 'remembers':

Nynaeve’s cures often worked in near miraculous fashion, wounds healed with barely a scar, sick folk brought back from the edge of the grave. But three times now, Egwene had cured someone Nynaeve had given up for dead. Three times she had sat to hold a hand through the last hour, and seen the person get up from a deathbed.

 

Lambada raises a good point with this topic, and it would seem to indicate to me that perhaps we have not seen the end of Verin, and that Egwene will play an instrumental role in her "resurrection". On page 605 of my copy it says "Egwene sat, holding the woman's hand." That's one of three for sure. Does Verin know any of what happened to Egwene in her accepted test?

 

 

if i recall correctly the accepted test is like the rings in the waste, they show you different possible futures.  i always thought that scene was Egwene helping Nyn as a wisdom, Nyn was not able to help the person because of her block, and egwene cure the person not knowing she was channeling. 

 

rand does something similar to bela when they first leave the 2Rivers, not healing, but channels with out knowing giving bela strenght and stamina.

[wvlr2]

Eggy was full of Forkroot at the time & could not Channel.    If she had not been - she should have been able to Heal Verin.