Verin (Full Book Spoilers)

[Graendals favourite]

Wasn't it that last major mistake of Verin's that she made seventy years ago, that she thought of when compelling the prisoner sisters, was that in Winter's Heart prologue?

[Random Man]

Wasn't it that last major mistake of Verin's that she made seventy years ago, that she thought of when compelling the prisoner sisters, was that in Winter's Heart prologue?

 

Now that we know that Verin became BA because she basically got caught snooping, and "joined them to keep [her] skin intact," it's probable that this is was her "mistake" she mentions in tPoD prologue, especially since we know she had been "planning" something for 70 years (which coincides with the last mistake she made) and we now know what she's been doing during this time. Her joining the BA might have had something to do with her banished from Far Madding (or maybe as a BA she had to kill someone there?)or it could be completely unrelated.

 

Personally, the revelation of Verin as BA makes me re-evaluate all of her actions throughout the series to find out what she's done on behalf of the Light and the Dark. Is it possible she sent the Dragkhar to Moiraine in TGH because she was ordered to do so, or perhaps as a warning to Moiraine? Did anyone ever ask RJ about how Verin was able to modify those boulders to explode while in the Two Rivers in TSR? Seems to me now that that would violate the Second Oath even though we know the TR folk were planning to use them against Trollocs (I suppose a "careful self-justification" could create a loophole).

 

Lots of food for thought. Anyone else think Verin's explanation to Mat about being caught up in the Pattern was complete BS? She had a letter ready for him, and we know she contacted a Darkfriend before finding him, so I don't think it would be too hard for her to find him if she had intended to do so in the first place.

 

[Jemlin]

Wasn't it that last major mistake of Verin's that she made seventy years ago, that she thought of when compelling the prisoner sisters, was that in Winter's Heart prologue?

 

Now that we know that Verin became BA because she basically got caught snooping, and "joined them to keep [her] skin intact," it's probable that this is was her "mistake" she mentions in tPoD prologue, especially since we know she had been "planning" something for 70 years (which coincides with the last mistake she made) and we now know what she's been doing during this time. Her joining the BA might have had something to do with her banished from Far Madding (or maybe as a BA she had to kill someone there?)or it could be completely unrelated.

 

Personally, the revelation of Verin as BA makes me re-evaluate all of her actions throughout the series to find out what she's done on behalf of the Light and the Dark. Is it possible she sent the Dragkhar to Moiraine in TGH because she was ordered to do so, or perhaps as a warning to Moiraine? Did anyone ever ask RJ about how Verin was able to modify those boulders to explode while in the Two Rivers in TSR? Seems to me now that that would violate the Second Oath even though we know the TR folk were planning to use them against Trollocs (I suppose a "careful self-justification" could create a loophole).

 

Lots of food for thought. Anyone else think Verin's explanation to Mat about being caught up in the Pattern was complete BS? She had a letter ready for him, and we know she contacted a Darkfriend before finding him, so I don't think it would be too hard for her to find him if she had intended to do so in the first place.

 

 

The boulders were to attack the Shadow, not men. They can not make a weapon that men can use against men.  Way different to use exploding boulders against shadowspawn.  Alanna helped do them as well, and as far as we know, she is still not identified as BA, so if she was bound by the three oaths and made theme xplode, then we can assume that creating weapons to fight shadowspawn is OK

[Blademaster Tayos]

The most impressive thing about Verin in this book is that she talks in maybe 4 chapters and yet still manages to make, arguably, the most important revelation and plot development in the entire book.  Although I do have to admit that she has been setting up for this since the great hunt.

[Graendals favourite]

Wasn't it that last major mistake of Verin's that she made seventy years ago, that she thought of when compelling the prisoner sisters, was that in Winter's Heart prologue?

 

Now that we know that Verin became BA because she basically got caught snooping, and "joined them to keep [her] skin intact," it's probable that this is was her "mistake" she mentions in tPoD prologue, especially since we know she had been "planning" something for 70 years (which coincides with the last mistake she made) and we now know what she's been doing during this time. Her joining the BA might have had something to do with her banished from Far Madding (or maybe as a BA she had to kill someone there?)or it could be completely unrelated.

 

Personally, the revelation of Verin as BA makes me re-evaluate all of her actions throughout the series to find out what she's done on behalf of the Light and the Dark. Is it possible she sent the Dragkhar to Moiraine in TGH because she was ordered to do so, or perhaps as a warning to Moiraine? Did anyone ever ask RJ about how Verin was able to modify those boulders to explode while in the Two Rivers in TSR? Seems to me now that that would violate the Second Oath even though we know the TR folk were planning to use them against Trollocs (I suppose a "careful self-justification" could create a loophole).

 

Lots of food for thought. Anyone else think Verin's explanation to Mat about being caught up in the Pattern was complete BS? She had a letter ready for him, and we know she contacted a Darkfriend before finding him, so I don't think it would be too hard for her to find him if she had intended to do so in the first place.

 

 

The boulders were to attack the Shadow, not men. They can not make a weapon that men can use against men.  Way different to use exploding boulders against shadowspawn.  Alanna helped do them as well, and as far as we know, she is still not identified as BA, so if she was bound by the three oaths and made theme xplode, then we can assume that creating weapons to fight shadowspawn is OK

 

Actually, the Oath goes not to make a weapons for ONE man to kill ANOTHER. Since the catapults needed several to operate, I think one man probably could not have even lifted one of the stones or at least throw it at anyone so they would die, the oath is easily avoided.

 

Maybe just me, but I do believe Verin's story, considering she followed up with the poison (If ever you can't find something, the logical thing is to drink poison), to me it rang as someone speaking who did not need to care anymore about secrets. As she revealed to Mat she had gotten the picture from Darkfriends. Also she warned Mat that any Darkfriend would want to kill him, which is reasonable considering Moridin's orders.

[Random Man]

 

Actually, the Oath goes not to make a weapons for ONE man to kill ANOTHER. Since the catapults needed several to operate, I think one man probably could not have even lifted one of the stones or at least throw it at anyone so they would die, the oath is easily avoided.

 

Interesting, so by this reasoning, nothing prevents an Aes Sedai from using the Power to create siege weaponry, or any sort of destructive device that requires more than one person to operate. I have a feeling that the majority of Aes Sedai believe that this is still prohibited (a la how Moiraine found she could not write a lie in NS). The fact still remains that those catapults could have easily been used against non-shadowspawn such as the Whitecloaks, so Alanna would have had to have gotten herself around the Second Oath to assist with creating the exploding rocks. Perhaps her seeing Verin doing it was enough to convince her it did not violate the Second Oath.

 

Maybe just me, but I do believe Verin's story, considering she followed up with the poison (If ever you can't find something, the logical thing is to drink poison), to me it rang as someone speaking who did not need to care anymore about secrets. As she revealed to Mat she had gotten the picture from Darkfriends. Also she warned Mat that any Darkfriend would want to kill him, which is reasonable considering Moridin's orders.

 

I have no doubt that Verin had noble intentions when visiting Mat, but she knew that Mat is instinctively distrustful of Aes Sedai and would not react well to being sought out; thus, it would make sense for her to create this tale of being drawn to him that was too fantastic to be a lie, and too elaborate and detailed for him to think that she was deceiving him -- especially since she was little worry about exposing herself by lying since she was planning her own death. I'm sure she did meet with Darkfriends who were seeking Mat on Moridin's orders; quite possibly, this is how she found him, by following up on rumors through the DF network.

 

[wvlr2]

Lots of food for thought. Anyone else think Verin's explanation to Mat about being caught up in the Pattern was complete BS? She had a letter ready for him, and we know she contacted a Darkfriend before finding him, so I don't think it would be too hard for her to find him if she had intended to do so in the first place.

 

I think the she was giving Mat a lot of BS.    She obviously went looking for him to give him the letter.    It probably specifically warns him about certian people he should not trust (Darkfriends and BA).    She probably got away with this because he was not to open it for 10 days (well after her "hour" was up).  She most likely gave Mat other tasks/instructions - as well as the warning.

 

She also probably gave one to Perrin.    I wonder who the others were for?

[jemron]

Lots of food for thought. Anyone else think Verin's explanation to Mat about being caught up in the Pattern was complete BS? She had a letter ready for him, and we know she contacted a Darkfriend before finding him, so I don't think it would be too hard for her to find him if she had intended to do so in the first place.

 

I think the she was giving Mat a lot of BS.    She obviously went looking for him to give him the letter.    It probably specifically warns him about certian people he should not trust (Darkfriends and BA).    She probably got away with this because he was not to open it for 10 days (well after her "hour" was up).  She most likely gave Mat other tasks/instructions - as well as the warning.

 

She also probably gave one to Perrin.    I wonder who the others were for?

 

It is interesting to think that maybe Verin was just giving Mat the extra confidence that she knew he needed, and that all that story about his ta'veren pull was exaggerated.  However, the only way that I can see that Verin could have found Mat was by his ta'veren pull, so it definitely played a role.  Verin didn't lie for no reason.  She tried to be Aes Sedai as best as she could, I think.

 

Anyway, I like the idea that she gave Perrin a letter too.

[Sentinel78]

Anyway, I like the idea that she gave Perrin a letter too.

 

Yeah BS mentioned Perrin's POV is about a month behind Rand's and Egwene's right now, so it's possible.  It would be a little... weird to see Verin walking around alive in the next book though.

[jemron]

How cool would that be though?  To see Verin in the beginning of the next book?

 

That would be funky.  Do you think BS could pull it off?

[Sentinel78]

How cool would that be though?  To see Verin in the beginning of the next book?

 

That would be funky.  Do you think BS could pull it off?

 

Sure, I actually receive an advanced copy of the Chapter titles for ToM:

 

Chapter 1:  "Letters for the Wolf"

Chapter 2:  "The Elusive Oath Rod"

Chapter 3:  "In need of tea from the kitchens"

Chapter 4:  "Laras turned into Mesaana, but gave me the tea anyway"

Chapter 5:  "Compulsion made me forget Mesaana's fatsuit"

Chapter 6:  "Heading upstairs to talk to Egwene"

[jemron]

How cool would that be though?  To see Verin in the beginning of the next book?

 

That would be funky.  Do you think BS could pull it off?

 

Sure, I actually receive an advanced copy of the Chapter titles for ToM:

 

Chapter 1:  "Letters for the Wolf"

Chapter 2:  "The Elusive Oath Rod"

Chapter 3:  "In need of tea from the kitchens"

Chapter 4:  "Laras turned into Mesaana, but gave me the tea anyway"

Chapter 5:  "Compulsion made me forget Mesaana's fatsuit"

Chapter 6:  "Heading upstairs to talk to Egwene"

 

Haha.  Nice.  It's settled then.

[Dalven]

How cool would that be though?  To see Verin in the beginning of the next book?

 

That would be funky.  Do you think BS could pull it off?

 

Sure, I actually receive an advanced copy of the Chapter titles for ToM:

 

Chapter 1:  "Letters for the Wolf"

Chapter 2:  "The Elusive Oath Rod"

Chapter 3:  "In need of tea from the kitchens"

Chapter 4:  "Laras turned into Mesaana, but gave me the tea anyway"

Chapter 5:  "Compulsion made me forget Mesaana's fatsuit"

Chapter 6:  "Heading upstairs to talk to Egwene"

I read that too, but BS told me a little more detail.

 

In Chap 1, "Letters for the Wolf", Rodel "Little Wolf" Ituralde is going to be practicing his handwriting.

 

In Chap 2, "The Elusive Oath Rod", the title is actually "The Elusive Oath, Rod", Rod is short for Rodel, who SWORE that he'd keep practicing his lower cased t's until he got them right, but got confused and went looking for tea instead.

 

In Chap 3, "In need of tea from the kitchens", Rod in the kitchens looking for tea. Mesaana catches wind of this and devises an evil plot. That's right, she's really not in the White Tower anymore!

 

In Chap 4, "Laras turned into Mesaana, but gave me the tea anyway", Mesaana, in a fat suit, spikes Rod's tea. She's trying to ruin the plans of the Light by getting Rodel drunk.

 

In Chap 5, "Compulsion made me forget Mesaana's fatsuit", under Compulsion, Rod sees his wife, triggering a memory of Mesaana's Compulsion and says, "It's you! You fat forsaken *****!"

 

In Chap 6, "Heading upstairs to talk to Egwene", Rodel goes upstairs in a beaten up, drunken stupor to cuddle with the doll he named Egwene, that old pedo.

 

----

 

On a serious note, BS is going to have to pull it off, according to 

Storm Leader Report: Lexington, KY

Brandon admitted there would be overlapping chronology between The Gathering Storm and The Towers of Midnight

 

[Jillain Sanche]

Her revelations to Egwene had to be the most shocking and unexpected development of the book.

 

But it seems to me that there is suspicion cast on Laras? Why is Laras holding a supply of poisonous asping rot tea? Why does Laras keep poisons? And, depending on the answer, other questions emerge such as: Did Verin compulse Laras? Would Verin not have had to lie to Laras about for whom the poison would be intended? And so forth.

 

[Sentinel78]

But it seems to me that there is suspicion cast on Laras? Why is Laras holding a supply of poisonous asping rot tea? Why does Laras keep poisons? And, depending on the answer, other questions emerge such as: Did Verin compulse Laras? Would Verin not have had to lie to Laras about for whom the poison would be intended? And so forth.

 

Unless you need to escape from the White Tower, Laras is a big, fat red herring --- literally.  Laras gave Verin a particular type of tea that would mask the taste of the poison.  That is all.  This was only so that the poison would be easier for Verin to drink.  There's really nothing more to it than that. 

 

I think Laras is as relevant as Bela (no, Laras is not the Creator).

[Dalven]

I agree. Laras is a cook who steps outside her roll once in a while. Nothing more.

 

Bela is the Creator though, and she did Balefire Asmo...

[Kelitor]

Does anyone else find it curious that while Verin trusted Egwene with her life story and her life's work and all that, she didn't give Egwene that carved flower Angreal that we saw her using to weave Compulsion on the da'tsang sisters in the Aiel camp so long ago?

 

What happened to Verin's angreal?

[Devlin1969]

Her revelations to Egwene had to be the most shocking and unexpected development of the book.

 

But it seems to me that there is suspicion cast on Laras? Why is Laras holding a supply of poisonous asping rot tea? Why does Laras keep poisons? And, depending on the answer, other questions emerge such as: Did Verin compulse Laras? Would Verin not have had to lie to Laras about for whom the poison would be intended? And so forth.

 

 

I just re-read this part of the book and Verin does not say that the poison cam from Laras, just the specific Tea that Verin asked for.

Because that particular tea hides the foul/bitter taste of the poison.

Laras had no idea about the poison and Verin was very taken aback when Egwene even suggested that Laras was a dark friend.

[Random Man]

Does anyone else find it curious that while Verin trusted Egwene with her life story and her life's work and all that, she didn't give Egwene that carved flower Angreal that we saw her using to weave Compulsion on the da'tsang sisters in the Aiel camp so long ago?

 

What happened to Verin's angreal?

 

She also had it in her possession as of TGS chapter 36 "The Death of Tuon" when meeting with Mat. Possibly she passed it on to another AS she trusted before visiting Egwene. But you're right, rather curious indeed, as if she's willing to trust Egwene with her life's work but not the Angreal.

[mbuehner]

Luckers had a theory on Verin's motive - it was that she was aiming to have AS support him, but not control him. So she constantly undermines the attempts of AS such as Moiraine and Siuan to control him (such as the lie), but is not against them helping him. We do look for motive, sometimes, but we can make mistakes.

 

Boy doesn't that sound like the description of a hero bound to the wheel?  Verin's motives have always seemed difficult to ascertain. Didn't Cadsuane describe her as 'a woman of many masks' or something along those lines when she took off in KoD (and did Cadsuane know something?)?

 

Verin being tossed around by the pattern to keep Rand free to fulfill his destiny sure seems to fit.

[Jemlin]

Does anyone else find it curious that while Verin trusted Egwene with her life story and her life's work and all that, she didn't give Egwene that carved flower Angreal that we saw her using to weave Compulsion on the da'tsang sisters in the Aiel camp so long ago?

 

What happened to Verin's angreal?

 

Good question. She might have simply returned it to the Storeroom that she visisted, in trying to find the Oath Rod.  That, in my mind, would be the simplest thing for her to do.

 

[jemron]

Or it could be a gift that will be/already was delivered with one of Verin's letters to someone else.

[wvlr2]

Does anyone else find it curious that while Verin trusted Egwene with her life story and her life's work and all that, she didn't give Egwene that carved flower Angreal that we saw her using to weave Compulsion on the da'tsang sisters in the Aiel camp so long ago?

 

What happened to Verin's angreal?

 

She probably did not give it up - because she still needs it.    The death was just a MoM trick.  Eggy only checked for breathing.    She did not check for any One Power trick.  We get no "View" of the body being disposed of and Eggy never asks that rebal Spy about it after.    Now that everyone, including the BA,  think that Verin is dead - she can be free to do whatever she wants.  She really removed the Black Oaths hours ago.  She is probably wearing MoM and hiding in the tower looking for Mesaana. :o

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Enough of the Greandel is alive threads - let's have a Verin and Semi are alive thread!!! ;D ;D

[Jemlin]

Does anyone else find it curious that while Verin trusted Egwene with her life story and her life's work and all that, she didn't give Egwene that carved flower Angreal that we saw her using to weave Compulsion on the da'tsang sisters in the Aiel camp so long ago?

 

What happened to Verin's angreal?

 

She probably did not give it up - because she still needs it.    The death was just a MoM trick.   Eggy only checked for breathing.     She did not check for any One Power trick.   We get no "View" of the body being disposed of and Eggy never asks that rebal Spy about it after.    Now that everyone, including the BA,  think that Verin is dead - she can be free to do whatever she wants.   She really removed the Black Oaths hours ago.   She is probably wearing MoM and hiding in the tower looking for Mesaana. :o

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Enough of the Greandel is alive threads - let's have a Verin and Semi are alive thread!!! ;D ;D

 

Bah. Verin is dead. It makes her more of a Hero. Your theories have no evidence!!! *flails*

 

[wvlr2]

Bah. Verin is dead. It makes her more of a Hero. Your theories have no evidence!!! *flails*

 

Well the evidence is:

 

1.  Verin did not give Egwene that carved flower Angreal -  Why set her to such a gigantic task and not give her ALL the tools that she (Eggy) needs to do the job.

 

2.  Verin is obviously smarter that the average AS - so it is hard to believe that in 70 years she never found the opportunity to test her OR / oath removal theory.

 

3.  Both Mat and Eggy make mental note in their separate POVs that Verin was scamming / putting on a show.