Perrin and Faile's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[Calderis]

So, Perrin has started (or continued?) to realize that he has to control the wolf somehow. Often when he goes to the wolf dream, Hopper tells him he's there too strong and has to go back or die, I guess the same as the Wise Ones term in the flesh. In The Gathering Storm Hopper even throws Perrin out I think. The Wise Ones say that everytime you go to Tel'Aran'Rhiod in the flesh, you lose some of your humanity. So does Perrin need to learn how to come to the wolf dream "not in the flesh"? Or will that start happening when he learns to control the wolf? Does he become more of a wolf/less human everytime he enters in the flesh?

 

The wise ones were speaking of the act of entering wholly into TaR so your body did not physically exist in the physical world, i. e. Slayer. We've seen both Rand and Egwene do this.

 

What Perrin was doing was entering into the dream mentally strongly enough that his connection to his body was minimal. There would have been no requirement for him to wake up, and his body would have died without him ever noticing. Until of course he tried to leave TaR.

[bronnt]

Perrin was my favorite character (or very, very close to it) through the first 8 books.  Loved TSR and his role in it.  Since then, he's been trapped in the Plot-Hole-That-Will-Not-End.  This is one of the very few areas where RJ messed up, IMHO.

 

He left Cairhien on an errand from Rand, to be carried out in secrecy.  This was supposed to take a matter of weeks, at most.  Perrin has been gone for MONTHS, and despite the fact that both parties have access to Gateways, neither party makes contact with the other.  This is supposedly because of the fact that they staged a big falling out (which turned into an actual fight-I loved Perrin's willingness to take a stand with Rand at that time) and it would destroy the charade if they made contact.

 

But this logic really gets stretched.  Once Perrin has Masema with him, and upon learning that Masema won't just hop in a Gateway to visit Rand, it makes sense for him to send Grady/Neald to take a message to Rand and let him know what's going on.  But then Faile gets captured by the Shaido.  Despite the fact that Rand wouldn't mind seeing the last of the Shaido taken care of, he doesn't try to find Rand then, either.  And before Rand gets imprisoned in Far Madding, he's not so jaded that he would refuse to help Faile.  Perrin instead takes his entire force on what is essentially a scouting expedition.  I understand that this is an error on Perrin's part, intentionally forcing him to introspection, but he should have been using scouts in conjunction with Asha'Man Gates from the very beginning, and left his forces camped until they had a direction.  But that's excusable, since his wife was taken, and he's in an emotional state.

 

Unfortuantely, the plot hole continues, and every development where he continues to stay out of contract stretches the logic to straining.  Upon finding Faile, and despite many statements that he'd make alliance with even the Shadow if it got Faile free, he never sends someone to find Rand, which is probably his best bet of getting an army ready that can take out the Shaido.  Again, at this point, he's basically done everything Rand had asked, so there's no reason for him not to contact him.  Given the timeline, it's likely they'd have had a tough time actually finding Rand, since he was hopping around before ending up in Far Madding.  But by the time he finds Faile, he knows that Rand is at Shadar Logoth.  The channelers know where the cleansing is happening, and Perrin can confirm that it's Rand through his vision. After this, when Cadsuane stashed him Tear, he might have had a tough time tracking down Rand (he doesn't know that Elayne/Aviendha bonded him, or that Elayne is in Caemlyn-there's a lot he just doesn't know), but had he sent people to Cairhien, they'd probably have caught up with him when Logain's party did.

 

And we're given some straw men plot threads, like Traveling to So Harbor in order to buy grain.  With Traveling, why would they need to get grain semi-locally?  They could have gone directly to Tear or Illian for grain, and thus learned a great deal about what's going on with the rest of the world, but RJ wants Perrin in forced isolation.

 

Finally, after three books of build-up to a battle that's really a side-bar, RJ finally reunites Perrin with his wife, after all the convoluted cartwheels Perrin was forced to perform to effect it.  So when we get Perrin's POV in TGS, I'm thinking "Finally, we can bring him back into the larger fold. I was so tired of an essential character off doing his own thing."  But no, there's another straw man about Asha'Man being unable to weave Gates long enough to get everyone out, so Perrin remains in forced isolation.  At this point, they really, really should have just found Rand, borrowed a dozen Asha'Man to get everyone out, and wrapped this hanging thread up.  Instead, Tam Al'Thor has to remain hidden until near the end in order to prompt Rand's epiphany, so the entire thread is left dangling, and the main revelations appear off-screen.

 

That was a bit weird.  First, when Tam mentions the "Queen," I of course knew he was referring to Alliandre Maritha Kigarin, Blessed of the Light, Defender of the Garen's Wall, etc.  But no, apparently, he's talking about Morgase, so Alliandre has suddenly become an ancillary?  And the reunion with Galad/Dain/Byar is off screen, which should have been a huge moment as well.  BrS put that in, I think, in order to maintain some sense of the timeline while Rand's story gets well ahead of Perrins/Mat's, but he could have done it in reverse, giving Perrin visions during the next book in order to clear up the timeline.

 

I really did like a lot of BrS's material on Perrin/Faile.  He characterized Perrin very well and brought some of wolf issues back into focus.  Though it seems unpopular, I really liked the Rolan funeral as well.  I was really in need of closure regarding what happened to the Brotherless, as that scene in KoD really bothered me.  Men who should not have been foes meeting on the battlefield is tragic, and it had happened so quickly, Perrin plowing through him because he hesistated.  RJ just put him in a very bad spot by imposing such ridiculous conditions on Perrin.

 

It's for that reason that CoT is my least favorite book.  Mat's storyline is the only one that actually moves, and that's literally a circus.  I did like Mat's aspects, but Elayne gets a lot of screen time that doesn't set up anything significant, Rand is taken out of it because his plotline had gotten ahead of some others-the only other significant event is Egwene's capture at the very end. And most of all, it becomes obvious that Perrin is mired in plot-hell.  He hasn't encountered any of the other primary characters since CoS, so he's been out of touch for a staggering 3.5 books, and his plotline is still unresolved.

[jemron]

I really did like a lot of BrS's material on Perrin/Faile.  He characterized Perrin very well and brought some of wolf issues back into focus.  Though it seems unpopular, I really liked the Rolan funeral as well.  I was really in need of closure regarding what happened to the Brotherless, as that scene in KoD really bothered me.  Men who should not have been foes meeting on the battlefield is tragic, and it had happened so quickly, Perrin plowing through him because he hesistated.  RJ just put him in a very bad spot by imposing such ridiculous conditions on Perrin.

 

 

Back to the "Perrin is a whiny baby" association...  I've been wondering if RJ always meant Perrin to come to the epiphany that he did come to in TGS, but it just took him too long to get there, or was this BS's way of realizing how lame Perrin's character had become, and then tweaking the outline for his character a bit to make him less of a baby.

 

I feel like this is probably one of the things that BS has done to bring new life into the series that, in some cases, had lost its fire.  Though I still wish RJ was around to tell the story, I feel that in some ways the best thing that could've happened to this series was to get someone like BS who knows the story so well, but who wants to stay as true as he can to the right way of doing it, to bring some fresh blood into the series.

 

I'm really glad BS is the one behind the wheel now (though Harriet and RJ are most certainly still giving directions).

[The Wolf]

Reading Perrin’s chapters in this book made me readjust my thinking of his role in the rest of the series.  I now believe that he will be the rallying point for the common people in the last battle. His self analysis about being a leader and making bad decisions shows his true understanding of what it takes.  I view him as somewhat of a people’s champion.  

 

Rand will bring his armies and channelers, Matt will bring his skills and technology and Perrin will bring the bodies.  Perinn’s troops include everyone from seasoned soldiers to Aiel to Farm boys with bows.  Some follow him because he is a good leader, but many because they believe in what he is doing.  

 

Also, he is in the process of dropping the people he rescued back all over the continent.  They are going to spread the word and bring even more people.  Perrin is just as important as Matt in the last battle, and I think this is how he will do his part.  

 

Is it coincidence that the prolog was all about a blacksmith gearing up to go north to war?  

 

[DPT24]

I didn't find the Faile Rescue plot bad.  My only problem was it was done over a ton of books, 4, I think?  I just read through the books for the first time this Fall, and so I can only imagine how that felt to people reading these books from the beginning. 

 

  Yeah, Perrin probably should have contacted Rand and gotten some more people to take out the Shindo, i'm sure many of the Aiel already hunting them would have helped.  But, his contact with the Seanchan might come in handy latter on.  And as I always have to remind myself, due the the lenght of the books, all 13 books take place over 2 years, so stuff that seems dragged out really has happened in a reasonable timeframe.  Although I really thought Faile's rescue would have been completed in Winter Heart, over one book, not the 4 book's it took. 

 

  I think that the ToM will probably have a lot more Perrin and Mat, at least I hope it does....

[jemron]

@The Wolf -  I really like your assessment of Perrin's role in the final books.  He does seem the most prepared for something like what you suggest.  Man and beast (wolves) will rally to him.  I think we haven't seen the last of that Manetheren banner.

 

@DPT24 - I think it has been confirmed that TOM will have much more Perrin and Mat, and much less Rand and Egwene by BS himself.  I'm excited about Mat's storyline, but I would still rather follow Rand's than Perrin's, even with Perrin's supposed change of heart.  Especially after what just happened to Rand at the end of TGS.  I hope that AMOL is almost all Rand.

[thewalrus777]

I think Perrin pulling his head out of his a** will make his parts in the book muuuuuuuuch better. It'll make reading his parts actually enjoyable again. I'm just glad the Faile rescue plotline is finally over with. It was dragged out entirely too long. Perrin will be huge in the next book, due to his meeting with Galad, and finding out that Morgase is still alive. That actually should effect Rand and Elayne. Also finding out that his mother is still alive should cause Gawyn to pull his head out of his a**. I just now realized that so many people needed to pull their heads out of their a**es. Rand included.

[Sharaman]

Perrin will have his work cut out to prevent Child Byar and Dain Borthold (sp?) killing him as a known Darkfriend. Seems like he's fated to deal with that particular problem every so often.

 

[rubbernilly]

Perrin will have his work cut out to prevent Child Byar and Dain Borthold (sp?) killing him as a known Darkfriend. Seems like he's fated to deal with that particular problem every so often.

 

 

However, with the promise* that there will be only 2 more books, that plot line can't drag on forever. I mean, they can't be planning for one book, maneuvering for another, and setting their trap up for him in a third book, only to finally come to the light and realize that he isn't a darkfriend after all (or to just die) in a fourth book. It can't drag out like that.**

 

*just the latest promise from RJ/Tor/BS; if that number has changed by the time you read this post, please just substitute the latest estimated number of books in.

**oh, yes it can; this is the stuff that revised promises are made of.

[thewalrus777]

Perrin will have his work cut out to prevent Child Byar and Dain Borthold (sp?) killing him as a known Darkfriend. Seems like he's fated to deal with that particular problem every so often.

 

 

However, with the promise* that there will be only 2 more books, that plot line can't drag on forever. I mean, they can't be planning for one book, maneuvering for another, and setting their trap up for him in a third book, only to finally come to the light and realize that he isn't a darkfriend after all (or to just die) in a fourth book. It can't drag out like that.**

 

*just the latest promise from RJ/Tor/BS; if that number has changed by the time you read this post, please just substitute the latest estimated number of books in.

**oh, yes it can; this is the stuff that revised promises are made of.

 

Not to mention Dain really won't be able to challenge Perrin due to the big ass army he's now recruited. I think it will be something akin to us never have to see that situation happen in the first place.

[Sharaman]

Suspect Dain has no intention of "challenging" Perrin. He's more likely to try assassination or to poison Galad's mind against a "known darkfriend". Ditto Byar.

 

[thewalrus777]

Suspect Dain has no intention of "challenging" Perrin. He's more likely to try assassination or to poison Galad's mind against a "known darkfriend". Ditto Byar.

 

 

But then you'd have Egwene, Elayne, and Rand slapping some sense into Galad. However I think Galad is absolutely too smart to be fooled into being a pawn for Dain. Galad knows what's right and what's wrong. And Perrin being a personal friend of Egwene will only solidify my reasoning. Seeing as Galad has emotional ties to Egwene and would really do nothing to offend her. And that includes trying to harm any of her friends.

[Ataxia]

Once Morgase says how they saved her(twice) and treated her well, I believe Galad would threaten to punish any man who tries to harm Perrin and his men.

[Sharaman]

Yes - interesting dilemma for Dain and Byar since they hold Perrin directly responsible for killing a man they were devoted to.

For Dain especially, he'll have to balance blood ties versus Galad's take (asuming Galad doesn't try to kill Perrin).

 

[thewalrus777]

Yes - interesting dilemma for Dain and Byar since they hold Perrin directly responsible for killing a man they were devoted to.

For Dain especially, he'll have to balance blood ties versus Galad's take (asuming Galad doesn't try to kill Perrin).

 

 

And Galad's take will be "I will cut down any man who tries to bring harm, to the man who has saved and protected my step-mother the Queen of Andor." I would imagine if Tam knows Morgase is alive, then Perrin and Galad do as well. Which will debunk the rational that Rand killed her. All of them will meet up in Caemlyn and everything will get sorted out.

[Knightfall]

Hey all.

 

Does anyone have any opinions in regards to the talk of Perrin somehow converting to the Way of the Leaf (probably after the Last Battle, I know, but w/e)?  Combine his dislike of violence (save for maybe... the last book, maybe two... even then he's not what I'd call bloodthirsty) with the fact that he's a blacksmith (one of the only people that ironically can't be made gai'shan by the Aiel - i.e., forced to follow the Way in a sense).

 

I'm not sure what it is - something in the Unnoticed things thread brought this to mind, and the angles were such that it just seemed to mesh well.  Maybe after the Last Battle (or even after he gets to know his wife a bit more?) he just decides that all the violence isn't worth it, or maybe that there's no reason for it anymore, after the DO is finished?  Perhaps some foreshadowing as to how the world gets on track to restart a new utopian-esque Age of Legends?

 

Thoughts/ideas?

 

[alligator]

Considering that Perrin (well, along with Egwene) is the only major character to have much interaction with the Tinkers, it definitely seems plausible. And would fit with the whole character transformation thing-- when he first met them, he could NOT agree with them at all, but at that point he hadn't seen much of war. But now that he has... who knows?

 

I can't say whether I think it'll actually happen, but it's certainly a possible development.

[Sharaman]

Do you see Mrs Perrin converting to the Way of the Leaf?

[alligator]

Hm, I actually think Faile would do most anything for her hubby, so maybe. And she'd be quite the amusing Tinker.

[Knightfall]

I don't necessarily see Faile converting to the Way of the Leaf, but I do see her dying ... by whose hand, it's hard to say.  Maybe Perrin himself kills her, in some fit of rage or something - although at the moment it seems he might kill himself after if he did something like that.

[thewalrus777]

Elyas had told Perrin in regards to his axe "You'll use it [Perrin's axe], boy, and as long as you hate using it, you would use it more wisely than most men would. Wait. If ever you don't hate it any longer, then will be the time to throw it as far as you can and run the other way." I just can't see Perrin ever not hating his axe. In a way, he probably hates his hammer as well because it still can be used for violence as well as a tool. It would be an interesting take on his future if he were to take up The Way of The Leaf. For me, I just don't see it happening, mainly because I believe Perrin will be a ruler after TG. Just a theory.

 

And yes Faile will do anything for Perrin. She may not be the best woman in Randland, but she is unconditionally loyal to her husband.

[Crael123]

sorry walrus.... i am afraid avi is the best woman in randland... sorry to disapoint

[Sharaman]

Perrin's already chucked his axe away.

Min saw the Broken Crown (ruler of Saldaea) in his future.

Faile is two steps from the Broken Crown - Tenobia (current ruler), - Bashere - Faile.

If Perrin becomes ruler / ruler consort of Saldaea, given that it's a border kingdom, even after GLoD is vanquished, (assuming He is), I don't see Perrin adopting the Way of the Leaf. Saldaea will face the last backwash from Shadowspawn and human Darkfriends. 

I don't see Faile adopting tWotL, under almost any circumstances.

   

[thewalrus777]

sorry walrus.... i am afraid avi is the best woman in randland... sorry to disapoint

 

I never said Faile was. I too am a sucker for red-headed women. I adore Aviendha. ;D

[DPT24]

  I can't see  Perrin converting to the way of the leaf.  He's not a violent person, but, he's not going to let his lands get taken over or destroyed.