Mat's Plotline (Spoilers for the whole book)

[Swigaro]

It was less that Rand permenantly cut them off from the source, and more how it was described.  He doesn't cut anything, which is the way stilling is always describes.  He basicly grabs a weave they are actively maintaining and crushes it.  The theory is that this crushing stresses their ability to channel to the point that it is burned out, in the same way that messing with a Ter'Angrael can...

[Shimmer]

Mat's Hinderstap fighting was AWESOME!!!! And the Trustair entering plan was hilarious as well.

;D

[AvroChris]

I believe it will be Matt, Thom, and Noal. Noal has to do something in this series. He can't just be a by-standered. There are no by-standereds. I have been wondering what his purpose is in this and when I found out about the rescue, I just knew that it had to be Noal.

 

If it is Noal, maybe in the tower we will get answers about his past and who he really is. I think he is a darkfriend spying on Matt. Or someone trying to make up for something they did in their past that has to deal with the Shadow. I think the Shadow is somehow involved with Noal.

 

I highly doubt Olver will be the third person. But he has an involvment in the Tower as well. His role has concentrated on the game Snakes and Foxes the whole time. There is something there for him I think.

 

I have a feeling that Noal is actually Jain Farstrider - I think his "Jain was my cousin" was a quick lie about his past when Mat asked if he was any relation. This would tie in with his lack of memories and stories about Shara and suchlike.

Admittedly this is mainly a wild stab in the dark as I don't know too much about Jain Charin...

 

RE Mat, I think Hinderstap was mostly filler material to be honest. Just a way of keeping the main characters in the book without focusing too much on them. I seem to recall that they were present before now even in the books which were mainly focused on another character. It'll be interesting to see what his letter from Verin says :) It's a shame she died though, as I liked her "nasty but working for the good side" viewpoint, with the way she was ready to poison Cadsuane if she though she was a threat to Rand :D

[Vorkia]

I have to agree with Hinderstap seeming to be a filler, but I'm apprehensive to say that it is only filler.  We have to remember that GS is only 1/3 of the final book and its possible that it becomes a bit more relevant in the rest of the story (not sure how though). 

 

It is possible that it was only placed there to show us, in yet another way, how the pattern is unraveling (hence the new icon).  I reserve my right to pass judgment until the last 2/3 of the book is released.

[Phaedra Sedai]

I agree! Actually I'm pretty certain that it was stated flat out that this is what was going on in Hinderstrap.  The pattern was unraveling due to the DO and thus was trying to fix itself every morning but could not. Thus the endless loop for the poor village of Hinderstrap.

 

I actually really enjoyed Mat's POV in TGS.  He made me laugh out loud several times.  Yes he was different but I think that it actually was a planned difference.  After all he is getting older, he's seen so much and he cant really run from the responsibilty in his life any more.  He's changing because the circumstances of his life dictate that he has to.  All in all I thought he was incredibly well writen.  No one of course can write as RJ did but I believe BS did the best possible job of it that anyone could have.

 

I am most anxious to see what happens at Genji and how his marriage to Fortuona affects his relationship with Rand.

Am I the only one who thinks Hinderstap was NOT a bubble of evil but a result of the pattern unraveling?  It seems more akin to rooms being rearranged or ghosts walking around than to a pocket full of evil bursting open.  It seems to fit better, when a bubble pops there is a small burst and and the inside of the bubble meets the outside world for a brief time but then it dissipates.  It does not keep reoccurring in the same spot over and over again.

I'm leaning towards this as well.  First of all, the bubbles are *usually* attracted to ta'veren.  As far as we know, whats going on in Hinderstap seems to have been going on for at least a week or so, enough time for a few travelers/merchants to visit the town and for the mayor to have things somewhat worked out.  Secondly, all of the bubbles of evil we have seen so far have been short events, people spewing out bugs, the man becoming a piece of charcoal, etc.  The longest bubble that we have seen is a few hours long in the rebel Aes Sedai camp where Elayne and Nynaeve join a circle to go around healing people.  This makes me doubt that Hindersnap is in fact a bubble of evil, and is the pattern unraveling, simular to the fuzzy scenes we are now seeing after balefire has been used.

 

 

[ohaitharguiz]

Remember that what we are reading is 1/3 of a book. What seems like filler may not be filler at all when you put the books together.

[Dorkfiend]

I liked Mat's revised character.  Much has been said about Mat's trickster, prankish nature -- but we haven't actually seen that side of him since TEOTW.  It was very unJordanesque, but I think it worked well.

 

Hinderstap, OTOH, was all kinds of wrong.  It not only didn't read like RJ, it just felt wrong for the whole WOT world.  The chaos of Hinderstap was, well, too organized.  Look kids!  Instant reset!  From the situation to the folksy folks trapped in the town, the whole thing would have been much more believable in Steven King.

 

Plus which, Mat & company was trapped there after nightfall.  Why did they escape?  The whole thing made no sense, and then it devolved into something that read more like a transcript of a Doom MUD on a Friday night.  Eurgh.  I would have preferred that Harriet jerked this whole set of chapters, especially as it added precisely zilch to the plot.

 

[Nakor]

Plus which, Mat & company was trapped there after nightfall.  Why did they escape?

They didn't go to sleep in town.

[Dorkfiend]

Plus which, Mat & company was trapped there after nightfall.  Why did they escape?

They didn't go to sleep in town.

 

Neither did anyone else in the town.  They just went ape simultaneously.

 

Nor is it explained why they bothered gathering in all those crops that Mat bought.  Why bother, if it all just resets?  Or, when did they do it if they're all sitting around drinkin' all day?

[lillcheese]

Plus which, Mat & company was trapped there after nightfall.  Why did they escape?

They didn't go to sleep in town.

 

The first time the town went crazy, it started when the sun when down. Plenty of people were awake - the mayor said that those who hadn't gone to bed early didn't remember how they got into bed.  

 

Maybe there's a stay past midnight component, like a gremlin.  

 

Though, maybe a lack of intention to stay the night was key.  I believe the mayor said no one had broken the rules before.  Which means that every traveler who got stuck had planned on staying the night.  They became part of the town for that time period and so probably went crazy at sunset like the locals.  Mat et al had no intention of staying the night (after they were told it was forbidden). They stayed because they wanted to know what happened after sunset.  The town's ownership of them never attached without that intention.

 

 

Neither did anyone else in the town.  They just went ape simultaneously.

 

Nor is it explained why they bothered gathering in all those crops that Mat bought.  Why bother, if it all just resets?  Or, when did they do it if they're all sitting around drinkin' all day?

 

* They were trying to get rid of Mat by giving him what he wanted.  Time was short.

* The people reset & end up not dead.  Bloodstains of locals disappear.  Damage to property needs fixing. It seems that inanimate objects do not reset & can be removed from town.

[Dorkfiend]

 

<big snip>

 

* They were trying to get rid of Mat by giving him what he wanted.  Time was short.

 

That's not my point.  How did they have it in the first place?  Farming is an intensive effort.  These people don't seem to be particularly industrious, or have any reason to be.

 

 

[lillcheese]

 

<big snip>

 

* They were trying to get rid of Mat by giving him what he wanted.  Time was short.

 

That's not my point.  How did they have it in the first place?  Farming is an intensive effort.  These people don't seem to be particularly industrious, or have any reason to be.

 

The reset has only been occurring for a few months.  This is early/mid spring. The food they gathered were left over from the previous year's harvest.

 

Now, if we come back to town in 6 months, I think they'll have no food to share.

 

I wonder if people who starve to death would still reset each day. 

[Jambo]

I mentioned this on the tor.com Gathering Storm thread immediately after reading the book, and like a lot of ppl have already mentioned here, it's pretty obvious the Mat does not act like Mat. Now I'm not really complaining as I found his banter to be quite humorous, (actually sounded a lot like myself lol), but yeah, there's no doubt his character changed through BS's writing. I hadn't read the other books in a while so I didn't really notice or mind the change in Tal.'s character, but I'm sure if it's as bad as others are making it out to be i would've noticed had i read KoD before GS.

 

So like I said I didn't really mind the change in Mat, though I'll withhold my final judgement until he gets back to some good ol' fashion badassery (escaping from the town doesn't count), but what I did mind were two things:

 

1) Where the heck did Verin come from? I mean, I know she explained it and all that, but was that really necessary? It seems that her appearing was only to give Mat her letter, the effect of which we do not know...

 

2) So what important things happened it Mat's section? ..... well other than Verin's note, nothing. This upset me quite a bit actually, as Mat's part while not long, wasn't really short either. In my mind they could have been cut right out. Save Mat for the next book, and either make this book shorter, or add a part of the next book. This bothers me, I guess, because of the whole book splitting due to excess length. If scenes like this one were removed, or condensed, would we really have need the extra 3 books? Obv i don't know what the next 2 will be like in terms of "useless sections", but I hope there are little to none, and the 3 more books thing is justified. Otherwise, it'll appear that many ppl's worst fears were true, and that the 3 books instead of one was just a money grab....

 

I think if BS had wanted to he easily could have done a breif prologue meeting btw Mat and Verin and be done with it...

[dbristow21]

I have not seen this brought up yet but I wonder if Setalla will get a chance to look over all of Elayne's Ter'angreal when Mat and his group reach Caemlyn.. could be interesting assumeing she is the Aes sedi that was burned out study Ter'angreal

[Phaedra Sedai]

I know this has already been said but I feel it is worth repeating for those who feel the Mat/Hinderstrap scenes were just filler.  While it may turn out to be that way we are only dealing with 1/3 of the last book.  What happened in those scenes may turn out to be something really important, ie Verin's letter or what was going on in the town.

As regards why Mat and co could escape.  It was because they didnt die in the town.  If they had they would have woken up in a bed there and never been able to leave.  So for instance I forget who it was but the soldier who was wounded that Mat went back for, if he hadnt survived he would have become a permanent resident.  That is my understanding at least.

[Never Earth]

Plus which, Mat & company was trapped there after nightfall.  Why did they escape?

They didn't go to sleep in town.

 

The first time the town went crazy, it started when the sun when down. Plenty of people were awake - the mayor said that those who hadn't gone to bed early didn't remember how they got into bed.  

 

Maybe there's a stay past midnight component, like a gremlin.  

 

Though, maybe a lack of intention to stay the night was key.  I believe the mayor said no one had broken the rules before.  Which means that every traveler who got stuck had planned on staying the night.  They became part of the town for that time period and so probably went crazy at sunset like the locals.  Mat et al had no intention of staying the night (after they were told it was forbidden). They stayed because they wanted to know what happened after sunset.  The town's ownership of them never attached without that intention.

The people in town went crazy because of some sort of effect of the Dark One (bubble of evil, unraveling of the Pattern, or whatever). So many people dying caused some sort of snag in the Pattern, which caused it to reset itself -- so the event keeps happening. When a new person comes to town, they either follow the rules and leave or they get killed. When they're killed, they get stuck in the reset with the rest of the people. Mat and co. didn't get stuck because they managed to not die. The mayor explained that: people only get stuck there when they get killed there.

[Jonn]

I feel much the same about the Hinderstap sequence being pretty much filler and unnecessary.

 

We already had the disappearing village and the peddler and the screaming horses with Mat, which in my eyes was much creepier and much more disturbing. And it was really brief.

 

We had Perrin and the people being scared asking if he was alive or not...forget the name of the town.

Beetles eating people from the inside out. Men melting into coal...

Did we really need two chapters to go over a less creepy variant of these bubbles of evil? I think not.

I mentioned in another thread that the whole incident could have been mentioned in dialogue or even inner dialogue...it might have even been creepier.

 

The whole thing really just took me out of the book. It really is one of the most unfortunately bad sequences in the entire series.

The humor was chatty and dated. It took me a good while to settle back into the story and every little dialogue irregularity afterward just made me wince with the memory of how bad the subplot was.

[Crossroad]

I feel much the same about the Hinderstap sequence being pretty much filler and unnecessary

Yes I'm with u on this, we could have had a bit more of Perrin's quest but them the breaks.

[Demon_AS]

Of course Hinderstap was a filler! All the chapters which weren't devoted to Rand and Egwene were obviously put in just for us to be peripherally aware of what was going on with the other guys. After all, BS couldn't very well have just written about those two, could he? In this way, he gave us a taste of what the others were up to while he tied up the story arcs of Rand and Egwene for now.

 

I'm willing to bet that Towers of Midnight will focus much more on Mat, Perrin and Elayne (the latter whom, as we know, got no mention whatsoever in this book, beyond Rand reminiscing over stolen kisses in Tear).

 

I can't blame BS for how he laid this book out - 766 pages and we only got two real story-arcs out of it. The amount of plot left is still mammoth, and I am sure we'll see justice being done to other characters in the coming books :).

 

Also, having re-read the introductory chapter of Mat's in The Gathering Storm, I have to admit, it was pretty damn funny. Maybe Mat didn't come out exactly as I remember... but I still found the writing funny. I can forgive a lot in the name of humour! ;)

[ohaitharguiz]

Mat will definitely get a lot of focus in the next book. I don't think Elayne will have AS much as people are thinking, but she will definitely have a decent amount of plot. Perrin will also get his fair share, but I see him meeting up with Rand again, which will cut into his time. And I don't see how Rand couldn't have a lot of the book this close to the LB. And, almost forgot, Aviendha will get some time as well. I don't, however, think that we will see her inside the columns. I know this is a thread about Mat, but I saw some people talking about how much time he will get, so I had to address them all.

[Scraps]

Is it just me or do you guys think the reason that BS put Mat chapters in the book is to see what the fans thought of him and make appropriate changes for the next book? I personally think BS was worried about the Mat Arc and wanted feedback seeing as Mat's POV is so significant in the next book and because so many people love Mat.

 

BS has constantly stated that he browses forums to check out everyone's opinion. From my impression of the posts, everyone is kinda sad that RJ's mat is dead, and thought the BS Mat is hilarious. If BS is encouraged by the responses to his Mat, then we might get a more BS Mat. If he's discouraged, he may try really hard to get Mat perfected in RJ's vision.

 

Thoughts?

[Jonn]

Of course Hinderstap was a filler! All the chapters which weren't devoted to Rand and Egwene were obviously put in just for us to be peripherally aware of what was going on with the other guys. After all, BS couldn't very well have just written about those two, could he? In this way, he gave us a taste of what the others were up to while he tied up the story arcs of Rand and Egwene for now.

 

I'm willing to bet that Towers of Midnight will focus much more on Mat, Perrin and Elayne (the latter whom, as we know, got no mention whatsoever in this book, beyond Rand reminiscing over stolen kisses in Tear).

 

I can't blame BS for how he laid this book out - 766 pages and we only got two real story-arcs out of it. The amount of plot left is still mammoth, and I am sure we'll see justice being done to other characters in the coming books :).

 

Also, having re-read the introductory chapter of Mat's in The Gathering Storm, I have to admit, it was pretty damn funny. Maybe Mat didn't come out exactly as I remember... but I still found the writing funny. I can forgive a lot in the name of humour! ;)

 

I quite disagree with the inference that everyone besides Rand and Egwene were supposed to just be filler. Sanderson had a responsibility to put the pieces in a certain position and to do so intriguingly while maintaining a tone.

 

!!Spoiler!!!

 

Mat had to have ended up in Caemlyn after meeting up with Verin briefly. He was to be about his quest to move towards the Tower of Ghenjei. We also got glimpses of the subplot involving Aludra and her weapons and Mat's new role as Prince of Ravens.

 

That's really all that needed to happen. He's had tons of good exposure over the last few books. Did we really need the elaborate set up with him gambling yet again, the dice in his head AGAIN?

 

Robert Jordan had already well established this character as one that often struggled to have people take him seriously, who got himself into trouble by acting rashly or by jumping to conclusions a little too quickly.

I never took him for a character who would just randomly say a bunch of dumb stuff to get a cheap laugh from someone like Talmanes.

Talmanes, what made him so funny was how dour and serious he was and EVERY SO RARELY, he'd make a dry remark with a straight face that may or may not have been a jab or a joke at Mat's or someone else's expense, but he'd never so much as crack a smile. He used to be very subtle.

Vanin would never hesitate to show his feelings, while Talmanes in contrast, you were never sure he had feelings.

That's what that was, and in this book they were all changed into a bunch of buffoons at some point.

It was very off-putting.

I remember feeling similar feelings reading some of Sanderson's other work, namely Warbreaker, where characters would just not feel solid enough to make a sudden character change and remain plausible in their actions. It bothered me.

 

There were little cracks leading up to this point that were noticeable, but I was willing to forgive, as the plot really was moving well and was written well for the most part, but it was at this stage where the whole thing almost fell apart for me. The momentum just stopped dead for me right here and afterward it was so fitful, it never did seem to recover until Egwene's taking over the fight against the Seanchan raid, until her triumph at her second Raising.

 

It's quite a shame really. I truly did want to love this book, but it was at this point with Mat's arc where I was let down and never truly had a chance to get back into it fully. the book would have been better served if the Hinderstap sequence was never even in it.

[Jonn]

Is it just me or do you guys think the reason that BS put Mat chapters in the book is to see what the fans thought of him and make appropriate changes for the next book? I personally think BS was worried about the Mat Arc and wanted feedback seeing as Mat's POV is so significant in the next book and because so many people love Mat.

 

BS has constantly stated that he browses forums to check out everyone's opinion. From my impression of the posts, everyone is kinda sad that RJ's mat is dead, and thought the BS Mat is hilarious. If BS is encouraged by the responses to his Mat, then we might get a more BS Mat. If he's discouraged, he may try really hard to get Mat perfected in RJ's vision.

 

Thoughts?

 

Honestly Scraps, I don't think that it's very appropriate to use a published book in a beloved series to gain opinions about how you should continue to write that series. You either stick to a script or ask one of RJ's staff for some clarification. Ask Harriet...or simply come to your own conclusion about how it should be written, but for goodness sakes take responsibility for how you write it because you should well know that in Sanderson's shoes, his characterizations or deviations from RJ's tone will be highly scrutinized.

I've come to the opinion that this is an example that shows us that Sanderson probably needed a bit more time to figure out his tone and character in this section.

Better yet, he should have had an editing eye and though about being simpler with the whole thing.

Mat's been a major POV over the last few books, and I really don't think he needed another semi-heroic scene.

Perrin on the other hand, I think really needed a pick up to re-establish his heroic status. I think Sanderson missed the opportunity.

Instead Mat's character gets a bad treatment and you get Perrin even further alienated from what he was in Shadow Rising.

I mean...antagonizing Hopper as a guide? Another thing that made me want to spit with frustration.

Filler or not, these characters must be treated with better care, not used as an experiment or as inconsequential pawns to the bigger plot.

[Scraps]

Is it just me or do you guys think the reason that BS put Mat chapters in the book is to see what the fans thought of him and make appropriate changes for the next book? I personally think BS was worried about the Mat Arc and wanted feedback seeing as Mat's POV is so significant in the next book and because so many people love Mat.

 

BS has constantly stated that he browses forums to check out everyone's opinion. From my impression of the posts, everyone is kinda sad that RJ's mat is dead, and thought the BS Mat is hilarious. If BS is encouraged by the responses to his Mat, then we might get a more BS Mat. If he's discouraged, he may try really hard to get Mat perfected in RJ's vision.

 

Thoughts?

 

Honestly Scraps, I don't think that it's very appropriate to use a published book in a beloved series to gain opinions about how you should continue to write that series. You either stick to a script or ask one of RJ's staff for some clarification. Ask Harriet...or simply come to your own conclusion about how it should be written, but for goodness sakes take responsibility for how you write it because you should well know that in Sanderson's shoes, his characterizations or deviations from RJ's tone will be highly scrutinized.

I've come to the opinion that this is an example that shows us that Sanderson probably needed a bit more time to figure out his tone and character in this section.

Better yet, he should have had an editing eye and though about being simpler with the whole thing.

Mat's been a major POV over the last few books, and I really don't think he needed another semi-heroic scene.

Perrin on the other hand, I think really needed a pick up to re-establish his heroic status. I think Sanderson missed the opportunity.

Instead Mat's character gets a bad treatment and you get Perrin even further alienated from what he was in Shadow Rising.

I mean...antagonizing Hopper as a guide? Another thing that made me want to spit with frustration.

Filler or not, these characters must be treated with better care, not used as an experiment or as inconsequential pawns to the bigger plot.

 

Mm, I was about to edit my post, but you went to the heart of what I wanted to add. What happened to these expert WOT editors that were reading the book? Didn't they pick up that Mat was written differently? I know alot of people are going to hassle me about this, but for the sake of the books, maybe they should be delayed until BS gets it right with key figures. I mean, RJ went through plenty of drafts before each of his books were done. Why does BS have to rush simply because we want to read it asap?

 

EDIT: Oh and jonn, it;s not appropriate to use the book to test things out, but what is appropriate/idealistic and what is reality are not hand in hand. This could very well have been BS's dip of his toes in the water on a very unimportant part of Mat's arc. If mat turns into RJ Mat in the next book, it's easy for us to pretend that the mistake/mat offness didnt occur.

[coteaz]

I honestly dont think he was that bad, he was slightly off yes, but you could easily contribute this to his change of circumstances, his marriage and rand's ta'veren tugging at him again.