Mat's Plotline (Spoilers for the whole book)

[singogreatest360]

I thought it was funny and true to Mat.....

 

I didn't feel like it rambled on! Real conversations can take a long time. Especially when one person is doing all the talking and have something on their mind they want to express(Newly-wed/worried about the safety of wife). My father used to go on with this type humour ALL the time while telling me never to get married. He used to go on alot longer then Mat did.

[Razor]

I thought all the careful planning by Mat was very in character. He was planning a military action with the band.  True an unusual one, but a military action none the less.  HE always planned military actions carefully.  As this one was probably outside his usual area of expeertice he took a little longer planning than usual.

[richnewton82]

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[Jonn]

I gotta say there is a note of desperate denial in a lot of people's tones, defending against pretty valid criticism.

It was quite clearly different from what we've come to expect from the quality of the series and much more different than just most of the rest of the Gathering Storm even. It stood out...obviously, and not just to rabid Mat fans. I don't count myself among them, but this offering of the character was unsatisfactory for me to the point that it was distracting.

 

I honestly enjoyed the majority of the rest of the book. Mat's portion pretty much ruined it for me. It's sad. Even sadder are the many who are holding onto this portrayal as anything approaching acceptable.

 

I'm quite certain years from now many will look back on this gaffe as one of the worst moments in the series.

[Tel Janin]

I'm not trying to start anything, Jonn, and no offense meant, but since I'm kinda sitting the fence on this one (or playing Dark One's Advocate), I thought I'd let you know that you've kinda come off (at least from my perspective) as one of the 'rabid Mat fans'.  Nothing personal; just my opinion.

 

I think Mat has more loose ends than any other character in the series, excepting maybe Rand.  He's got to meet up with the rest of his army, and then the Legion of the Dragon; he's got to deal with Verin's letter, he's got to rescue Moiraine; he's got to deal with his wife; he's got to employ gunpowder-based artillery; etc. (and this is in no way a complete list).  He's gonna be a busy boy in the next two books...

[blackjon]

I gotta say there is a note of desperate denial in a lot of people's tones, defending against pretty valid criticism.

It was quite clearly different from what we've come to expect from the quality of the series and much more different than just most of the rest of the Gathering Storm even. It stood out...obviously, and not just to rabid Mat fans. I don't count myself among them, but this offering of the character was unsatisfactory for me to the point that it was distracting.

 

I honestly enjoyed the majority of the rest of the book. Mat's portion pretty much ruined it for me. It's sad. Even sadder are the many who are holding onto this portrayal as anything approaching acceptable.

 

I'm quite certain years from now many will look back on this gaffe as one of the worst moments in the series.

 

The reverse could be quite easily applied to you lad, looks like you are determined to see the worst in the face of valid objections from others  ;D

 

anyway on a snakes and foxes note maybe it 'is' possible to win at the game, but noone ever has, as it requires such epic feats as rolling double six twelve times in a row while the snakes and foxes roll a one twelve times in a row... but hey, maybe with mat's luck ;)

[richnewton82]

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[Jonn]

I'm not trying to start anything, Jonn, and no offense meant, but since I'm kinda sitting the fence on this one (or playing Dark One's Advocate), I thought I'd let you know that you've kinda come off (at least from my perspective) as one of the 'rabid Mat fans'.  Nothing personal; just my opinion.

 

 

No offense taken. Actually, my favorite character at the moment is Egwene. Used to be Perrin. I love Aviendha, but she really doesn't get the screen time she deserves.

 

Yeah, my real favorite character kind of peaked in Shadow Rising, did Perrin Aybara. I've always respected Moiraine the most, but Perrin was so human, even more so than the other two ta'veren.

Mat started out as just so much of a whiner and a troublemaker.

 

Anyhow, Mat isn't my favorite by a fair margin, nor will he be. He never was a true favorite of mine, but there are certain standards that I hold for these characters and whether I like them or not means nothing compared to what is expected of this series of books, the consistencies of tone, characterization and the professionalism one shows in treating the fans with some respect.

 

Long time fans like myself KNOW when there is a noticeable change. And it's not just that it's only slightly noticeable in Mat's chapters. It's noticeable in a bad way. I'm sorry if this is callous towards Brandon Sanderson, but I DO NOT want to notice him when he's writing this series. I don't want any flourishes or attempts to be a hero and try to write it his way just to prove something. Sanderson claimed that it was an honor to accept this task, and he should show it by saving us all the anguish of improvising his own style into the work.

 

If he's going to change anything, it should complement and enhance RJ's style, not provide a contrast or jar us in any way.

Mat's sections were just the biggest examples of how noticeable someone insisting on their own style over RJ's can be.

You can do some good work providing a contrast, but then again, you can do some really awful work. The majority of Mat's sections were awful to me.

In contrast, I was really appreciative and in love with Egwene's sections. I could feel Sanderson's presence in equal measure to RJ's and frankly I think this is what people want.

 

We understand RJ is gone as painful as that is. We just want to hold onto him in these last few books that much longer. In a real sense, Sanderson must keep RJ's voice alive. He won't be successful if he continues to interject himself too much into RJ's style and vision. He must find that balance, and sadly Mat's sections illustrated how badly off balance Sanderson's writing can get.

[Sharaman]

@Jonn, As a sometime collaborative writer, I'd suggest that Mat's scenes had been sketched in notes by RJ and a change in his mindset and character was marked in those notes. For example, he's married, and shocked at the concept, and at being a nobleman, etc. Also possibly, the more developed take on Talmanes' sense of humour.

BS fleshed those changes in, his way. It doesn't work for you, fair enough. I think it worked well enough.

Don't think it's a gaffe and nobody should see it as one.

There are other little changes in style, which are visible in BS versus RJ. Less colourful "bear with sore teeth" metaphors, the use of Americanisms like"riled", a somewhat more colloquial use of inverted commas in statements like "He'd done it" versus " He had done it". This is always going to happen when you have an established writer with a well-developed style offset against another established writer with a developed style. There's no sign that BS was deliberately over-writing, just describing stuff the way he normally would, which happens to be different from RJ. Far better that BS write like BS than try to channel RJ and end up doing a bad parody.

 

 

   

[jemron]

@Jonn, As a sometime collaborative writer, I'd suggest that Mat's scenes had been sketched in notes by RJ and a change in his mindset and character was marked in those notes. For example, he's married, and shocked at the concept, and at being a nobleman, etc. Also possibly, the more developed take on Talmanes' sense of humour.

BS fleshed those changes in, his way. It doesn't work for you, fair enough. I think it worked well enough.

Don't think it's a gaffe and nobody should see it as one.

There are other little changes in style, which are visible in BS versus RJ. Less colourful "bear with sore teeth" metaphors, the use of Americanisms like"riled", a somewhat more colloquial use of inverted commas in statements like "He'd done it" versus " He had done it". This is always going to happen when you have an established writer with a well-developed style offset against another established writer with a developed style. There's no sign that BS was deliberately over-writing, just describing stuff the way he normally would, which happens to be different from RJ. Far better that BS write like BS than try to channel RJ and end up doing a bad parody.

 

 

     

 

Agreed.

[Vaerraent]

Agreed. And I'm no writer or even a real WOT geek but IIRC I read that Mat was based on somebody RJ knew in 'nam, or maybe based upon a characterization on a number of different veteran's way of dealing with things. A lot of his books are, after all, dealing with inner pain and trauma. Considering that the character of Mat has been constantly screwed over wherever he went (Shadar Logoth, the girls 'No Thanks' when he tried to save them in the stone, the aelfinn and eelfinn to name but a few) he's really put up with a lot. Finally fate decides to send him a big middle finger and get this rogue married to a princess soon-to-be empress from a culture full of his two pet hates (nobility and channelers). Of course, he's also expected to command an army because of memories and luck that he didn't really ask for and he's almost died countless times, maybe has died once. Maybe humor is just his way of dealing with that.

[dmanmiller34]

Yes there was a a difference in the Writing but It did not distract from anything. He was still Matt to me even if he was a little stiff in the saddle. I find no lasting Fault in his portrayal of him. I am exiting to see how things go in the next book. :)

[RaZeR]

Ooi, I can tell the switch between authors is gonna cause some sniveling.

 

 

 

I think right now its important to remember that the beloved creator of the WoT fell prey to blood cancer. He is gone. Forever. The One Power cannot bring him back.(My respects to the family)

 

 

Besides the tragedy of his death, we as fans are left with a problem, and there are two solutions.

 

A) Let this series pass on with its author.

 

 

B) Let this series be written by another.

 

 

 

I can tell you the first option left a VERY VERY VERY bitter taste in my mouth. How can this thing just die?!? It seems his family felt the same way.

 

So here we are at present....RJ's wife has chosen someone to finish this bad boy, and he is a third of the way done.

 

Are you gonna read them or no? They could have hired Rush Limbaugh to write the durned thing and I still would have read at least one!

 

 

SO we have Brandon Sanderson trying to write the finale of what is, in my OPINION a fantasy fiction enthusiast, the largest most epic series of all time.

 

 

You can nit-pick things if you want to. I was kinda thrown off a bit by the use of the word carbon also. But we arent reading RJ. We reading Brandon Sanderson. And really, thats all there is to it.

 

 

 

Now, specifically, about Mat....Im glad the boy has some life in him! Im 28, and in my younger days spent some time in bars and pubs, played darts here and rolled dice there.

 

If anyone else has ever spent much time in these places, then you know Brandon Sanderson has done a better job than RJ ever did of capturing the spirit of the scoundrel. The banter between Mat and Talmanes was great, but underneath this somewhat modified personality, you catch glimpses of the same, frustrated Mat that has been with us since the beginning.

 

The Mat that always talk so self servingly, but in the end always self sacrifices to help someone else.

 

While it is a obvious change in the styles, I dont think people will look back and think it was a huge mistake.

 

More likely they will look back and chuckle that it once upset them at all.

[Jonn]

I'll say it again.

I think the majority of the book was well written, and the same "nit picking" flaws existed outside of Mat's parts so to speak.

 

It's just that combined with the fact that it was just silly thing after silly thing added in on top of one another. It was just too much for me, and that's unfortunately tarnished the experience I've had with this book, which I devoured up until Mat's chapters.

 

I even liked portions of Perrin's parts for little details, but again a few other details were a little off putting.

I think it got a little heavy handed with Faile's feelings about her entourage and Rolan's Brotherless. Overall though, thought it was more than tolerable.

 

Mat's sequences alone are responsible for the hesitation I have now for this series going on. I do not want to feel that way about this series in the end...

 

That I have to for some reason sacrifice what I expect of this series just to be nice to an author who has the opportunity of a lifetime to finish one of the biggest most epic fiction offerings seen in a generation.

 

That's a big responsibility and the sooner he realizes that the criticism can and will be fairly unforgiving, the better he will take care to preserve the feel and vision without messing about.

 

I mean, I even hated the dialogue with Thom Merrilin. Man, I especially hated it, because neither of them seemed quite like themselves. They were talking in reference to things from the last book as if that were natural or even necessary. We are dealing with an author in Robert Jordan, who would build up to a moment when a character would finally say something directly meaningful to another regarding important matters. Then you had Mat sitting there talking openly about something very personal between them in hearing of others around them as if that is normal.

 

If some of you are willing to compromise more with Sanderson, then so be it, but I've spent 16 years with this series rattling in my brain, waiting for the final moments, and to have that momentum stall out over cheap bits about being funny and banter.

 

That's personal, and I have no problem saying that I don't like it and never will like it. And I'll say so again and again most likely.

[Vambram]

No one is trying to force you to like what you do not like in TGS. But at the same time, you really ought not to appear to post so smugly, appearing to look down a bit judgmentally upon those whom do not agree with your analysis of what you (whom I doubt has ever had a fantasy novel published) think is wrong with what Brandon Sanderson has written, Harriet MacDougal has edited and Team Jordan have researched from RJ's notes.

 

 

I do not want to take away your right to complain, nor would I want to do that.  Like you, I have been reading and re-reading the WOT many times since I read tEotW in 1991. Like you, I believe without a doubt that the WOT is the very best epic fantasy series that has ever been written.

 

 

Unlike you, sir, I do NOT want nor desire to be "nit picky" with the final 3 books that we are going to be allowed to read to finish the WOT in epic style. I choose to NOT be nit-pick because I do NOT want nor desire to allow tiny, small complaints about what I believe are relatively insignifincant nit-pick details. I allowed myself to read and enjoy the POVs of Thom and Mat and Perrin in this book. I enjoyed Mat's part in the plotline of TGS. I did not find anything wrong with Thom's voice. But then again, when I read The Gathering Storm, I did not do so with an attempt to try to find stuff in the book that I would not like.

[Charlz Guybon]

I gotta say there is a note of desperate denial in a lot of people's tones, defending against pretty valid criticism.

It was quite clearly different from what we've come to expect from the quality of the series and much more different than just most of the rest of the Gathering Storm even. It stood out...obviously, and not just to rabid Mat fans. I don't count myself among them, but this offering of the character was unsatisfactory for me to the point that it was distracting.

 

I honestly enjoyed the majority of the rest of the book. Mat's portion pretty much ruined it for me. It's sad. Even sadder are the many who are holding onto this portrayal as anything approaching acceptable.

 

I'm quite certain years from now many will look back on this gaffe as one of the worst moments in the series.

I honestly liked it. I laughed more reading that scene than I think I've ever done for a Mat POV before. People do have different tastes you know.

 

You didn't like it, that's okay, you are allowed to have your own opinion. Just don't tell us that did like it, that we're wrong for liking it or that we're in denial. That's simply intolerant and offensive.

[RaZeR]

I'll say it again.

I think the majority of the book was well written, and the same "nit picking" flaws existed outside of Mat's parts so to speak.

 

It's just that combined with the fact that it was just silly thing after silly thing added in on top of one another. It was just too much for me, and that's unfortunately tarnished the experience I've had with this book, which I devoured up until Mat's chapters.

 

I even liked portions of Perrin's parts for little details, but again a few other details were a little off putting.

I think it got a little heavy handed with Faile's feelings about her entourage and Rolan's Brotherless. Overall though, thought it was more than tolerable.

 

Mat's sequences alone are responsible for the hesitation I have now for this series going on. I do not want to feel that way about this series in the end...

 

That I have to for some reason sacrifice what I expect of this series just to be nice to an author who has the opportunity of a lifetime to finish one of the biggest most epic fiction offerings seen in a generation.

 

That's a big responsibility and the sooner he realizes that the criticism can and will be fairly unforgiving, the better he will take care to preserve the feel and vision without messing about.

 

I mean, I even hated the dialogue with Thom Merrilin. Man, I especially hated it, because neither of them seemed quite like themselves. They were talking in reference to things from the last book as if that were natural or even necessary. We are dealing with an author in Robert Jordan, who would build up to a moment when a character would finally say something directly meaningful to another regarding important matters. Then you had Mat sitting there talking openly about something very personal between them in hearing of others around them as if that is normal.

 

If some of you are willing to compromise more with Sanderson, then so be it, but I've spent 16 years with this series rattling in my brain, waiting for the final moments, and to have that momentum stall out over cheap bits about being funny and banter.

 

That's personal, and I have no problem saying that I don't like it and never will like it. And I'll say so again and again most likely.

 

 

Then don't be suprised when you opinion becomes less and less valuable as time goes on.

 

You call them nit-picky flaws. We are calling them differences of style. Clinging on to RJ doesnt help you here. Because RJ cant finish these series.

 

 

Sanderson can. And you could go find another series if it bothers you so.

[Exy]

I honestly enjoyed the majority of the rest of the book. Mat's portion pretty much ruined it for me. It's sad. Even sadder are the many who are holding onto this portrayal as anything approaching acceptable.

It's just so . . . sad that there are people who don't share your opinion!!!!

[NARISMA]

Can somebody write me Detailed summary of Mat's plotline.I didn't get the book yet.

[Aleron688]

Can somebody write me Detailed summary of Mat's plotline.I didn't get the book yet.

 

Yes.

 

He travels to Caemlyn.

on the way he meets a town with zombies

he then learns that someone is looking for him

it is verin.

verin gives him a letter and then transports him to Caemlyn where he will wait ten days before opening the letter.  he has the option not to, but he will... no worries

 

 

there, i did it.

[Diederichos]

I think the big problem is that the book showed some uneven-ness in this. The other sections were great, Rand's was awesome(that dockmaster in Bandar Eban scene was priceless), but then there's the Mat section. What happens in it externally is good, zombie village, a bit out of the left field but why not, Verin's appearance also good. The bit with Thom Merrilin, also great. The bit about women, again, great.

 

But here's the thing, Talmanes is not Talmanes of the past books, this isn't evolution this is a personality transplant. And then there's the way he converses casually with Mandevwin, I think the last parts in KoD showed that Mat accepted that he was their leader, not their buddy, their leader and that there was going to be a certain gap between them. And in turn how Mandevwin behaved, he was a newly-introduced character, but really, what the heck was the point of using a non-nobleman for this? If any of the noblemen that came Talmanes played the part of Mandevwin, it would have made much more sense given that they, as noblemen, still feel that there isn't much difference between them and Mat and more so because they know him personally.

 

Also, the background thing was milked for laughs, which is not entirely bad as Mat was gonna play filler all the way. But he used the wrong character, Mandevwin should have been portrayed by Reimon because he's a character that would say what were said which really are between friends. Talmanes should have been more dour and stoic, the straight man to Mat's hyperbole.

 

I think it all boils down to this now that I think about it, the wrong characters were used for the comedy bit and in Talmanes case, he was done a wrong way.

[Muad Cheade]

But here's the thing, Talmanes is not Talmanes of the past books, this isn't evolution this is a personality transplant. And then there's the way he converses casually with Mandevwin, I think the last parts in KoD showed that Mat accepted that he was their leader, not their buddy, their leader and that there was going to be a certain gap between them. And in turn how Mandevwin behaved, he was a newly-introduced character, but really, what the heck was the point of using a non-nobleman for this? If any of the noblemen that came Talmanes played the part of Mandevwin, it would have made much more sense given that they, as noblemen, still feel that there isn't much difference between them and Mat and more so because they know him personally.

 

We haven't had that many scenes with Talmanes in them. In those scenes, Jordan has said Talmanes rarely laughs and smiles occasionally. That fit exactly into what Sanderson wrote (we don't actually even know if he wrote that). Mat notes that at a superficial glance, Talmanes seems to be a sober person, but in actuality, he is one who laughs at the world internally. It fit perfectly in my opinion.

 

In KoD, we see Mandevwin having a command of more men than the other nobles had combined (the four thousand mounted crossbowmen). Mat has always been close with his leiutenants. Should he not be the same with Mandevwin? Daerid is not a nobleman, so is he not also allowed to converse with Mat? Also, Mat is shown to be more friendly with commoners than with nobleman, finally Mandevwin is Talmanes' second and has been with the Band since Cairhien, so he would know Mat better than most.

[Diederichos]

Mandevwin I thought of as a senior officer, not an actual independent commander, Reimon does as do the other commanders but Mat is always there with Mandevwin. Daerid is an actual general and a very competent one at that, add to this that he knows Mat personally. Mandevwin is some random character thrown together to add colour in KoD and never once does it say that he's a banner-general or anything. And who exactly says that Mandevwin is Talmanes' second, where does it say that in the books?

 

There is a personal relation that's been developed between Daerid, Talmanes and these lordlings and Mat, the first mention of Mandev is in KoD and he does not once show that he treats Mat as anything but his superior, not a friend. Contrast that to how Reimon and the others and Mat were acting in the tent when they arrived at the camp. And suddenly he's best buds with this guy, enough for Mandevwin to call him as 'Mat'? I don't buy that.

 

'Twinkle in his eye'. That's all I have to say about the Talmanes bit.

 

Edit: He's a captain, not a general and certainly not Talmanes' 2iC.

[Worm]

There's no point denying that Mats character changed alot and it didn't entirely fit with what we've seen before. I liked those scenes, they actually made me laugh out loud, but I feel they would have worked better if (I think someone else said this) they changed the characters roles around.

 

I'd have expected Mat to be frantic about the fact he has been trapped into marrying someone and to spend alot of time not to think about it. At the same time the others (talmanes etc) would be constantly nudging the conversation towards the topic of marriage to aggrevate him in a friendly way. I can see some hilarious scenes that could have been created and they wouldn't have had to change anyones character in a unexpected way.

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one who didn't like some of the parts just because they didn't seem quite right. The conversation between Thom and Mat was just odd. I know people are saying that Mat's change is deliberate but I expected more "not gonna give up gambling or drinking" scenes as opposed to "wow Thom thanks for saving by bony ass from those zombie people".

[richnewton82]

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