A song of Ice and Fire, discussion (spoilers)

[JenniferL]

Werthead>> How do you see the timing of the releases of ADWD and Towers of Midnight? Surely they are not going to go head to head. I think that would just be counter-productive to both if they release too close together. Therefore, I foresee a early 2011 release of Dance to drum up excitement for the HBO series.

 

 

I don't think it'll be a problem if they are released close together, or even on the same day. I plan to read both. I may end up buying WoT first and reading it before ASOIAF, but that doesn't mean I don't want to read anything else.  If GRRM finishes in time for a spring release, then you have him going up against Pat Rothfuss's next release. But again, I don't think it'll impact anything other than first week sales. Overall sales will still be the same.

[Werthead]

Werthead>> How do you see the timing of the releases of ADWD and Towers of Midnight? Surely they are not going to go head to head. I think that would just be counter-productive to both if they release too close together. Therefore, I foresee a early 2011 release of Dance to drum up excitement for the HBO series.

 

It is something of an issue. Aside from TOWERS, DRAGONS is the only fantasy release in the entire year that will almost certainly hit #1 on the bestseller lists, and Tor and Bantam, both being strong proponents of the genre and its growing popularity and profile, wouldn't want to get into an unnecessary competition with one another. Martin is also published by Tor for his WILD CARDS books, and out of professional courtesy and his friendship with Robert Jordan probably wouldn't want to endanger TOWERS hitting the top spot (not that that risk is that great to be honest; in such a competition TOWERS would win, although DRAGONS would give it a good run).

 

So my guess is that they would simply tweak the dates so they released 2-3 weeks apart, which is pretty much what happened in 2005 when A FEAST FOR CROWS came out two weeks ahead of KNIFE OF DREAMS and both hit the #1 spot on the NYT bestseller list, and everyone was happy.

[Kadere]

I get the feeling ADwD is coming next spring. However, Tad William's Shadowheart is coming out the same day as Towers of Midnight and will likely get it's ass kicked on the NYT list, but I'll be buying both that day.

[The Fisher King]

I am checking YES.

 

And, I am not just referring to the fact that 62 is not super young. I mean, death is about so much more than finishing a stupid book series (even one Im addicted to, lol).

 

Look at WOT. I mean, wouldn't we all - without even blinking - give up every WOT Book we ever read to give Harriet her husband back? Of course.

 

Regarding *ASOIAF* though, I mean so many OTHER contributing factors, imo. I read where GRRM had stated on his site/blog that he had been consumed by ''other interests'' besides writing ADWD.

 

Thats cool. Its his life.

 

Im just looking at facts. He cannot write *Quality* 700-800 page books enough to finish the series AT THE PACE he has gone at for the last 2 and realistically finish the series.

 

I personally suspect he has a goal of 2 more books. To finish DANCE then try to rush one last one out to at least tie up loose ends...

 

Ahhhh...what could have been...

 

(DAMN you HBO!!! - LOL!!!)  ;)

 

 

 

Fish

 

 

[Werthead]

Regarding *ASOIAF* though, I mean so many OTHER contributing factors, imo. I read where GRRM had stated on his site/blog that he had been consumed by ''other interests'' besides writing ADWD.

 

I don't see where he's said that. Martin has 'other interests' than just writing ASoIaF and some of them are professional interests, taking a couple of weeks off ASoIaF each yet to edit a new WILD CARDS book and a new anthology, but if you mean has he dropped ASoIaF for months on end to pursue other projects, that has never happened.

 

Im just looking at facts. He cannot write *Quality* 700-800 page books enough to finish the series AT THE PACE he has gone at for the last 2 and realistically finish the series.

 

Well, if you're not saying that because of concerns about his mortality, I don't see why not. AFFC took 5 years to come out, ADWD looks like it's going to be 5-5.5 years, so for the last two it might take another ten years. A long time, yes, but he'd only be 71 at that point. Compare to Gene Wolfe, still publishing at 78 and Brian Aldiss at 85.

 

I personally suspect he has a goal of 2 more books. To finish DANCE then try to rush one last one out to at least tie up loose ends...

 

He has a goal of two more books after DANCE. There is no possible way to round this thing off in THE WINDS OF WINTER by itself. There's just too much going on. I suspect WINDS will be the story of Daenerys's invasion of Westeros and the Others beginning their assault on the Wall, with A DREAM OF SPRING acting as the grand conclusion. I can't see them combining Dany's invasion and the defeat of the Others in one book, not with everything else that's going on.

[Tsunami]

A Dream of Spring?

 

Sounds a lot like A Memory of Light.

[Werthead]

A Dream of Spring?

 

Sounds a lot like A Memory of Light.

 

It's not a great title. I preferred the working title, A TIME FOR WOLVES, even if that was also a little cheesy.

[The Fisher King]

I am going to feel monumentally cheated if I don't get ''A Time For Wolves'' !!! GRRR!

 

3 is always better than 2! I was waiting for ADWD, ATFW and ADofSpring.

 

ATFW was supposed to be the best of the last 3 anyway and not just because I unabashed Stark-Lover.

 

 

Fish

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

 

 

 

As awesome as the books are, GRRM seems like a creepy Santa....

[Rufae]

***SPOILERISH***

 

 

 

I think it is pretty certain that Dany's "invasion" will be before the Other's attack. She has to be in place on the battlefield or else it will fall flat.

 

I don't Dany will be invading so much as being allowed a return by a group or two. The Ironmen seem keen on bringing her over. The Dornish folks combined with the Citadel seem keen on it as well.

[Hallow]

***SPOILERISH***

 

 

 

I think it is pretty certain that Dany's "invasion" will be before the Other's attack. She has to be in place on the battlefield or else it will fall flat.

 

I don't Dany will be invading so much as being allowed a return by a group or two. The Ironmen seem keen on bringing her over. The Dornish folks combined with the Citadel seem keen on it as well.

 

I think the Ironmen seem keen on "stealing" her dragon with the dragon horn that Euron displayed to the rest of the captains. Dorne is most definatley an ally of Dany though.

[egwenes#1hater]

hey guys i was just wondering if anyone knows how i can find the mystery knight , that short story that GRRM wrote. any help would be much appreciated.

 

 

with that being said, i agree with Sam that Dany has to be in Westeros already when the Others attack

[Kadere]

hey guys i was just wondering if anyone knows how i can find the mystery knight , that short story that GRRM wrote. any help would be much appreciated.

 

Go buy George's anthology "Warriors" which came out last fall.

[TheBeerPatriot]

I get the feeling ADwD is coming next spring. However, Tad William's Shadowheart is coming out the same day as Towers of Midnight and will likely get it's ass kicked on the NYT list, but I'll be buying both that day.

Wow, I had missed that Shadowheart was being released on the same day.  Talk about crap luck, sheesh.  Love Tad Wiliams, but it's ToM and nothing else on that day

[Werthead]

I think it is pretty certain that Dany's "invasion" will be before the Other's attack. She has to be in place on the battlefield or else it will fall flat.

 

I dont't think so. Where's the fun in Dany turning up, taking King's Landing and being proclaimed Queen, and then orderly taking her forces up north to kill the others?

 

Far more interesting to have complete and total chaos going on. The Others breach the Wall, flood into the North, the Night's Watch and Stannis and the wildlings are hard-pressed fighting them, whilst the Tyrells and Lannisters are having a monstrous falling out with the Faith (and with one another) for control of King's Landing with these confused reports coming south about all hell breaking loose, and then Daenerys turns up with an army and her dragons. Complete bedlam, always more fun :)

 

I don't Dany will be invading so much as being allowed a return by a group or two. The Ironmen seem keen on bringing her over. The Dornish folks combined with the Citadel seem keen on it as well.

 

The Citadel wants the dragons dead and gone. Marwyn is quite keen for her to return, but the Archmaesters themselves seem very much against anything 'magical' being in the world.

 

An interesting twist would be if Victarion uses his dragon horn to take control of Dany's dragons and then imprisons Dany and returns to Westeros with her as his prisoner, leaving her supporters to follow as best they can. That would put a different stint on the massive invasion everyone is expecting.

[Rufae]

Complete bedlam, always more fun

 

True that.

 

An interesting twist would be if Victarion uses his dragon horn to take control of Dany's dragons and then imprisons Dany and returns to Westeros with her as his prisoner, leaving her supporters to follow as best they can. That would put a different stint on the massive invasion everyone is expecting.

 

Only problem with that is that the horn's affects only lasts a few hours. Once it wears off, Victarion will be fried.

[Werthead]

Only problem with that is that the horn's affects only lasts a few hours. Once it wears off, Victarion will be fried.

 

I don't recall it being said that the horn's affects are only temporary. Given that these horns are how the Valyrians originally tamed the dragons, the suggestion would appear to be to the contrary (the Valyrians hardly tamed and took control of dragons in just a few hours). Either that or they just have to blow the horn every few hours, which might be problematic given the horn's effects on those who blow it ;)

[Rolan]

Can't wait for ADWD, seems like we've been waiting forever.

 

Also, hello again dragonmount, it's been a while :)

[shinerfan]

Only problem with that is that the horn's affects only lasts a few hours. Once it wears off, Victarion will be fried.

 

 

I'm assuming that some people must be immune to the horn's destructive effects. The Valerian Dragonriders did after all tame the dragons; of course they could have gotten a slave to blow it, but wouldn't the dragons then have obeyed the slave?

[bronnt]

I just finished AFFC.  I read through all four books as I was waiting for TOM to come out.

 

I really did like it, but I still don't know if I see the allure that has created such a fanatic fanbase.  Maybe part of my issue is that I was warned in advanced that lots of nasty things happen to people, and that certain characters that seem bad aren't necessarily, so perhaps I wasn't as drawn in as I should have been while reading it.  Don't get me wrong, I barely set the books down once I got started, but I'm also not diving into the westeros forums and theory-searching like I do here.

 

SPOILERS

 

 

In fact, in some aspects, it's predictable.  It was a shock when Ned Stark died, sure, but not a big one.  I knew that Littlefinger was going to betray him very early when he basically told Ned not to trust him.  I had basically resigned myself to his dying when Renly had left, since the City Watch turning against him was very predictable.  I expected him to die in the throne room-I got a little bit of hope back when Varys visited him in the cells, but when Joffrey lopped his head off it just confirmed what I had already suspected would happen.

 

A lot of other things that were meant to be little hanging suspense points also failed to intrigue me.  It was very clear that the Greyjoys were going to attack Winterfell.  When Catelyn Stark came back at the end of ASoS, I was thinking "well, she was pretty much insane from grief when she died, so bringing her back can't have been good," and so far that seems accurate.  And it was very clear that Cersei's many, many mistakes were going to ruin her, though, like Littlefinger, it happened even faster than I imagined (though I did hope Margary would come out of it clean, which seems unlikely right now).  Of course, I realize there's much more there, since she's going to be strangled by a "brother," if that's accurate.

 

Cersei is just about the only character who isn't the slightest bit sympathetic, actually.  I'm curious if that's why GRRM decided to give her POVs in this last book.  It hasn't helped her like it helped Jaime improve.  In fact, it's made it worse-I can see how Joffrey got to be psychotic.  I even sympathized for Tywin, despite his involvement in a ton of horrible things.  He was at least capable, and he made sense-even had his own sort of honor.  Sandor Clegane, too, became sympathetic, which was really surprising.  Cersei remains the real monster of the series.

 

At this point, I'm convinced that Arya isn't even a character, just a tool Martin uses to write about his world from various different aspects.  It makes sense when explaining why she lacks any consistency.  She was high born, then a Kingsport orphans, a boy traveling with the NightWatch, a prisoner, a servant, a page, a refugee, a prisoner for ransom, a broken man (through the Hound by proxy), and now she's a foreigner in the guild of Faceless Men.

 

So, while it's well written, I'm having a tough time grasping the fanatical following that the series has.  I mean, without a character to latch onto, care about, and follow (though we still have Jon Snow, at least) I have a tougher time getting drawn in.  Martin does a great job with character development, Jaime Lannister being a prime example, but he goes about it very differently from RJ, who also does it very well.  In short, if I had to wait 5 years for another volume, I would probably forget about this series.  I'll definitely read ADWD if it comes out next year, though.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Cersei remains the real monster of the series.

 

Yeah, shes a b***h and all, but really, she has nothing on Gregor.

[Owayn The Traveller]

I have to say I was disappointed when the Houng kicked the bucket.

[Tsunami]

I just finished AFFC.  I read through all four books as I was waiting for TOM to come out.

 

I really did like it, but I still don't know if I see the allure that has created such a fanatic fanbase.  Maybe part of my issue is that I was warned in advanced that lots of nasty things happen to people, and that certain characters that seem bad aren't necessarily, so perhaps I wasn't as drawn in as I should have been while reading it.  Don't get me wrong, I barely set the books down once I got started, but I'm also not diving into the westeros forums and theory-searching like I do here.

 

 

It isn't perfect by any means, but it is a really good read.  I could do without the porn scenes and even some of the gore goes a little too far for my taste.

 

I recommended the series to several friends... two of who are fans of WoT.... neither of them have finished the books.

 

Different strokes.

[bronnt]

Cersei remains the real monster of the series.

 

Yeah, shes a b***h and all, but really, she has nothing on Gregor.

 

Not sure I agree.  Gregor isn't a lord and doesn't have lands or titles, so he's really just a pawn.  The people who utilize him and know what kind of monster he is, without putting him in check, those people are just as responsible as he is for every bad thing he's done.  Tywin really should have had him executed a long time ago, and Cersei had the same option during her time as Queen Regent, but they continued to give him license to rape and murder.  Since they were fully away of his crimes, and continued to employ him in their service, they are entirely complicit in each of heinous acts.

 

So basically, I can hang the entirety of Gregor's awfulness on Cersei, plus the other nasty plots she's been involved in.

[Tsunami]

Cersei remains the real monster of the series.

 

Yeah, shes a b***h and all, but really, she has nothing on Gregor.

 

Not sure I agree.  Gregor isn't a lord and doesn't have lands or titles, so he's really just a pawn.  The people who utilize him and know what kind of monster he is, without putting him in check, those people are just as responsible as he is for every bad thing he's done.  Tywin really should have had him executed a long time ago, and Cersei had the same option during her time as Queen Regent, but they continued to give him license to rape and murder.  Since they were fully away of his crimes, and continued to employ him in their service, they are entirely complicit in each of heinous acts.

 

So basically, I can hang the entirety of Gregor's awfulness on Cersei, plus the other nasty plots she's been involved in.

iirc, he is the head of House Clegane, as his father died under mysterious circumstances.

 

Lands and incomes were mentioned.  Not sure about Lordship.