The Black Ajah (spoilers for the entire book)

[Majsju]

Verin was never a Darkfriend, she did what she believed was necessary for the greater good (and to save her own life, at least in the beginning).

[adverge]

 

She made the oaths and she called the Dark One 'The Great Lord' and the Forsaken 'The Chosen'.  She also said that Tomas was a Darkfriend who wanted to redeem himself.

 

 

[AcuWill]

If I was Egwene, I would implement a law that all Sisters had to forswear all oaths and reswear the 3 Oaths every year and make the statements that they are not Darkfrinds.

 

That would be the end of the Black Ajah.

[nathanphilipbrown]

It's actually extraordinary that for 3000 years no-one thought to do that. It's fairly straightforward, and when the BA Hunters started doing I thought 'well this is pretty blunt but ok'. Or maybe the BA were so influential that the idea's been proposed in the past and it's been voted down?

 

Meanwhile, did anyone else think the "i-can-break-my-oaths-in-the-last-hour-of-my-life' rule was somewhat...clumsy? As a plot device I mean? And while I agree that giving the letter to Mat has to do with this rule as well, it actually doesn't make sense, because the time when Verin breaks her oath is when she puts pen to paper, not when Mat reads it [something which she actually has no control over].  

As an example of the clumsiness of this rule, does it only apply to darkfriend suicides or to all darkfriends? Cos surely most people don't know which is the last hour of their life? Remember how the oath rod seems to have physical effects on peopel?Would a Darkfriend who is going to die in the next hour feel the oaths being withdrawn, and realise they're going to die? That seems extraordinary!

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

I'm sure Verin could have Tomas write it, as he is a darkfriend but unbound by the oath rod. She could dictate to him in a hypothetical situation, and as he knows she is Black Ajah she would not be betraying Shai'tan.

[lillcheese]

The oath allows for a deathbed confession.  For the loophole to work, you have to know you're going to die.  Verin took a sip of poisoned tea immediately before revealing herself to satisfy this requirement. 

 

I wonder if knowing that revealing yourself would probably mean immediate execution would do it.

[nathanphilipbrown]

possible, but at the same time i'm thinking this is 16-17th century times, and all warders are good for is killing and protecting their women; why bother teaching them how to read and write? i actually don't think we've ever seen a literate warder...but yes, you could be right

[Bob T Dwarf]

possible, but at the same time i'm thinking this is 16-17th century times, and all warders are good for is killing and protecting their women; why bother teaching them how to read and write? i actually don't think we've ever seen a literate warder...but yes, you could be right

 

One of the things Jordan was very specific about is that literacy is universal.  The first technology to make a return after the Breaking was the printing press.

 

Warders know how to read, write and cipher.

[Astus]

I found the reveal of Verin as Black to be quite shocking. It makes sense but I think I was expecting something complicated and convoluted  :P

I just wonder if she had to do anything suss and evil-like to maintain her persona. To maintain her leaders' 'trust' in her.

 

Her life's work was awesome. The Manifest of all things Darkfriend! I was wondering about Egwene's execution in trying to round up the Black Ajah. Maybe it could have been done better? More subtly when the Tower had actually reunited? In any case, at least now they now who are distinctly Black and who are not. I guess you've got some female dreadlords there.

 

Finally, the list she came up with the possible candidates for Mesaana. Why would it not have appeared possible that she had escaped the tower? Why did Egwene discount those sisters so easily?

The belief that Mesaana would prefer to stay than flee when threatened?

I was waiting for Danelle's name to crop up somewhere, to absolve her, to assert that she was Black or just to show that she's still alive.

[coteaz]

It be funny if Mesaana was collared by the Seanchan.

[nathanphilipbrown]

we'll have to call that poetic license then on RJ's part, because the universality of printing presses does not inevitably lead to a universally literate population. most developing countries don't even have 90% literacy today.

you see universal literacy come about in the western world following the industrial revolution in England and the decision to create a public education system that makes kids go to school until, wait for it, 12!

We know that public education doesn't exist in Randland because Rand is really proud of OPENING UP public schools and leaving a legacy, which is actually becoming a crucial theme in the final books. Anyway, not the most important point...

[Ashamandragoran]

Verin's letter to Mat has to do with the Horn. Only her, Siuan, Moiraine know its location.

[lillcheese]

Verin's letter to Mat has to do with the Horn. Only her, Siuan, Moiraine know its location.

 

Alviarin (sp?) knew where it was.  I think she might have moved it and Verin's note tells Mat its new location.

[coteaz]

how did alviarin know where it was?

[Mr. Micawber]

Read Chapter 19 of FOH.

 

She happens upon Fain with the dagger and the Horn.

[coteaz]

I dont remember a mention of the horn, just that she saw him with the dagger.

[theblacksmith]

It's actually extraordinary that for 3000 years no-one thought to do that. It's fairly straightforward, and when the BA Hunters started doing I thought 'well this is pretty blunt but ok'. Or maybe the BA were so influential that the idea's been proposed in the past and it's been voted down?

 

Meanwhile, did anyone else think the "i-can-break-my-oaths-in-the-last-hour-of-my-life' rule was somewhat...clumsy? As a plot device I mean? And while I agree that giving the letter to Mat has to do with this rule as well, it actually doesn't make sense, because the time when Verin breaks her oath is when she puts pen to paper, not when Mat reads it [something which she actually has no control over].  

As an example of the clumsiness of this rule, does it only apply to darkfriend suicides or to all darkfriends? Cos surely most people don't know which is the last hour of their life? Remember how the oath rod seems to have physical effects on peopel?Would a Darkfriend who is going to die in the next hour feel the oaths being withdrawn, and realise they're going to die? That seems extraordinary!

 

I seriously doubt if Verin deemed it necessary to reveal to Mat that she was BA, as that would 1. Increase his distrust of AS and 2. Would make him disregard anything in the letter. I suspect that knowledge of the BA and DF network would however come in handy if their potential targets were made aware of direct threats towards them. Perhaps (Verin, if anyone) may have vital info for Mat on how to defeat that Gholam. Perrin would certainly be a better person if he learned the secret to accepting his "Wolf Nature" and stopped being as he is. I believe Verin has accumulated enough information for the side of Light to stand a chance if they heed her writings.And I accept the theory that knowledge of where the horn is located may very well be a vital message she left for Mat

[Bobbun]

The question as to how Verin can write the letter and hand it to Mat more than an hour before her death if it contains a betrayal of the Black Ajah may have a simple answer.  If she can know that before she hands him the letter she will have warded it so that it can't be read until the appointed time, then she should be able to write the letter using the same leeway in her oaths that allowed her to keep her journal. 

 

To me the bigger puzzle is how she wrote anything at all.  Surely writing anything down, even in code, with the eventual intent of passing it on via an act of betrayal is itself a betrayal?  The notes she handed to Egwene should have been impossible by my thinking.

 

[Thorn]

To me the bigger puzzle is how she wrote anything at all.  Surely writing anything down, even in code, with the eventual intent of passing it on via an act of betrayal is itself a betrayal?  The notes she handed to Egwene should have been impossible by my thinking.

 

I thought the same thing at first, but if there's one thing that's been established, it's an Aes Sedai's ability to think her way past inconvenient wording. She could justify the record-keeping as inter-darkfriend scheming, and the Oath was clearly intended to mean "you will keep my secrets to the grave," but with an (unintentional? inscrutable?) loophole.

 

The real question is, what acts did Verin have to commit to stay alive as Black Ajah, up till now? Was she at the Darkfriend Social in book 2, and was she given secret instructions?

[JenniferL]

You assume she wrote anything that betrays the Black Ajah. Its far more likely that she simply said "I can't tell you why, but I need you to..." and she gives directions.

[lsm]

The Black Ajah purge wasn't as powerful as I'd hope it to be. The Verin chapter was really good, no doubt about it, and the handful of paragraphs where sheriam is exposed was good too, but the way the purge was executed was just a bit too much rushed I think.

 

The rebel AS, well Egwene, knew that there would of been a full attack, and knew that very likely it was going to be a victory. What was it, only a meere few thousand on a bridge vs the full Bryne army, it was called to be a rout? I don't see why the revelation of the BA to the hall wasn't put on the backburner until the tower was united again. It wouldn't of been united by force anyway, since during the rebel purge, the white tower was deciding to put Egwene as the leader.

 

It would of been a lot more BA dead if it was waited a bit longer. In the tower they could of cramed a lot more BAs into a room, or whatever it was they did. Really, no execution scenes at all? Ah well...

 

I suppose though, that a good fair amount of dreadlords (dreadlords is what BA members are right?) are going to be needed in the last battle so we'll get to see all those evil AS die eventually

 

[Pandemonium]

I wanted to add a couple points to this thread.  Verin's plotline was, perhaps, my favorite in the book.  I am eagerly awaiting to see the impact of all the letters that she wrote. 

 

1.  As a couple people noted, what dark acts did Verin have to commit in order to remain a Black Ajah member in good standing?  Is Verin somewhat like Ingtar, someone that committed a lot of heinous crimes but had one glorious moment of redemption at the end?

 

2.  Does anyone else feel like the whole black ajah purge for the last 3 or 4 books was kind of unnecessary?  Egwene had almost no need of the black ajah hunters other than to learn that little tidbit about using the oath rod.  Verin gave Egwene everything she needed.

 

3.  Wasn't Verin taking an awfully big risk by giving all these secrets to an Amyrlin that was a prisoner in the White Tower?  How could Verin have known that Egwene would return to a position of power so quickly?

 

4.  How did Verin get in the Black Ajah in the first place?  Was it because of her own curiousity, her warder, or a situation that forced her into it?

 

5.  I would LOVE to see an a short story about how Verin got into the BA and the beginnings of her 70-year plan.  Verin said she hasn't made a mistake in 70-years--- what was that mistake?  I always visualize Angela Lansbury from 'Murder she Wrote' everytime I think of Verin-- great character.

[Natural Born Killer]

Just got a little something to say about one of your points.

 

2.  Does anyone else feel like the whole black ajah purge for the last 3 or 4 books was kind of unnecessary?  Egwene had almost no need of the black ajah hunters other than to learn that little tidbit about using the oath rod.  Verin gave Egwene everything she needed.

On the contrary. The BA hunters chapters are very foreshadowing and story building parts that prepare for the whole purge. Sure, the BA hunters didn’t get to play a major acting role in the end play. But consider if they wouldn’t have had a story – then the whole purge and BA hunt would come right out of the blue and be considered by fans a completely unprepared and some form of  "jumped the shark".

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

What?  Semirhage showing up in KoD and saying, " Oh, by-the-way, I just offed the whole Seanchan Imperial family." isn't jumping the shark?

 

No preparation at all.  Totally out of left field.  All Jordan.

[Natural Born Killer]

What?  Semirhage showing up in KoD and saying, " Oh, by-the-way, I just offed the whole Seanchan Imperial family." isn't jumping the shark?

 

No preparation at all.  Totally out of left field.  All Jordan.

Well... Touché on that one I guess.

 

I'm just saying, as much as Jordan does "BAM!"-sort of events that you didn't expect. He more often uses the build-up-for-4-books and drop-hits-from-book-one-that-noone-gets-untill-the-thing-happen approaches. And this time I think it was a good build up, even though the climax was different than expected.