Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[Aleron688]

If the Dragon has in fact fought for the Shadow in the past (as Ishamael has stated), would the Dark One not have already destroyed the Wheel and remade the world in his image?

 

Is it possible the Dragon isn't as important as everyone thinks in the end result?  Or perhaps Ishamael is simply lying?

 

he could be lying.  Rand has said himself that he was sure that he never served him (speaking to Ba'alzamon at the time, who was ishy but who he thought was the DO)

 

Impossible to tell... but I'm pretty sure he is relatively important this time around :P

 

edit: what he said above me.

[ShenAnCalhar]

Ishamael is lying. The Dragon has never fought for the Shadow. When Rand relived all his past lives he never once turned to the Shadow. Many times (most) he was defeated and killed, but he never once was turned.

 

This certainly makes the most sense - he did try to psyche Rand out a lot earlier in the series.

 

But then again, if the Dragon was defeated and killed multiple times, would the end result not be the same (Dark One pwning the world)?  "Defeated" indicates that he failed to achieve his purpose.  I know you're paraphrasing, but I seem to recall reading something similar.

[smileyman]

Ishamael is lying. The Dragon has never fought for the Shadow. When Rand relived all his past lives he never once turned to the Shadow. Many times (most) he was defeated and killed, but he never once was turned.

 

This certainly makes the most sense - he did try to psyche Rand out a lot earlier in the series.

 

But then again, if the Dragon was defeated and killed multiple times, would the end result not be the same (Dark One pwning the world)?  "Defeated" indicates that he failed to achieve his purpose.  I know you're paraphrasing, but I seem to recall reading something similar.

 

The battle that the DO has isn't with the Dragon, but with the Creator. You can defeat the minion without defeating the one who sent that minion. The Dragon being defeated results in a tie. The Dragon being turned results in victory for the DO. The Dragon winning also means a tie (at least if we assume that the Wheel is indeed cyclical and that we're not being led on by unreliable narrators). I think one of Rand's goals this time around is to do it right, i.e. actually destroy the DO forever.

[Aleron688]

I think one of Rand's goals this time around is to do it right, i.e. actually destroy the DO forever.

 

he will try. but he will fail. you can't kill a god, even a bad one

[smileyman]

I think one of Rand's goals this time around is to do it right, i.e. actually destroy the DO forever.

 

he will try. but he will fail. you can't kill a god, even a bad one

 

Is the DO a god? The DO is extremely powerful, but I don't know about it being a god. If the DO is a god I think it's in the sense of the Norse deities, who can be killed and destroyed.

[Aleron688]

Is the DO a god? The DO is extremely powerful, but I don't know about it being a god. If the DO is a god I think it's in the sense of the Norse deities, who can be killed and destroyed.

 

he is a god as much as the creator is.  he has been around since the beginning and was sealed away at the moment of creation.  He is omnipresent.  He is as much a god as the creator is.

 

however, this doesn't necessarily mean he can't be destroyed... because it seems as though Rand is determined to do that... and LTT telling him he can't just makes it seem as though we will see the impossible happen.  I have mixed feelings about this

[smileyman]

Is the DO a god? The DO is extremely powerful, but I don't know about it being a god. If the DO is a god I think it's in the sense of the Norse deities, who can be killed and destroyed.

 

he is a god as much as the creator is.  he has been around since the beginning and was sealed away at the moment of creation.  He is omnipresent.  He is as much a god as the creator is.

 

however, this doesn't necessarily mean he can't be destroyed... because it seems as though Rand is determined to do that... and LTT telling him he can't just makes it seem as though we will see the impossible happen.  I have mixed feelings about this

 

Seems like a funny kind of god to me. Definitely not omniscient, nor is he omnipotent. I'm reminded of Guy Gavriel Kay's Fionavar series. In that series the ultimate evil is Rakoth Maugrim, the Unraveller. He was also bound outside of time, and his goal is also to destroy everything (thus the moniker). He was killed by a magical dagger that removed his soul from existence. BTW, the last book in the Fionavar Tapestry was published in 1986, well before tEotW was written.

[randfandom]

however, this doesn't necessarily mean he can't be destroyed... because it seems as though Rand is determined to do that... and LTT telling him he can't just makes it seem as though we will see the impossible happen.  I have mixed feelings about this

 

More probable, Rand will discover that for balance the DO's existence (in a sealed bore) is necessary. Sealing him back rather than destroying him altogether is really the only realistic solution in a cyclical world. If the DO always existed, then he must exist in any turning of the Wheel. If he is destroyed, wouldn't the Wheel of Time unravel because the ages can no longer be repeated without such a major component? I think this was what Moridin meant when he told Rand he can't comprehend the stupidity of that idea. In that, Moridin was correct.

[maradon]

The wheel of time is powered by the true source, through Saidar and Saidin working in harmony. The DO's true power is not needed, hence the DO can die without the wheel stopping. i.e. he is not required for life to continue.

[smileyman]

however, this doesn't necessarily mean he can't be destroyed... because it seems as though Rand is determined to do that... and LTT telling him he can't just makes it seem as though we will see the impossible happen.  I have mixed feelings about this

 

More probable, Rand will discover that for balance the DO's existence (in a sealed bore) is necessary. Sealing him back rather than destroying him altogether is really the only realistic solution in a cyclical world. If the DO always existed, then he must exist in any turning of the Wheel. If he is destroyed, wouldn't the Wheel of Time unravel because the ages can no longer be repeated without such a major component? I think this was what Moridin meant when he told Rand he can't comprehend the stupidity of that idea. In that, Moridin was correct.

 

Does the Creator still exist? We haven't seen any influence in the series that says so. There's the Pattern which strives for balance. If the Creator doesn't exist anymore, does that leave open the way for the DO to be permanently destroyed leaving the world with just the natural instincts of man?

[stormcrow]

The battle that the DO has isn't with the Dragon, but with the Creator. You can defeat the minion without defeating the one who sent that minion. The Dragon being defeated results in a tie. The Dragon being turned results in victory for the DO. The Dragon winning also means a tie (at least if we assume that the Wheel is indeed cyclical and that we're not being led on by unreliable narrators). I think one of Rand's goals this time around is to do it right, i.e. actually destroy the DO forever.

The DO said his enemy is the Dragon. I don't think we can be sure that defeating the champion of the Light would result in a tie, it doesn't make intuitive sense because in that reasoning the DO can never win even after defeating the Dragon (thus making the conflict meaningless).

[maradon]

The Creator talks to Rand at Tarwins Gap in tEotW. So he's still there.

[smileyman]

The battle that the DO has isn't with the Dragon, but with the Creator. You can defeat the minion without defeating the one who sent that minion. The Dragon being defeated results in a tie. The Dragon being turned results in victory for the DO. The Dragon winning also means a tie (at least if we assume that the Wheel is indeed cyclical and that we're not being led on by unreliable narrators). I think one of Rand's goals this time around is to do it right, i.e. actually destroy the DO forever.

The DO said his enemy is the Dragon. I don't think we can be sure that defeating the champion of the Light would result in a tie, it doesn't make intuitive sense because in that reasoning the DO can never win even after defeating the Dragon (thus making the conflict meaningless).

 

The Dragon has been defeated many times. Rand's trip through his past lives showed that, but the DO didn't win, because he was still sealed up in this current cycle. This indicates to me that a defeat of the Dragon simply means detente for the DO (which is far better than defeat but not nearly as good as a win).

 

If the DO can turn Rand (thus his orders to leave him alive), he can actually use him to destroy the Pattern and finally win. That's why the land is so sick, because of Rand's continued journey to the Dark Side. That's been the focus for the DO.

[smileyman]

The Creator talks to Rand at Tarwins Gap in tEotW. So he's still there.

 

I knew this would come up. I have serious issues with that whole section, because the Creator doesn't speak again for the rest of the series, nor does he intervene in any other way, which makes me think that either RJ was still fleshing out the idea of deity in the Wheel, or it wasn't the Creator.

[Ashaman DeRouge]

Could it be LTT? I havn't read the passge in ages, just a passing thought.

 

I'm not sold on the idea of Rand killing the dark one, but I do think it is possible. I don't think the DO is equal to the Creator or not, look:

 

"Sealed away at the moment of Creation"

 

So, the creator CREATES everything, and then, presumably using HIS power, Seals away the Dark One. To me, that reads that the DO is inferior to the Creator.

 

As to the Creators lack of presence..? Who knows.

[smileyman]

Could it be LTT? I havn't read the passge in ages, just a passing thought.

 

I've always thought so, since the idea of the Creator intervening so directly here and then not a peep at any other time is odd to the say the least.

 

I'm not sold on the idea of Rand killing the dark one, but I do think it is possible. I don't think the DO is equal to the Creator or not, look:

 

"Sealed away at the moment of Creation"

 

So, the creator CREATES everything, and then, presumably using HIS power, Seals away the Dark One. To me, that reads that the DO is inferior to the Creator.

 

As to the Creators lack of presence..? Who knows.

 

I don't think the DO is the equal of the Creator either. It's obvious that he has severe limitations for a god (if he is a god).

[Second Chance]

however, this doesn't necessarily mean he can't be destroyed... because it seems as though Rand is determined to do that... and LTT telling him he can't just makes it seem as though we will see the impossible happen.  I have mixed feelings about this

 

More probable, Rand will discover that for balance the DO's existence (in a sealed bore) is necessary. Sealing him back rather than destroying him altogether is really the only realistic solution in a cyclical world. If the DO always existed, then he must exist in any turning of the Wheel. If he is destroyed, wouldn't the Wheel of Time unravel because the ages can no longer be repeated without such a major component? I think this was what Moridin meant when he told Rand he can't comprehend the stupidity of that idea. In that, Moridin was correct.

I have always wondered about the cyclical nature of time in the novels. In the WoT world ages and circumstances (ie. selaed Dark One) repeat over and over, so the same basic stories happen again and again in WoT history, though they are forgotten or whatever so nobody says 'Wait this happened before!'

 

Having created that world, was RJ's purpose in writing the books to tell the tale of the time when the cycle was broken? Otherwise the ultimate conclusion is somewhat irrelevant. See you in a few thousand years and we'll do it all again. I think some significant cycle-breaking event must be what RJ had planned, for the victory of good (most likely, I mean, come on...) or evil.

 

Of course, I thought Taim was Demandred and that Rand would cleanse the source by breaking the seals so this wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.

 

 

 

SPOILER ALERT FOR 7 YEAR OLD MOVIE

 

 

 

You never know...

 

 

 

However, some of the posts in this thread got me thinking about the end of the Matrix trilogy (I know, right) and the way Neo lets Smith take over his body so that he can be deleted by the big machine supercomputer. My extremely fledgling theory involves this sort of a process, where Rand draws epic amounts of the True Power, then Alivia 'helps him die' and the Dark One is seriously messed up. Clearly I have thoroughly researched this idea and have pages of quotes to support it, I just haven't posted any here.

 

The reality of course is that I think Fain will play a massive role in any process like this, and he isn't involved in that plan at all.

[TheBeggar]

Is the DO a god? The DO is extremely powerful, but I don't know about it being a god. If the DO is a god I think it's in the sense of the Norse deities, who can be killed and destroyed.

 

he is a god as much as the creator is.  he has been around since the beginning and was sealed away at the moment of creation.  He is omnipresent.  He is as much a god as the creator is.

 

however, this doesn't necessarily mean he can't be destroyed... because it seems as though Rand is determined to do that... and LTT telling him he can't just makes it seem as though we will see the impossible happen.  I have mixed feelings about this

 

I believe you misspoke about the DO. He is in no way omnipresent. If he was omnipresent he would not be sealed away, he would not need crows, and he would not need to travel the world through SH vicariously. He might have been around since the beginning of the world, but this does not give him equal status with the Creator. Also, if the Creator created him, then the DO can not be stronger or equal to. Most of that was opinion, but by definition the DO is definitely not omnipresent.

[MatrixM]

Omnipresent, he is considering that his prison is everywhere. Omniscient, no. I think that's what you meant.

 

I'm not sold on the idea of Rand killing the dark one, but I do think it is possible. I don't think the DO is equal to the Creator or not, look:

 

"Sealed away at the moment of Creation"

 

So, the creator CREATES everything, and then, presumably using HIS power, Seals away the Dark One. To me, that reads that the DO is inferior to the Creator.

 

As to the Creators lack of presence..? Who knows.

 

I don't think the DO is the equal of the Creator either. It's obvious that he has severe limitations for a god (if he is a god).

Remember, the litany about the Dark One was created after the Breaking. I'm not sure how to word this. It's very most likely wrong. During the Age of Legends they didn't even know about the Dark One. After the Breaking, the simple masses created a myth that the Dark One and his Forsaken have always been tucked away into their prison at the moment of creation. Which is, of course, preposterous. So the litany isn't much to go on.

[smileyman]

Omnipresent, he is considering that his prison is everywhere. Omniscient, no. I think that's what you meant.

 

I'm not sold on the idea of Rand killing the dark one, but I do think it is possible. I don't think the DO is equal to the Creator or not, look:

 

"Sealed away at the moment of Creation"

 

So, the creator CREATES everything, and then, presumably using HIS power, Seals away the Dark One. To me, that reads that the DO is inferior to the Creator.

 

As to the Creators lack of presence..? Who knows.

 

I don't think the DO is the equal of the Creator either. It's obvious that he has severe limitations for a god (if he is a god).

Remember, the litany about the Dark One was created after the Breaking. I'm not sure how to word this. It's very most likely wrong. During the Age of Legends they didn't even know about the Dark One. After the Breaking, the simple masses created a myth that the Dark One and his Forsaken have always been tucked away into their prison at the moment of creation. Which is, of course, preposterous. So the litany isn't much to go on.

 

I'm going to reply to this in the Metaphysics thread.

[randfandom]

 

I have always wondered about the cyclical nature of time in the novels. In the WoT world ages and circumstances (ie. selaed Dark One) repeat over and over, so the same basic stories happen again and again in WoT history, though they are forgotten or whatever so nobody says 'Wait this happened before!'

 

Having created that world, was RJ's purpose in writing the books to tell the tale of the time when the cycle was broken? Otherwise the ultimate conclusion is somewhat irrelevant. See you in a few thousand years and we'll do it all again. I think some significant cycle-breaking event must be what RJ had planned, for the victory of good (most likely, I mean, come on...) or evil.

 

I think RJ's answer is detailed in the the "Veins of Gold" chapter - this is precisely what Rand is asking:

 

"We live the same lives!" He yelled at them. "Over and over and over. We make the same mistakes. Kingdoms do the same stupid things. Rulers fail their people time and time again. Men continue to hurt and hate and die and kill!"

...

"What good is it if everything we know will fade? Great deeds or great tragedies, neither means anything! They will become legends, then those legends will be forgotten, then it will start all over again!"

 

His answer is that it's worth it for the chance to live and love again. This is especially touching to think that RJ was contemplating this when on his death bed.

 

Quite frankly, in 100 years not many people will remember anything about any of us. We will be buried and forgotten forever. I think living in a circular world where our souls get reborn is actually quite cool - we get a second chance - it's the next best thing to immortality.

[MatrixM]

Only, those of us who are aware of the mistakes we made are doomed to die from the knowledge...

[lordofsoup]

"NONE OF THIS MATTERS!" ch. veins of gold

 

i posted something about this earlier in a thread suggestion thread.  its in the same chapter as Rand is about to destroy the world. 

 

@could the creator have sacrificed all his power to trap the DO?

[Duneflayer]

"NONE OF THIS MATTERS!" ch. veins of gold

 

i posted something about this earlier in a thread suggestion thread.  its in the same chapter as Rand is about to destroy the world. 

 

@could the creator have sacrificed all his power to trap the DO?

 

i find that extremely unlikly

[Duneflayer]

i would say more but i have 2 go! :'(