Prologue, Chap. 1-50, Epilogue

[Vanin]

People are giving entirely too much credit to Graenal and not enough to Rand. That was his only option there and it was such a good plan none of us saw it coming. How would she have?

 

She's smarter than us.  We didn't see it coming, but the Light help everyone, she is smart enough to have anticipated this.  And like someone quoted already, if al'Thor ever knew where she was, she would simply up and leave.  More, she likely had intel from Moridin regarding Semirhage's failure.

 

She is dead. I'm already sick of this , don't think I can take another year of it.

[algspkr]

 

Verin has never used compulsion, and there is no evidence one was or another as to weather tying it off or not has an impact on its long term effects other than when it is tied off it will continue to compel its victim. 

 

Uh, Verin stuck Compulsion in Elza's head. Semirhage was told to remove it. Read your books.

 

She never says that it was Verin who compelled her.

 

Verin used a weave similar to compulsion on her, but it was no where near as powerful or versatile as compulsion.  Verin's weave required that the target trust her, and come up with their own reasons for obeying.

 

That weave may have been what Semirhage was instructed to remove, or compulsion may have been thrown on as well; if that was the case then there is a chance that Verin did it after having been taught compulsion by someone else but it is far more likely that it was put on by someone else.

[Lownin]

I have a request for the forum mods.  Now that the book is out, can we lift the no new threads restriction?  I know what you were trying to do, but it has just become 50 pages of people asking the same random spoiler questions, and everyone else just going off on random topics left and right. 

[p1jones]

dont think a missed something but when rand thought of mat and perrin he saw them in the future or at least it had not happen in TGS and tam going on to rand about morgase and perrin being with galad i read the book straight threw almost but dont think i missed any chapters.  kinda weird to me i guess but the bookes was very cool all the same

[DemandredFO]

As far as Gawyn goes he still has to save when is about to die.  I don't think what he did in tGS was perilous enough to fulfill that dream or whatever.  I can never like Gawyn, I will never forgive him for Hamar and Coulin.  He was supposedly worthy of becoming first Prince, yet he doesn't act very much like it from tSR to the Present.

[richnewton82]

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[richnewton82]

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[SinisterDeath]

Finished the book not more than 2 hours past.

Loved it.

 

I found the chapters with Rand to be nigh unbearable.

I LOVED the Egweneand Mat Chapters.

Perrin Deserved more Air Time, but it seems obvious to me why he hasn't had any.

Loil.. We needed more of.

 

I'm not suprised at what Tuon did, They have there OWN set of prophecies, some false, probably most true, just warped a bit. But her comment about him not 'being blind yet' in hindsight is rather funny, considering that we were all expecting that to be 'literal'. RJ, He played us right into the hands of a red herring, and we thought we were walking on the trail that was free of land mines!

 

Could rand have already fullfilled Min's prophecy of him as a 'begger with a staff, blind' ?

I think so.

Question is. If this is as 'dark as rand goes', How can we possibly expect 2 more books to happen? I think we haven't seen SHIT yet! ;)

 

I find it rather remarkable how the timelines have all seemed to 'synch up' Rand and Mat, are escentaily at the same time frame, as well as Perrin. The next book will probably have a few chapters to 'update us' on points A to B, but really for mat, thats a few weeks in Caemlyn probably patting Elaynes stomach acting like a jack daw fool. And Them probably showing how Perrin and Galad ended up meeting near that statue.

 

Has dragonmount always had that hole in the side? Its obvious about the light now but I was half expectin rand to balefire dragonmount!

 

I think Min & Cadusaune are trapped in a loop about the 3 become 1. For all we know, that could refer to Mat, Perrin, and Rand?

Or possibly.. white tower (aes sedia) black tower (rand/male), Seanchan. Interestingly enough if you consider what they all represent, it IS 3 powers of the world that are if anything, the only real 'powers' left in the world... Egwene had her clensing. Its about time Rand did to.

 

Theres also a hint to seal the dark ones prison.

Lewis Therin (if we can even assume he IS real anymore.) said that the 'females' wanted to use brute force (choden kal) to stop the dark one. The males wanted to not use force, but flexibility. I'm reminded on that one lady who was incredibly weak in the power who was able to shield Nyneave...

Things that are hard, are always brittle. It maybe able to hold off something, but if you put all that force into one point and push... ITs liable to shatter.

But if that something is say... Very, Very Flexible, That 'thing' can push all it wants, but it won't do a bit of difference.

And there is only one thing in the wot Universe that is that flexible. And that is the Pattern.

Rand can't use the TP to stop the DO, The only possibility near that would be channeling 'shadar logoth' against the DO, but thats like throwing a Lake into an Ocean. Its not going to change the 'salt' content of the ocean very much.

 

Rand has to figure out a way, to bend the pattern its self, around the bore, to fix it, heal it.

Rand is the most powerful ta'vern in the world. He BENDS the pattern by his mere prescense. It already stresses chance to the point of impossibility, We are already seeing that balance 'fade'. Perhaps with the '3 becoming one', rand, Mat, and perrins prescense, alone will stave off the dark ones power, and rands blood itsself, dripping into the bore will cause the pattern to recover from the inside out?

 

Maybe to die, and live again, isn't litterally, but metaphorically?

[bushleague]

NEW direction:

 

Hoping this hasn't been discussed already, but if it does, oh well.

 

What's going on at the BT?  Both groups of Aes Sedai have said they have had no communication with the 50 sisters they each sent to the BT.  I'm thinking Taim has kidnapped/killed/still fighting them.  It could also be that they are fighting each other not realizing the tower is whole again.  However because both sides said that they have heard nothing makes me think that something has gone wrong and Taim is to blame.

 

Theory time:  wouldn't it be cool if Taim was using 13 Fades and 13 of his darkfriend asha'man to one by one convert Aes Sedai to the shadow?  The good guys think they have the advantage with Verin's notebook but really the BT has turned 100 Aes Sedai to the shadow?

 

Not saying its likely, but if RJ/BS could find a way to do it, it would be awesome.  Except Pevara... she's one of the few reds i like.

[Mr. Micawber]

Dragonmount's always smoked, with the implication now confirmed that it is an volcano, though apparently inactive.

 

I'm sure a reasonably sized eruption would obliterate Tar Valon, considering that it seems to be at least the size of a Vesuvius, perhaps even a Krakatoa. Would be interesting to know if the Dark One's touch can provoke that.

[Durinax]

I thoguht the females thought it couldnt be done with brute force.

 

great book, a few points i found intreging

rands dark aura

reading the title Tuons Death really made me guess that she literally died, and mat would take the throne thus binding the 9 moons to rand

 

but at least one prediction correctly:

that Egwene would take control of the tower becasue teh seanchan attack

 

probly forgot a few but will have to reread to remember :D

[Mr. Micawber]

NEW direction:

 

Hoping this hasn't been discussed already, but if it does, oh well.

 

What's going on at the BT?  Both groups of Aes Sedai have said they have had no communication with the 50 sisters they each sent to the BT.  I'm thinking Taim has kidnapped/killed/still fighting them.  It could also be that they are fighting each other not realizing the tower is whole again.  However because both sides said that they have heard nothing makes me think that something has gone wrong and Taim is to blame.

 

Theory time:  wouldn't it be cool if Taim was using 13 Fades and 13 of his darkfriend asha'man to one by one convert Aes Sedai to the shadow?  The good guys think they have the advantage with Verin's notebook but really the BT has turned 100 Aes Sedai to the shadow?

 

Not saying its likely, but if RJ/BS could find a way to do it, it would be awesome.  Except Pevara... she's one of the few reds i like.

 

I believe this is exactly what Taim is doing.

 

Moreover, I suspect strongly that the Black Ajah has fled, probably on the orders of Mesaana, to the Black Tower to put themselves under Taim's command (or possibly Demandred's or Mesaana's or Elan Morin's, but I think Taim is now a neoChosen).

 

Duhara is still in Caemlyn trying to convince Elayne to receive her. As I think I might have said earlier, I think that Taim will be exposed by Duhara, since Egwene will certainly let Elayne know that she's reunited the Tower, Duhara will come up in conversation as having been sent by Elaida, and Elayne will find out she's got an extra Black in her Palace.

 

Then Duhara will get the hell out of Dodge to the Black Tower, which is in Andor close to Caemlyn. That will reveal Taim as a super evil dude, and I think that Egwene will be mad pissed at Rand, probably telling him that if he doesn't handle it, she will. This will lead to the fulfillment of the Black Tower rent in fire and blood, and the Dragon Reborn faces the Amyrlin and knows her anger; Egwene's going to furious about what happens to her people at the hands of Taim and the Black Ajah.

 

Of course, if the Black Ajah did not flee to Andor, they probably fled to some kind of secret training center (where Taim probably learned) possibly in the Black Hills or some place similarly remote, or else they've gone to Elan Morin's Black Rock Spire Luxury Resort and Health Spa.

[Beren]

I have a request for the forum mods.  Now that the book is out, can we lift the no new threads restriction?  I know what you were trying to do, but it has just become 50 pages of people asking the same random spoiler questions, and everyone else just going off on random topics left and right.  

 

Just so you don't have to look for it. There will be more new threads for various discussions coming shortly. Kathana mentioned it somewhere in this thread or the favorite scenes thread. Have patience. The mods have lives to. (I think)

 

 

 

 

Verin has never used compulsion, and there is no evidence one was or another as to weather tying it off or not has an impact on its long term effects other than when it is tied off it will continue to compel its victim. 

 

Uh, Verin stuck Compulsion in Elza's head. Semirhage was told to remove it. Read your books.

 

She never says that it was Verin who compelled her.

 

Verin used a weave similar to compulsion on her, but it was no where near as powerful or versatile as compulsion.  Verin's weave required that the target trust her, and come up with their own reasons for obeying.

 

That weave may have been what Semirhage was instructed to remove, or compulsion may have been thrown on as well; if that was the case then there is a chance that Verin did it after having been taught compulsion by someone else but it is far more likely that it was put on by someone else.

 

 

Ok, sorry, it was not Elza, it was Beldeine. However, I think we can make a reasonable assumption that Verin did this to more than just Beldeine. We know Elza was there being held as one of those who kidnapped Rand. It is only reasonable to assume that Verin saw her at some point. Since we see Verin putting some sort of Compulsion (not the ancient kind) on Belideine, we know that she could have done the same to Elza. The only other one possible would be Cadsuane and I don't think it was her.

[bushleague]

People are giving entirely too much credit to Graenal and not enough to Rand. That was his only option there and it was such a good plan none of us saw it coming. How would she have?

 

She's smarter than us.  We didn't see it coming, but the Light help everyone, she is smart enough to have anticipated this.  And like someone quoted already, if al'Thor ever knew where she was, she would simply up and leave.  More, she likely had intel from Moridin regarding Semirhage's failure.

She is dead. I'm already sick of this , don't think I can take another year of it.

 

You're wrong about Graendal, but right about this being a long year.  We need to have a vote on it and write everyone's names down.  That way when the book comes out, half of us get I told you so's.  Or we could just kidnap and torture the info out of Sanderson.  It definatly wouldn't take a year :). (joking... he could hold out that long.)

 

But seriously, theres no definate answer... its a complete 50/50 chance and with none of us having seen RJ's notes we're not going to no until someone confirms it or October 2010 rolls around

 

[algspkr]

We've seen other books where things occur out of sinc before.. when Rand cleanses the Taint, the entire next book occurs WHILE that had happened and concluded in the previous book. We see all these different perspectives of people thinking "wtf is going on?" but in the previous book Rand cleansed it and it was done. So it is more than likely that we will see Perrin and Matt's POVs in the next book and rand and egwene will take a slight back burner for the majority of it. We'll probably see Graendals POV of getting balefired too (possibly).

Personally I would not be surprised if we get no confirmation in ToM.

[Beren]

People are giving entirely too much credit to Graenal and not enough to Rand. That was his only option there and it was such a good plan none of us saw it coming. How would she have?

 

She's smarter than us.  We didn't see it coming, but the Light help everyone, she is smart enough to have anticipated this.  And like someone quoted already, if al'Thor ever knew where she was, she would simply up and leave.  More, she likely had intel from Moridin regarding Semirhage's failure.

She is dead. I'm already sick of this , don't think I can take another year of it.

 

You're wrong about Graendal, but right about this being a long year.  We need to have a vote on it and write everyone's names down.  That way when the book comes out, half of us get I told you so's.  Or we could just kidnap and torture the info out of Sanderson.  It definatly wouldn't take a year :). (joking... he could hold out that long.)

 

But seriously, theres no definate answer... its a complete 50/50 chance and with none of us having seen RJ's notes we're not going to no until someone confirms it or October 2010 rolls around

 

 

I am already making my list of predictions.  :)

 

In fact, I have already riled up some of the big posters with them. *looks at Micawber and Luckers*

[GlowingThread]

As far as Gawyn goes he still has to save when is about to die.  I don't think what he did in tGS was perilous enough to fulfill that dream or whatever.  I can never like Gawyn, I will never forgive him for Hamar and Coulin.  He was supposedly worthy of becoming first Prince, yet he doesn't act very much like it from tSR to the Present.

 

That's sort of the point tho. Every character has a flaw and yet they overcome those flaws and grow.. I never really appreciated that in the beginning and characters like Perrin, Faile, Morgase, Elayne, Egwene, and Gawyne annoyed me. But every single character overcomes an issue in the series and becomes better as a result. I don't really feel like listing them and you're probably smart enough to find them. I think that is the real point of the story.

 

Yay! someone does share my view. EoW showed Gawyn to be affable and standing in the long shadow of his "too perfect" brother. He becomes more of a likeable character through his chats with the girls and Mat in Tar Valon before the split. I think RJ decided that Gawyn had to be led down the Darkside for him to become more real.

He stars comming off to look like a misguided teenager at the point of the split and gets worse. Yes, after that he makes himself look like a tool, correction a power tool. Yes he killed two excellent warders, but to be fair if he didn't he would have had a rather short storyline, and prophesies and story objectives would be hard to achieve. I think that BS understands this and has spent this book focusing on reverting Gawyn back to a character that everyone could at least empathise with (in the next book) being able to do what he is suited to (i.e protecting people, not trying anything smart and generally being good warder material). I'm glad that finally Gawyn is beginning to show that he is warder material rather than a general. He is unparralled as a swordsman and loyal and can keep an oath, but finds leadership too burdensome and lets face it is not the best at making exec decisions. Here's to Gawyn becomming a more Lan like character, hopefully with that sense of affability he had in the first book.

[algspkr]

NEW direction:

 

Hoping this hasn't been discussed already, but if it does, oh well.

 

What's going on at the BT?  Both groups of Aes Sedai have said they have had no communication with the 50 sisters they each sent to the BT.  I'm thinking Taim has kidnapped/killed/still fighting them.  It could also be that they are fighting each other not realizing the tower is whole again.  However because both sides said that they have heard nothing makes me think that something has gone wrong and Taim is to blame.

 

Theory time:  wouldn't it be cool if Taim was using 13 Fades and 13 of his darkfriend asha'man to one by one convert Aes Sedai to the shadow?  The good guys think they have the advantage with Verin's notebook but really the BT has turned 100 Aes Sedai to the shadow?

 

Not saying its likely, but if RJ/BS could find a way to do it, it would be awesome.  Except Pevara... she's one of the few reds i like.

 

The only group of fifty Aes Sedai sent to the Black Tower were the ones sent by Elida and bonded by Logain and his friends.

 

Currently both the loyalist and rebels have a contingent of about four women there who have failed to check in.  Your theory seems plausible for those women, but it is eight, not a hundred.

 

I think we got about two months out of Egwene so this is unlikely, but it is possible that those women are merely trying to select warders.

[Mr. Micawber]

Err, no.

 

The Rebels sent one Sitter per Ajah as their embassy, ie. six, along with women who wanted to bond Asha'man.

 

Between Tarna, Pevara, and the other Reds ( :'( I really don't want anything bad to happen to those two; especially Pevara, since she already lost her entire family to the Shadow) and the ones from the SAS, there could be up to fifty. There's almost certainly around twenty.

 

Moreover, all of the bonded AS are out of the Black Tower, and they were all bonded to Rand Loyalists, ie. followers of Logain.

 

This leaves up to about 50 sisters in serious fecal matter. But probably closer to about 20.

[SinisterDeath]

People are giving entirely too much credit to Graenal and not enough to Rand. That was his only option there and it was such a good plan none of us saw it coming. How would she have?

 

She's smarter than us.  We didn't see it coming, but the Light help everyone, she is smart enough to have anticipated this.  And like someone quoted already, if al'Thor ever knew where she was, she would simply up and leave.  More, she likely had intel from Moridin regarding Semirhage's failure.

She is dead. I'm already sick of this , don't think I can take another year of it.

You're wrong about Graendal, but right about this being a long year.  We need to have a vote on it and write everyone's names down.  That way when the book comes out, half of us get I told you so's.  Or we could just kidnap and torture the info out of Sanderson.  It definatly wouldn't take a year :). (joking... he could hold out that long.)

 

But seriously, theres no definate answer... its a complete 50/50 chance and with none of us having seen RJ's notes we're not going to no until someone confirms it or October 2010 rolls around

 

Until BS, or someone in the next book states she is dead, we can only assume she is 'possibly dead'.

What rand did was ingenius.. Yes. But not fool proof. (I knew I forgot something in my previous post)

 

I believe Grendel would have had advanced notice if someone 'new' was coming anywhere near her. She should have suspected that Rand sent this man in to a lions den. If she heard about the one he killed (unlikely given what they were ordered to not do) She should know to get out of dodge, and let rand THINK he killed her.

Hell for all we know the way balefire works, by balefireing the palace, The guy could have never 'entered' the place, thus she could never have used compulsion on him...

 

For all we know, she could have 'tied' the weaves to something to the palace, so when Rand Destroyed it, the 'weaves' disapeared. Either are likely, just as likely as Her Being dead. BUt like in every movie/book/videogame/play, until you see the corpse, or are told explicity so by someone who 'would' know if someone is dead or not, They aren't dead. Simply on the sidelines hiding, waiting for a moment to pop out and say BOO.

[Mr. Micawber]

M. Mort Sinistre, that's why I'd say she's got a 1 in 2 chance (at least) of being alive until we hear from BS or Team Jordan otherwise.

[algspkr]

Err, no.

 

The Rebels sent one Sitter per Ajah as their embassy, ie. six, along with women who wanted to bond Asha'man.

 

Between Tarna, Pevara, and the other Reds ( :'( I really don't want anything bad to happen to those two; especially Pevara, since she already lost her entire family to the Shadow) and the ones from the SAS, there could be up to fifty. There's almost certainly around twenty.

 

Moreover, all of the bonded AS are out of the Black Tower, and they were all bonded to Rand Loyalists, ie. followers of Logain.

 

This leaves up to about 50 sisters in serious fecal matter. But probably closer to about 20.

 

It took me forever to find it, but I stand corrected.  I still believe that it is under twenty women though.

[richnewton82]

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[Beren]

Sorry but balefiring objects doesn't burn them back in time. You also cannot tie a compulsion to an object so that it fades. Not to mention the fact that heavy compulsion - and this was heavier than that which left the cook braindead - cannot be undone by any means and have the person return to normal. The compulsion vanished and he returned to normal, therefor, balefire is the only option. This compulsion was heavier than on the cook and that was already incredibly strong compulsion. This was also "more subtle." There is exactly 1 person who is responsible for said heavy subtle compulsion and there is only 1 way to remove compulsion.

 

She's dead. Seriously. NOTHING said has been a valid point. Not a single argument. BS must be appalled at this discussion. It was written plain as day. Rand nuked her. That was the only way she would ever die. She's gone.

 

Then Graendal didn't kill Asmo.

[richnewton82]

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