Prologue, Chap. 1-50, Epilogue

[Terez]

 

Or because we felt that two souls explained or said clearly that the voice of LTT was real. That was the point of it.

Since Frenzy, the champion of the one soul faction, believes that Lews Therin is 'real', and most of the members of that faction also believed that Lews Therin is 'real', and the faction itself doesn't say anything about Lews Therin not being 'real', it's hard to understand why you would support a faction that says something obviously false for the reasons you say.  Your arguments about it just make it clear that you are not very smart.

 

As for the rest, I'll show you when I post my thread.  ;)

[Isabel]

That I think differently than you, that I have a different Point of View from you and I discuss things in a different way than you, that my english isn't a sophisticated as yours, doesn't say anything about my inteligence.

 

The two souls theory was one of the theories from a certain time. Everyone would have their own reason to support a theory and feel why that theory suits people better. At that time, I felt that theory explained it more clearly.

 

I think below Jordan quote proofs that the voice was real:

 

"Q: The question is, with Rand and LTT, do they have 1 soul or 2 souls in the body?

 

A: They have 1 soul with 2 personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I cobbled together."

 

If the voice is not a personality,than what is? And how could a fake personality integrate with all the memories of the lives he had lived?? I don't see that.

 

 

[fikkie77]

For me proof of the 1 soul, 2 personalities was when LTT seized saidin and made weaves (like the deathgates) that Rand didn't know. That proved for me that LTT is real.

[JamesEdJones]

For me proof of the 1 soul, 2 personalities was when LTT seized saidin and made weaves (like the deathgates) that Rand didn't know. That proved for me that LTT is real.

 

Absolutely. LTT is definitely real. Terez is just overthinking this. Terez, try not to be as smart as possible (however smart that might be), and just use occam's razor. It works so much better to clean your mental stubble.  :D

[Terez]

That I think differently than you, that I have a different Point of View from you and I discuss things in a different way than you, that my english isn't a sophisticated as yours, doesn't say anything about my inteligence.

I didn't mention any of those things.  But as far as your English goes, don't you think you could have at least figured out what a soul was before you decided to join that faction and support it so passionately?  It's quite clear in the books that souls are reborn.  I know what Frenzy believes, for instance, and she never argued that Lews Therin was not 'real' - just that he was Lews Therin reborn.  The same soul.  It's the same thing with the real vs construct debate - I have been trying to tell you for years that the only real disagreement we have is that you think Lews Therin and Rand are different people, and I do not.  You think that Lews Therin had a mind of his own, and we did not.

 

If the voice is not a personality' date='than what is?[/quote']

Lews Therin's personality was a part of Rand, as soon as Rand began receiving the memories.  The 'voice' that talked to him in his head was an illusion, based on Rand's false assumption that he and Lews Therin were two different people (which he has now realized was wrong).  When RJ said 'two personalities', he might have been referring to Rand's personality and the constructed personality.  He might have been referring to the fact that Rand has memories from both lives, and therefore two personalities.  But RJ was obviously not implying in that quote that Lews Therin had a separate awareness from Rand.  

 

And how could a fake personality integrate with all the memories of the lives he had lived?? I don't see that.

Lews Therin's personality, as it was represented in the memories, was never fake, and we have never said it was.  The 'voice' was was the fake part - that, and the misconception that Rand had that Lews Therin was trying to 'take over', such as in the incident while fighting Rahvin in Tel'aran'rhiod (clearly a misinterpretation on Rand's part), or the incident at Algarin's.  Lews Therin never had a mind of his own - that was just Rand's way of explaining the memories, and Rand's way of disassociating himself from those memories.  This is how Rand came by the constructed personality - this is a psychological term, relating Rand's misconception of Lews Therin to MPD and schizophrenia and PTSD, etc.  Rand constructed the illusion that there was someone talking to him in his head.

 

@fikkie - Rand says that he was wrong about Lews Therin being a different person.  This means that it was actually Rand that was channeling in that scene, because they are not two different people, and never have been.  It makes sense, if you think about it - Rand was remembering how to do weaves that he didn't know at least as early as The Shadow Rising chapter 10, based on Lews Therin's memories.  There is no struggle when it happens.  It is only over time that he has constructed such a convincing persona that he believes Lews Therin can take control of the Power.  Also, Rand knew the names of the weaves as they were being woven, without Lews Therin saying anything, so obviously Rand did know those weaves.  

 

@James - I'm not overthinking it, I promise.  ;) 

[Nightstrike]

Your arguments about it just make it clear that you are not very smart.

Are the mods taking a holiday?

 

I think below Jordan quote proofs that the voice was real:

 

"Q: The question is, with Rand and LTT, do they have 1 soul or 2 souls in the body?

 

A: They have 1 soul with 2 personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I cobbled together."

 

If the voice is not a personality,than what is? And how could a fake personality integrate with all the memories of the lives he had lived?? I don't see that.

What is "real"? LTT and Rand have 2 real personalities. They also have 1 real soul. I'm with Isabel on this. LTT is what makes him LTT. He contributes with his voice and with his memories. For better or for worse. I say this even though I've not read TGS yet. I don't think I will have to change my mind afterwords, but lets see about that.  :D

 

 

[Terez]

TGS says that they are not two men, and never have been.  That means that Rand has been talking to himself this whole time, just like a crazy person, except that he had real memories and a different face/name to attach to his constructed personality.  The 'personality' was never a separate awareness.  That was just an illusion.  :)

[Isabel]

Your arguments about it just make it clear that you are not very smart.

Are the mods taking a holiday?

 

That is what Terez is always saying.....

[Terez]

Because it is so painfully obviously true.  :(

[Nightstrike]

That means that Rand has been talking to himself this whole time, just like a crazy person, except that he had real memories and a different face/name to attach to his constructed personality.

He was probably "crazy", according to some definition. The LTT personality was not a "constructed" personality.

 

The 'personality' was never a separate awareness.  That was just an illusion.  :)

Maybe not a "separate awareness"... It could still be a "real awareness". As I said, I've not read TGS. But I trust RJ's word over that of any character in the series. Because he made his characters with inherent ignorance of how everything worked and was connected. Just as how it's expected to be in the real world. Lets see if I change my mind after having read TGS.

 

 

[Terez]

He was probably "crazy"' date=' according to some definition. The LTT personality was not a "constructed" personality.[/quote']

The voice was definitely constructed, because that gives the illusion that Lews Therin had a mind of his own, when he obviously did not.  For instance, when Lews Therin raves about killing Taim, what is actually happening is that Rand wants to kill Taim, but that desire is inconvenient, so he expresses it through Lews Therin.  Same with the attempted suicide in Knife of Dreams - Rand wanted to kill himself, but he expressed that desire through the 'madman' in his head.

 

I'm not sure why you say that you trust RJ's word over anyone else's - so do I, when it comes to WoT.  What did RJ say that makes you think I am wrong?  If it's the 'two personalities' bit, then you have to keep in mind that RJ never said that both of these personalities were 'aware', nor did he say that both of them were 'real'.  We all know that Rand has Lews Therin's real memories - no one has ever denied that.  Well, some people have, but they were wrong, and not involved in this debate anyway.  We all know that Lews Therin's personality was a part of those memories.  However, it is obvious, now more than ever, that the 'voice' was an illusion.

[Isabel]

I didn't mention any of those things.  But as far as your English goes, don't you think you could have at least figured out what a soul was before you decided to join that faction and support it so passionately?  It's quite clear in the books that souls are reborn.  I know what Frenzy believes, for instance, and she never argued that Lews Therin was not 'real' - just that he was Lews Therin reborn.  The same soul.  It's the same thing with the real vs construct debate - I have been trying to tell you for years that the only real disagreement we have is that you think Lews Therin and Rand are different people, and I do not.  You think that Lews Therin had a mind of his own, and we did not.

 

Excuse me: I have said that the main factor in joining the two souls faction was the fact that LTT was real. A lot of people supported the faction at that time. Everyone has been wrong before, you including. At that time I believed that was the best explanation.

 

And again you are interpretating what i think. The only real disagreement we have is that you think the voice is a construct and i think it's the real personality of LTT. And no I did believe that LTT shared a brain with Rand ;)

I believed they were influencing each other and slowly integrating.

 

 

 

If the voice is not a personality' date='than what is?[/quote']

Lews Therin's personality was a part of Rand, as soon as Rand began receiving the memories.  The 'voice' that talked to him in his head was an illusion, based on Rand's false assumption that he and Lews Therin were two different people (which he has now realized was wrong).  When RJ said 'two personalities', he might have been referring to Rand's personality and the constructed personality.  He might have been referring to the fact that Rand has memories from both lives, and therefore two personalities.  But RJ was obviously not implying in that quote that Lews Therin had a separate awareness from Rand.  

 

In my pov memories don't constitute personality. The voice is the personality. So from my pov it is obviously what RJ meant by two personalities. However, RJ is gone and we cannot ask him anymore what he thinks about that.

 

And again you are talking about a separate awareness. I don't give a $#@%%@%@%@ about consciousness or how the mechanism works. I interpreted this issue as how I see it. I see the voice as being the real personality of LTT.

We haven't gotten any quote that it isn't the real personality yet. We only  had quotes that they weren't two people.

 

 

And how could a fake personality integrate with all the memories of the lives he had lived?? I don't see that.

Lews Therin's personality, as it was represented in the memories, was never fake, and we have never said it was.  The 'voice' was was the fake part - that, and the misconception that Rand had that Lews Therin was trying to 'take over', such as in the incident while fighting Rahvin in Tel'aran'rhiod (clearly a misinterpretation on Rand's part), or the incident at Algarin's.  Lews Therin never had a mind of his own - that was just Rand's way of explaining the memories, and Rand's way of disassociating himself from those memories.  This is how Rand came by the constructed personality - this is a psychological term, relating Rand's misconception of Lews Therin to MPD and schizophrenia and PTSD, etc.  Rand constructed the illusion that there was someone talking to him in his head.

 

And again: we see the difference between you and me. You say: memories = the same as personality. While for me the voice (remnant of LTT) constitutes a personality.

 

 

@fikkie - Rand says that he was wrong about Lews Therin being a different person.  This means that it was actually Rand that was channeling in that scene, because they are not two different people, and never have been.  It makes sense, if you think about it - Rand was remembering how to do weaves that he didn't know at least as early as The Shadow Rising chapter 10, based on Lews Therin's memories.  There is no struggle when it happens.  It is only over time that he has constructed such a convincing persona that he believes Lews Therin can take control of the Power.  Also, Rand knew the names of the weaves as they were being woven, without Lews Therin saying anything, so obviously Rand did know those weaves.  

 

And again: how do you explain the fact that Rand would become LTT, if he would have gone with Lanfear. He would have become LTT not a fake LTT. That can't be, if it is a fake personality.

 

[Isabel]

Because it is so painfully obviously true.  :(

 

If people don't agree with you, they must be stupid...... right.....

[Terez]

Excuse me: I have said that the main factor in joining the two souls faction was the fact that LTT was real.

Yes, I know this.  And that is the problem - you should have joined that faction because you believed that Rand had two souls, not because you believed that he was real, because that's not what the faction said, and the one-soulers never denied that Lews Therin was 'real'.

 

A lot of people supported the faction at that time. Everyone has been wrong before' date=' you including.[/quote']

Some of us can actually admit when we are wrong.  You, on the other hand, try to twist it when you are wrong and pretend that something that disproves your theory actually validates it.  You are doing the same thing now.

 

Anyway, I'm done arguing with you about this until I post my thread.  ;)

[Terez]

Because it is so painfully obviously true.  :(

 

If people don't agree with you, they must be stupid...... right.....

Has nothing to do with you disagreeing with me.  I disagree with all sorts of people, and I don't say that they are not smart.  I listed the reasons why I said that above.  Your logic in that situation was appallingly bad.

[Isabel]

Yes, I know this.  And that is the problem - you should have joined that faction because you believed that Rand had two souls, not because you believed that he was real, because that's not what the faction said, and the one-soulers never denied that Lews Therin was 'real

 

Were you there at theoryland at that time? No, you weren't. You could have read it back, but that is not the same.

There were one soulers who denied that Lews Therin was real. So at that time that theory fit me the most. Two souls weren't that ridiculous at the time.

It was a fun discussion at times :)Now it is not anymore and hasn't been for years.

 

I disagree with all sorts of people, and I don't say that they are not smart.

 

Wrong.. You say it to a lot of people. People I know who are smart.

[Isabel]

BTW: Jason and Kathana, I apologize for derailing this thread ;) This issue just gets on my nerves.

[Terez]

Yes, I know this.  And that is the problem - you should have joined that faction because you believed that Rand had two souls, not because you believed that he was real, because that's not what the faction said, and the one-soulers never denied that Lews Therin was 'real

 

Were you there at theoryland at that time? No, you weren't. You could have read it back, but that is not the same.

There were one soulers who denied that Lews Therin was real. So at that time that theory fit me the most. Two souls weren't that ridiculous at the time.

It was always ridiculous, because there was never any good reason to believe that there were two souls.  We have known from book 1 that Rand was the Dragon Reborn, Lews Therin reborn.

 

I'm sure it was a fun discussion at times, but you did not join the faction for satirical reasons - you said why you joined it above, and it had nothing to do with humor.  Just horribly bad logic.

 

Wrong.. You say it to a lot of people. People I know who are smart.

No, not wrong.  I do say it to a few people - you, and Sodas particularly - but not to most people, even though we disagree often.  And why would I trust you to say who is smart and who is not?  LOL!

 

Also, to the mods - don't worry, I will be abandoning this thread tomorrow as soon as things come to life at Theoryland.  ;D

[Isabel]

It was always ridiculous, because there was never any good reason to believe that there were two souls.  We have known from book 1 that Rand was the Dragon Reborn, Lews Therin reborn.

 

Always easy to say afterwards that there wasn't any good reason. Well for me there were reasons enough.

I just said that the two souls - one souls discussion was fun. That the discussion now, isn't any fun.

[Terez]

I have had a lot of fun with this discussion.  Admittedly, less when you are involved.  ;D

 

Also, retrospect has nothing to do with the two souls theory.  It was obvious long before the RJ quote.

[Mr.Big]

Wow,you two really hate eachother.

[Terez]

haha, I don't hate anybody. I have tried to call truce a couple of times with Isa, but she's too stubborn for a truce.  ;)

[Mr.Big]

Here are some spoilers that I heard about:

1.Faile yells at Perrin a lot.

2.Rand gets a dragon tattoo on his bicep to replace the one that was on his hand.

3.Mat gets a new hat.

more to come...

[SteelBlaidd]

You know, from the outside this 'real' vs. 'construct' debate looks like two people arguing about whether a car is red or a Toyota.

[Mr.Big]

I think you broke the record for longest Dragonmount fight.