The DO will be the underdog in Tarmon Gai'don?

[BrainFireBob]

1) The Dark Lord is sure powerful, but we don't really know anything about him so let's mostly factor him out

 

This is the problem.

 

The characters generally do this. So a number of readers do this- they focus on physical warfare, conquest, stomping the oppositiob.

 

It's a emtaphysical battle against a god, the rest is irrelevent.  We know how powerful he ism and it's not like he has a body for Rand to fight,or that there can be a channelling contest- in fact, even the Nae'blis isn't the equal of the Dragon, he's there to give the dragon something he thinks of as an opponent, when it's the DO he's fighting!

[Mr Ares]

But i have shown repeatedly fron my posts that the dark one's prison can be broken without the need for rand's conversion.

You have shown no such thing.

 

1) The Dark Lord is sure powerful, but we don't really know anything about him so let's mostly factor him out

That's a pretty big thing to factor out.

2) the Light has the vast majority of the world's channelers - there are very few Darkfriends amongst sul'dam, Aiel, or Sea Folk, and even amongst Aes Sedai it's about 50 / 700 and even the majority of Asha'man are Lightfriends

Numbers aren't everything. The Light is infiltrated. In a battle, the guy next to you might be evil. That means you can't trust the guy next to you. And a surprise attack could do a lot of damage to the Light.

3) Sure there are many Trollocs and they're pretty scary, but note that even a small group of channelers can utterly defeat armies of them

Provided the Tollocs are without channeler support.

[Seven of Nine]

the Light has the vast majority of the world's channelers

That is a huge assumption and one I don't know that the Light can rely on. The DO one is nothing if not devious. I think it would be incredibly naive for those fighting for the Light to assume they know where/who all the DFs are. Just as Ingtar was a surprise, there could (and likely are) many, many DFs in very high places who have been instructed not to move--yet. And when they do move, it would be devastating. Better to prepare for the worst but hope for the best.

 

Good Heavens! Just as another fictional character once said--the world is not made up of good people and death eaters. There are plenty of people who are not DFs and aren't working for the dark side (and would be appalled at the suggestion they are helping the DO), yet their very actions make them major tools for the DO (i.e. Elaida, power tripping lords who don't seem to get it that TG is coming and soon, etc.). Some kind of "friends" we all can do without.

[Nightstrike]

I agree with Seven of Nine. There are a lot of people on the Light's side that are making things really difficult for Rand and the rest.

 

During the War of the Shadow, roughly 50 percent of all channelers were on the DO's side. For many different reasons. We know that several of the Forsaken switched sides because they felt that they were on the losing side. I think that could happen again.

[Majsju]

3) Sure there are many Trollocs and they're pretty scary, but note that even a small group of channelers can utterly defeat armies of them,

 

KOD. Rand, Cadsuane, Logain, Nynaeve, Alivia and a whole bunch of other channelers are facing 100000 trollocs who attacks without support from dreadlords, and without any kind of intelligent tactic. Quite an impressive gathering of channelers, and yet it was a close call. Now, imagine that battle, but with dreadlords running interference, the trollocs spreading out to attack the mansion from all sides, which would force the defenders to spread themselves thin, and all of a sudden it gets a bit more complicated. And that would be just by adding a few dreadlords and a competent leader.

[Shaidar]

@Braus,

 

Except when most of the points arent logical at all and hardly valid.

 

Argument from truthiness = fallacy.

 

@Mr. Ares,

 

That's a pretty big thing to factor out.

 

I agree. One of the big differences between the Light-optimists and the Dark-optimists is the weight they decide to attach to this factor.

 

Numbers aren't everything. The Light is infiltrated. In a battle, the guy next to you might be evil. That means you can't trust the guy next to you. And a surprise attack could do a lot of damage to the Light.

 

Already covered under the arguments of the Light-optimists.

 

@Seven of Nine,

 

That is a huge assumption and one I don't know that the Light can rely on. The DO one is nothing if not devious. I think it would be incredibly naive for those fighting for the Light to assume they know where/who all the DFs are. Just as Ingtar was a surprise, there could (and likely are) many, many DFs in very high places who have been instructed not to move--yet. And when they do move, it would be devastating. Better to prepare for the worst but hope for the best.

 

The only way for the channeling disbalance to be removed is we find that Demandred has been marshaling the channelers in Sharia (not Islamic law, that place east of the Aiel Waste whose exact name I can't recall atm), or something similar. This would be a rather unsatisfying deus ex machina, however.

 

Instead, I think a much more "realistic" way to even things out would be for the growing influence of the DO to just completely snuff out the One Power. In that case, without channelers, the military balance swings decisively to the Shadow. I can see that happening.

 

Good Heavens! Just as another fictional character once said--the world is not made up of good people and death eaters. There are plenty of people who are not DFs and aren't working for the dark side (and would be appalled at the suggestion they are helping the DO), yet their very actions make them major tools for the DO (i.e. Elaida, power tripping lords who don't seem to get it that TG is coming and soon, etc.). Some kind of "friends" we all can do without.

 

There are some very incompetent / of questionable loyalty DF's too. For instance, look at the White Tower BA hunters. Once they manage to capture and turn back Black sisters, they can force them to start undermining the rest of the Black Ajah. So this really works both ways, the only reason the Shadow relies on it to a greater extent is that it has to because it is weaker.

 

@Majsju,

 

KOD. Rand, Cadsuane, Logain, Nynaeve, Alivia and a whole bunch of other channelers are facing 100000 trollocs who attacks without support from dreadlords, and without any kind of intelligent tactic. Quite an impressive gathering of channelers, and yet it was a close call. Now, imagine that battle, but with dreadlords running interference, the trollocs spreading out to attack the mansion from all sides, which would force the defenders to spread themselves thin, and all of a sudden it gets a bit more complicated. And that would be just by adding a few dreadlords and a competent leader.

 

1. But they were also taken by surprise. Ultimately, if things looked really bad for them, they could have waygated themselves out.

 

2. That manor house had no fortifications. The Light's major cities have walls and chokepoints.

 

3. The Light can also improve its tactics. The potential of fusing channelers with Seanchean flying creatures and Way Gates in fighting the Shadow have not been exploited to anywhere near their potential.

[Mr Ares]

Numbers aren't everything. The Light is infiltrated. In a battle, the guy next to you might be evil. That means you can't trust the guy next to you. And a surprise attack could do a lot of damage to the Light.

Already covered under the arguments of the Light-optimists.

No, it hasn't been. There has been no adequate counter put forward to the Light being infiltrated by the Light. Simply saying the Light has more is not enough.

 

The only way for the channeling disbalance to be removed is we find that Demandred has been marshaling the channelers in Shara

Or making use of the Land of Madmen, or the Blight. Or Ishamael has been gathering male channelers since his return. Like he did in the Trolloc Wars.

[Seven of Nine]

@Seven of Nine,

That is a huge assumption and one I don't know that the Light can rely on. The DO one is nothing if not devious. I think it would be incredibly naive for those fighting for the Light to assume they know where/who all the DFs are. Just as Ingtar was a surprise, there could (and likely are) many, many DFs in very high places who have been instructed not to move--yet. And when they do move, it would be devastating. Better to prepare for the worst but hope for the best.

The only way for the channeling disbalance to be removed is we find that Demandred has been marshaling the channelers in Sharia (not Islamic law, that place east of the Aiel Waste whose exact name I can't recall atm), or something similar. This would be a rather unsatisfying deus ex machina, however.

 

Instead, I think a much more "realistic" way to even things out would be for the growing influence of the DO to just completely snuff out the One Power. In that case, without channelers, the military balance swings decisively to the Shadow. I can see that happening.

I actually thought the idea of those Aiel men being taken in was rather an intriguing one the first time I heard. I wouldn't be disappointed at all. RJ has told us in that interview with the fight analogy that the DO has stuff we haven't even seen yet.

 

The DO snuffing out the One Power (do we know if he can do that?) would be a real "wow" moment if it were to happen.

 

Good Heavens! Just as another fictional character once said--the world is not made up of good people and death eaters. There are plenty of people who are not DFs and aren't working for the dark side (and would be appalled at the suggestion they are helping the DO), yet their very actions make them major tools for the DO (i.e. Elaida, power tripping lords who don't seem to get it that TG is coming and soon, etc.). Some kind of "friends" we all can do without.

There are some very incompetent / of questionable loyalty DF's too. For instance, look at the White Tower BA hunters. Once they manage to capture and turn back Black sisters, they can force them to start undermining the rest of the Black Ajah. So this really works both ways, the only reason the Shadow relies on it to a greater extent is that it has to because it is weaker.

There certainly are plenty of incompetent DFs, but we also don't know who they all are yet. He could have saved the best for last to lull the Light.

[Muad Cheade]

And keep in mind that very few Darkfriends have been exposed by the Light. Anyone who has not had a POV (and even some of them) could be Darkfriends.

[Majsju]

 

 

1. But they were also taken by surprise. Ultimately, if things looked really bad for them, they could have waygated themselves out.

 

2. That manor house had no fortifications. The Light's major cities have walls and chokepoints.

 

3. The Light can also improve its tactics. The potential of fusing channelers with Seanchean flying creatures and Way Gates in fighting the Shadow have not been exploited to anywhere near their potential.

 

1. Surprise is a natural part of war. If Team Light can only offer proper resistance when they get warned about attacks early enough to get their defences up and running, they are royally screwed. And waygates might work for running away if you have a small group, trying to send an army of thousands through one in under 10 minutes is quite a different story.

 

2. Unfortunatly, I can not see Tam Light divide its forces between the major cities, and just sit there hoping to ride out the storm. And even if they did, wonder how long it would take for a couple of forsaken or dreadlords to blow a citywall apart.

 

3. As the Light improves its tactics, so will the Shadow. And unlike the Light, the Shadow has miltary leaders with a lot of experience fighting military campaigns using the OP.

[sheikh chilli]

 

But i have shown repeatedly fron my posts that the dark one's prison can be broken without the need for rand's conversion.

You have shown no such thing.

One of the plans for ending the war quickly, proposed by Lews Therin, centered around a direct attack on the Bore itself. Seven "focus points" (there seems no better translation from the old tongue, although they are obviously the Seals of Legend) were constructed of cuendillar. A raiding force -- so they called it, though even in the light of recent past events it must still seem a large army to most people of this day -- a raiding force consisting of some twenty thousand soldiers to provide security and a circle of seven female Aes Sedai and six male (the minimum number believed necessary, and all the strongest who could be found) would Travel to Shayol Ghul , the one place on earth where what has been called "a thinness in the Pattern" makes the Bore detectable, and there to implant seals held by the focus points which would close up the Bore and shut the Dark One from the world once more.

 

This plan was considered risky for a number of reasons. Even today it is known that the Dark One has a certain degree of effect on the world close around Shayol Ghul, and it was probable that any attempt to channel there would be instantly detected and the raiding party destroyed. Lews Therin himself, who intended to personally lead this huge raid, admitted that even with sucess, he expected few of the attackers to survive, perhaps none. Worse, several experts claimed that if the seals were not placed with exact precision, the resulting strain would, instead of sealing up the Bore, rip it open, freeing the Dark One completely.Lews Therin argued again for his plan, acknowledging the risks but saying that was now the only chance

[sheikh chilli]

 

During the war of power there was no attempt made to convert lews therin by the dark one..

 

 

This is completely and utterly wrong. LTT survived to fight the fair as long as he did because there were numerous and multiple attempts to turn him- many spearheaded by Lanfear at Ishy's instigation. This is from glossaries and the BWB. It does, however, explain why you are having such issues.

 

 

the attempts to make ltt join th shadows cause was done after the sealing has been done by ishy. no talks of conversion was attempted during the 10 ferocious years of the war of power

[sheikh chilli]

the light forces have alot of angreal and other power laden stuff amongst them. especially in the white power.  and thats not counting the choedan kal, callandor and ofcourse the horn.

 

 

thats not to say the shadow does not have a few tricks up its sleeve but as it stands in head to head battle the forces of light will slaughter the shadow troops

[Mr. Micawber]

 

1) The Dark Lord is sure powerful, but we don't really know anything about him so let's mostly factor him out

That's a pretty big thing to factor out.

 

What's hilarious about this is that even the Chosen themselves - with a significant exception - mostly factor him out. And that's a pretty major thing to do. I think at least part of their attitude comes from the fact that in the AoL there was nothing like SuperFade, and that his existence demonstrates that the Big Guy has finally had it with the incompetence and bickering of his followers.

 

The interesting thing is that the only fellow who *doesn't* factor out the Big Guy - and who pretty much tells everybody what Ares says, that it's a pretty damn big thing to factor out - is Elan Morin.

 

But then, look at how the other Chosen react to him: they routinely describe him as insane. Most amusingly, however, Elan Morin is probably the only person living - I think that Herid Fel might have gotten this too - who understands the fundamental problem with the Dark Side winning.

 

Specifically, that the Big Guy's plans do not necessarily involve the continued existence of homo sapiens - or anything else for that matter. What's more is that the Big Guy may have the ability to do so, if his ability to change seasons and break down matter, at least in the sense of spoilage, is any indication.

 

 

 

That being said, I can sympathize with those who think that RJ has not done the best job demonstrating the predicament of Our Guys. I think that this, in part, due to RJ's complete unwillingness to permanently kill off anyone of importance, at least among the Lightforces. Intellectually I know how crapsack Randland is right now; we've got an entire nation going Jim Jones in Guyana; we've got the destruction of the food supply even for the Big Guy's followers, and the possible failing of the Power itself; we're aware of how riddled Our Guys are by the Shadow; and we know painfully well how absolutely boneheaded the heroes are, especially with respect to internal communication, since there's essentially zero trust or empathy among the Lightforces.

 

But we know that RJ is either unwilling or unable to kill off any of the people with whom we've spent all these years, and in my particular case, with whom I literally grew up. We care, deeply in a lot of cases, for these people; our sadness two years ago came both because we lost this amazing storyteller and human being and because we lost our window into their lives. As good as I hope BS will be, we're no longer going to see them through the eyes of the man who had them every day for the last thirty five years living in his head. At best, we will be seeing them at least partly through the eyes of the woman (since Harriet is still involved) who played a major role in their creation - but that is just not the same thing.

 

Losing even one of those central characters - even if it was someone largely disliked in the fan community, like Faile or Elayne - would matter more to us, would demonstrate more powerfully than anything else the danger in which Our Guys really are.

 

Thus, I know that the Big Guy is, as we speak, destroying existence; but I also know that Rand and Mat and Perrin and the Supergirls and Lan and Thom and Min and Avi and Rhuarc and Faile and Siuan and Birgitte and even more recently Sorilea and Cads and Setalle Anan and Noal and Olver and Tuon, are all still alive. Perhaps not happy or healthy, but alive. And that matters a hell of a lot more to me than anything else in the series, as awful in the abstract at this may sound, including things like the mass suicide of CoT/KoD.

 

I was affected more by the deaths of Ingtar and Moiraine than nearly anything else in the WoT I can think of. Only things like the Golden Crane in KoD come close. Now, Ingtar's scene was amazingly written, although he wasn't even a central character.

 

But I can remember being sad beyond belief and getting dusty in my eyes and nearly throwing that brick of a book against the wall when I read the dock scene; I'd say that by the end of Moiraine's letter, I was probably crying like Rand. And then there was Lan's little speech:

 

“The Wheel weaves.” Lan went to Mandarb, busied himself checking the black stallion’s saddlegirth. “She was a soldier, a warrior in her way as much as I. This could have happened two hundred times these past twenty years. She knew it, and so did I. It was a good day to die.” His voice was as hard as it had ever been, but those cold blue eyes were red-rimmed.

 

At that point, I felt more despair for Our Guys than any other point in the entire series. For the first time, we saw that there would be casualties, that our half-taught teenage heroes would not always triumph over the knowledge and power of the Age of Legends without sacrificing anything. I realized that they all *were* soldiers, and that having magic or Power or whatever didn't always matter, and that sometimes you really do have to die to win.

 

To find out that Moiraine wasn't truly dead, as awesome as the rescue from Finnland will be, and as awesome as it will be to see her again, left me somewhat bitter, because I no longer feel the loss the way I did.

 

As long as all my friends - and I do think of them that way, sometimes - are all still around, I can ignore the impending disaster. If I feel real fear again - and Min's visions have done a lot to ruin this as well - then the rest of the story, what I do know about but do not necessarily acknowledge inside, will truly be as bleak as RJ claims.

 

GRRM, despite his reputation, hasn't actually killed significantly more characters than RJ, but what he *has* done is to make us fear for Our Guys.

 

Here's to hoping that RJ and BS can do so again in Gathering Storm, like when we lost Moiraine through the stone doorway.

[sheikh chilli]

^ top post. the inability of the bad guys to take out some of the good guys seriously takes out some of the 'struggle' theme that robert jordan is looking for.

 

we had so many popular bad guys taken out, some actually balefired and yet not one major light character has seen the end. You only have to look at moiraine as the micawber suggested. It actually makes the dark forces seem ineffectual, disorganised, useless, and clearly a side with no strategy what so ever.

 

 

The closest we have come to dark side pawnage was when Rahvin blasted mat and aviendha outta this world. And that ofcourse was negated in the end by balefire. Even when the bad guys are reincarnated they are still taken out without causing too much of a fuss.

 

 

and i think tha's the crux of the issue. It's been 11 books and so far what we haven't in my opinion seen any sort of epicness struggle, desperation, lossess, sense of hopelessness from the forces of light. I don't know it we are going to have a tarmon gaidon that spans 10 years like the war of power but i hope we really get that in the coming books

[Owners.Inc]

^ top post. the inability of the bad guys to take out some of the good guys seriously takes out some of the 'struggle' theme that robert jordan is looking for.

 

we had so many popular bad guys taken out, some actually balefired and yet not one major light character has seen the end. You only have to look at moiraine as the micawber suggested. It actually makes the dark forces seem ineffectual, disorganised, useless, and clearly a side with no strategy what so ever.

 

 

The closest we have come to dark side pawnage was when Rahvin blasted mat and aviendha outta this world. And that ofcourse was negated in the end by balefire. Even when the bad guys are reincarnated they are still taken out without causing too much of a fuss.

 

 

and i think tha's the crux of the issue. It's been 11 books and so far what we haven't in my opinion seen any sort of epicness struggle, desperation, lossess, sense of hopelessness from the forces of light. I don't know it we are going to have a tarmon gaidon that spans 10 years like the war of power but i hope we really get that in the coming books

 

completely agree, especially the last part. even rand's questionable sanity can't detract from the fact that none of our main characters seem in any sort of danger. It would have been a more close run thing if some of the major cities had been taken over by the Shadow. I'd always thought that at least one of the books should have ended with one of the Forsaken leading an attack on the Borderlands and winning. But it seems impossible that the DO can actually put up much of a fight.

 

And to people who claim that food shortage for the Light will kill them, what abt the bloody Trollocs? They ain't eating no humans...The Borderlands have been quiet. And how many Trollocs can SG support anyway? If they grow trollocs anywhere else in the Blight the worms will eat them...See what I'm getting at? I'm not saying I think that the next 3 books will be boring, but I don't see any epic struggle...its a normal, not really challenging struggle.

[Mr. Micawber]

completely agree, especially the last part. even rand's questionable sanity can't detract from the fact that none of our main characters seem in any sort of danger. It would have been a more close run thing if some of the major cities had been taken over by the Shadow. I'd always thought that at least one of the books should have ended with one of the Forsaken leading an attack on the Borderlands and winning. But it seems impossible that the DO can actually put up much of a fight.

 

Actually, this kind of thing is precisely what I was trying to address.

 

It *is* clear the Big Guy can put up a fight. You have to realize that when they say he is "touching" the world, it's really more that the Big Guy is dissolving existence. I think that's huge. So people are absolutely right in saying the Shadow's on top.

 

The problem is that the narrative has failed to show Our Guys in danger despite the astonishing power of the Big Guy. He is, after all, a Dark God, but *within the context of the series* I can't get worked up until I feel that the people I care about are on the knife's edge and perhaps even die.

 

I hate to bring up ASOIAF again, but I want to see the Old Bear's speech before the Fist of the First Men repeated by someone like Egwene in the face of the Seanchan. I want to see someone actually afraid that they might die, while *we* are actually afraid they might die, and say so and hear back that they might all die but "that is why they dress us in black" - and then to have people actually kick the bucket!

 

And have some of those people not be yet another hitherto barely or even unmentioned Maiden for Rand to add to his list or that poor Cairhienin who carried his banner or some schmuck in the Band or in Perrin's forces. Aka people we care about.

 

Edit: Apologies to anyone who's favorite character was that poor schlub who carried the Dragon Banner.

[Braus]

About why the emonds field gang and the rest of the usuall POV in the books arent six feet under already.

 

 

 

To simplified really. And always remember that these 11 books is 2 years of time, not 20.

 

One person in the books have been acknowledged as interesting by the forsaken the whole trip from 1-11, even if it wasnt until book 2 they really knew he was the dragon reborn. And thats Rand. And he has been close to dying a number of times. If its his skill with swords/the one power, his sheer strength, knowledge, his intellect, him being tar veren, the places he has chosen to hide during a few times in say the great hunt/when he goes on trips with Min or a combination between them all that has made him survive, is hard to directly say. Im sure all of them played in, even if you were to remove him being tar veren at this point, he would be a very dangerous foe to meet in a duel.

 

WHO is Elayne/Egwene/Nynanvea/Lan/some Aes Sedai named Moraine/Noal/Olver etc to the forsaken? Sure over the course of the books they have been building a reputation, they have done their parts in stopping some activities, but its pretty much only against Moraine(she "killed" of two forsaken), Nynanvea(she put Moggy on a leash :)) that some attention might have been put.

I mean I doubt the forsaken really knows who moraine was, or anyone except moggy thinks anything special about Nynanvea. Elayne might togheter with nyn have some grudges with a few black sisters they have been hunting, the black bitches, but they have really been nothing in the books for the Forsaken to know their names, and try and kill/capture them. Noone has really. Rand is the single only person who has been a subject for the Forsaken for along time. Regardless if they meant to use him, destroy him, stop him, turn him or make love to him. Mat and Perrin sure did get abit of attention, a very small bit, a very very small bit, they have over the books had some dark friends who tried to kill them etc. But its first now, in KOD(a book that hardly streched over a big spann of time) where they are important enough for Moridin to bring the subject up to his "elite" soldiers when he meet them. Before the only peple who had them on their To Do List was people like the Man Who Called Himself Bors.

 

What people dont want to see, is that now, 2 years after Emonds fields, pretty much most of our characthers that originally were there have become powerfactors to consider. Most of them very Recently, or soon will. Forexample Mat is nothing right now, except tuons bitch and ta veren. Maybe he will become the general of the light, but as of now the word of his military genious has hardly been put to the test as much for people to accept him for what he is. Forexample i bet Ituralde would say, Mat who? Or Gareth Bryne might say he liked what he saw in the Red Band's camp, but he is proberly still skeptical. Egwene has become a rebel amarlyn, very recently also she is supposedly under the control of forsaken, they think they can use her. Elayne has become a queen and lover of the dragon reborn, even if its questionable how many that knows that information, only recently she was captured with all her Aes Sedai friends killed, maybe the Shadow is increasingly interested in her now, but are they more interested in Her right now, than they say are interested in some other Queen or King in Randland? Do they know her connection with Rand? And Nynanvea is still pretty much nothing, she is a strong channeler who at the moment follows Rand around, but strictly speaking, i doubt any Forsaken except Moggy pays any real attention to her, or actually knows of her, except possibly if they were to say knew exactly where Rand was, who was with him and were to attack. Same thing could proberly be said about Cadsuane, both on the light and the shadow side. The light thinks she is dead/retired unless they are one of he people she has been with in Carhien/with Rand and the Shadow either, say a black sister, thinks she is dead/retired, or say a forsaken havent even heard of her, had no real reason to have. She is nothing anyway when talking about people that has been noticed, or is in a power situation that is accepted.

 

SO, we have had alot of characters that our biggest POV's has seen before, been in contact with, affected, who keeps following us around in the books. Most of which are still alive and kicking, but pretty much none of them are important when it comes to politics. If one of them would die, they would die because they were in the way, at least up until now.

Now in KOD/TGS, as said, most of our chars got power stations or are about to get(Perrin/Mat etc). They are suddenly very large pieces on the board, from before being nothing. Its first now that they are in real concious danger, while they before was in unconcious danger, if thats even possible to use as a term :)

 

So thats why our beloved traveler companions havent been killed off. They have first of all not been under alot of threat really, pretty much none "concious" threat and the reason behind why forsaken havent been all over the place trying to finish them off, is because they havent even known about them or cared about them. I bet if we were to have had a POV through the books about a Milk farmer in say Mayene, who milks his cows every day, we would be asking the same question, Why the hell havent Grandael popped out of a waygate already and blown his cows and head into small pieaces, he have been alive for 11 books now, when will we stop having to see him milk his cow at the beginning of every day?

 

But now, they will be under concious threat. The more responsibility of the "lights" campaign against the shadow, they take. The more KOS orders or schemes will be put up around them. The more space you take, the more attention you will get.

 

 

I hope ive explained something obvious enough now. And thats not really a pike, its just that i find this very logical and get frustrated when people keep whining about stuff through loads of posts without actually thinking them through. Think, then whine. Not whine and then not think, because its rather obvious that there is a huge difference between what the POV we get to see are worth for us, and what they have been worth in the larger picture in the whole light vs idiots vs people who think they are good vs the shadow.

 

[BrainFireBob]

 

During the war of power there was no attempt made to convert lews therin by the dark one..

 

 

 

 

This is completely and utterly wrong. LTT survived to fight the fair as long as he did because there were numerous and multiple attempts to turn him- many spearheaded by Lanfear at Ishy's instigation. This is from glossaries and the BWB. It does, however, explain why you are having such issues.

 

 

the attempts to make ltt join th shadows cause was done after the sealing has been done by ishy. no talks of conversion was attempted during the 10 ferocious years of the war of power

 

Flat-out wrong.  Reread Lanfear's entry in the BWB. Reread the Forsaken tea party scenes. More than one Forsaken comments that as many attempts were made to convert Lews Therin as to kill him.

[Jong]

I don't think there is much reason to think that the black tower is going to be fighting for the good guys in the last battle. The Ashaman in the black tower are all strongly loyal to Taim, not Rand.  It seems quite likely that all of them are being groomed to become dreadlords as soon as the time is right.

 

 

[Seven of Nine]

I disagree! Taim has his little faction of specially selected and trained Black Ashaman. There are plenty of others who haven't been deigned as "good enough" for his special training. When the Red AS make that little visit to him at the Black Tower, there's even some comment about that. There are definitely two factions at BT--Taim and Logain.

[Mr. Micawber]

And mulling this over since my last big post on the previous page, I had to add one other thing.

 

What we are shown of the War of Shadow makes it abundantly clear that it really was a struggle, that not only did the Light look like it could not possibly triumph, but that everyone was a target. Everyone would either fall away or else pledge themselves to the Great Lord of the Dark. When we see the following quotes, we can really feel just how desperate the First War was, and yet gnash our teeth about the lack of similar struggles in the Second. One quote comes, in fact, in the very first chapter of the very first book, and it played a major role in hooking me on the series, because it implied so much more. That is another thing, I think, RJ lost his ability to do - and I am terrified based on the current material from TGS that BS may be even worse - which is to show, not tell.

 

Anyway, compare these with earth shattering events implied and great deeds done and the bitterness of loss in the face of constant danger with the feelings we have about the main characters today.

 

From EoTW Prologue

“Once you stood first among the Servants. Once you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin, and sat in the High Seat. Once you summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion. Now look at you! A pitiful, shattered wretch. But it is not enough. You humbled me in the Hall of Servants. You defeated me at the Gates of Paaran Disen. But I am the greater, now. I will not let you die without knowing that. When you die, your last thought will be the full knowledge of your defeat, of how complete and utter it is. If I let you die at all."

 

From TDR What is Written in Prophecy

“You were a greater swordsman, once, Lews Therin,” he said mockingly. “Do you remember when we took that tame sport called swords and learned to kill with it, as the old volumes said men once had? Do you remember even one of those desperate battles, even one of our dire defeats? Of course not. You remember nothing, do you? This time you have not learned enough. This time, Lews Therin, I will kill you.”

 

From FOH A Hound of Darkness

"Do you think that you are my equal, little sister?" Moghedien grimaced in disgust. "Did you stand in the Pit of Doom to dedicate your soul to the Great Lord? Did you taste the sweetness of victory at Paaran Disen, or the bitter ashes at the Asar Don?"

 

From The Lesser Sadness

“Sammael,” Rand said, but not in answer. He was just speaking the thoughts that drifted through the Void. “I remember when he was first named Destroyer of Hope. After he betrayed the Gates of Hevan and carried the Shadow down into the Rorn M’doi and the heart of Satelle. Hope did seem to die that day. Culan Cuhan wept."

 

From LOC Tellings of the Wheel

"Take this message back to Sammael," he said coldly. "Every death he has caused since waking, I lay at his feet and call due. Every murder he has ever done or caused, I lay at his feet and call due. He escaped justice in the Rorn M'doi, and at Nol Caimaine, and Sohadra...." More of Lews Therm's memories, but the pain of what had been done there, the agony of what Lews Therin's eyes had seen,'burned across the Void as if Rand's. "... But I will see justice done now. Tell him, no truce with the Forsaken. No truce with the Shadow."

[The Desert Pea]

Remember though that those events happened during the War of Power itself though, when the whole world was locked in the struggle for reality. And although that is also true now, only a few people really know what's going on. Back in the AoL everyone knew what was happening, everyone knew that the war was between the Light and Shadow. The Shadow was swarming everywhere, it was what we imagine war to be, full-scale combat. That hasn't happened yet, so drastic events like those that made it seem like the Light might fall during the AoL also haven't occurred yet.

 

Once the floodgates open, once Trolloc Armageddon comes storming out of the Blight and the new Dreadlords reveal themselves I think we'll see just how bad a shape the Light is in right now: fractured against each other with a severely wounded champion who happens to be their only hope for salvation. Right now the Light's struggle is personified in Rand, but once TG reaches full scale combat we should see it spread out to the rest of the Light's forces.

[Charlz Guybon]

And mulling this over since my last big post on the previous page, I had to add one other thing.

 

What we are shown of the War of Shadow makes it abundantly clear that it really was a struggle, that not only did the Light look like it could not possibly triumph, but that everyone was a target. Everyone would either fall away or else pledge themselves to the Great Lord of the Dark. When we see the following quotes, we can really feel just how desperate the First War was, and yet gnash our teeth about the lack of similar struggles in the Second. One quote comes, in fact, in the very first chapter of the very first book, and it played a major role in hooking me on the series, because it implied so much more. That is another thing, I think, RJ lost his ability to do - and I am terrified based on the current material from TGS that BS may be even worse - which is to show, not tell.

 

Anyway, compare these with earth shattering events implied and great deeds done and the bitterness of loss in the face of constant danger with the feelings we have about the main characters today.

 

 

All that happened in the war though. The war has not yet begun for our characters. The first 11 books would be better compared to the Collapse. The war is coming and in the next 3 books I expect to see several of the great cities razed to the ground and entire nations ravaged. Millions will die of violence and famine and the Dark One will nearly cause reality to unravel.

[ajfurst]

WHO is Elayne/Egwene/Nynanvea/Lan/some Aes Sedai named Moraine/Noal/Olver etc to the forsaken? Sure over the course of the books they have been building a reputation, they have done their parts in stopping some activities, but its pretty much only against Moraine(she "killed" of two forsaken), Nynanvea(she put Moggy on a leash :)) that some attention might have been put.

Umm, the darkfriend social at the beginning of book 2 with Mat and Perrin ring any bells? Ishamael wanting Nynaeve and Egwene sent to Seanchan in book 2. Ishamael ordering Mat killed in book 3 and killing the Tar Valon DF who let him escape. Sammael doesn't go 'Who?' when Mat is mentioned by Mili in book 6 or 7. The dark has known about the Emond Fielders as being critical since almost the get go.