The DO will be the underdog in Tarmon Gai'don?

[Mr. Micawber]

Neither struggle nor desperation? People are starving, when they can get food it goes bad incredibly quickly, they see dead people walking around, etc. etc. Stories about the Forsaken used to scare children now include real sightings. Wars and rumors of wars.

 

Hmmmm . . . I must be reading a different series than some of you.

 

The people on the side of the Light aren't just the heroes/main characters.

 

I, at least, don't care about the people in general. I care about the people whose story I've been reading for well over a decade. Y'know, the protagonists and other main characters.

 

I think, perhaps, that might be the disconnect here.

[Ted M]

Neither struggle nor desperation? People are starving, when they can get food it goes bad incredibly quickly, they see dead people walking around, etc. etc. Stories about the Forsaken used to scare children now include real sightings. Wars and rumors of wars.

 

Hmmmm . . . I must be reading a different series than some of you.

 

The people on the side of the Light aren't just the heroes/main characters.

 

I, at least, don't care about the people in general. I care about the people whose story I've been reading for well over a decade. Y'know, the protagonists and other main characters.

 

I think, perhaps, that might be the disconnect here.

 

But you can't just disregard everything that's not happening directly to the handful of people who are the major characters.  There's something very wrong with saying that none of the other stuff that's going on in Randland is relevant. 

 

It's not just that people are suffering, it's that despite of the efforts of the main characters, Randland is rather obviously going to hell in a hand-basket.  A huge part of the desperation that I (and apparently many others) see is that despite all the heroic struggles of the main characters, matters just keep getting worse. 

[Mr. Micawber]

At least one of my posts, in this very thread I believe, refers to Randland as a "crapsack" world.

 

Moreover, I had acknowledged over and over that the Big Guy is literally breaking down the fabric of existence.

 

However, I have also articulated that, largely because RJ refused to permanently kill off or even come close to killing off any of the major characters (since we learned fairly quickly that Moiraine was coming back to us), there is very little sense that anyone we care about is going to get killed. That makes it hard to work up too much tension about the rest of the world, because the guys who are almost like real friends to me are still safe.

[sheikh chilli]

The prison is physical, it can be broken down by physical means as lanfear showed and can be sealed up physically as well as LTT showed

 

 

 

You dont know that much about what kind of wall/prison/bubble or w/e stops the Dark one from gaining entrance to the WOT world.

How can you be certain that the AOL was the first time ever that the DO broke free? As far as i can understand it this time around, with Rand and co, the sealing will be perfect. So the next time the Dark one comes out will be when someone "drill" through that perfect seal, it wont evaporuate like the current flawed ones.

 

You got any proof that Lanfear truelly made a fresh opening to the Dark one, and not teared up an existing blockage?

 

 

 

you have to read that book called robert jordan wheel of time. in there it is shown that during the aol there was no concept of dark one at all. he was completely seperate from the world. until ofcourse lanfear and co drilled through the bore. once that happened the darkone extended his reach to the outside world.

 

 

the hole lanfear made was small. certainly  not big enought to enable the dark one to break free. but the boring showed that the prison is physical in nature. therefore anyone with the right nous and strength can seal it or break it open completely.

 

 

 

You shouldnt take that tone before thinking through your logics. Since as far as ive understood the whole Wheel Philoshopy is endless.

 

As said how do you actually know that lanfear drilled a fresh hole and not drilled through an existing blockage?

That the dark one isnt affecting the world is nothing, what kind of world do you think will happen once Rand and CO have sealed the prison again completly? Will the DO's influence be gone, and people slowly start to forget and the wheel turn on?

 

As said, you dont really know that it was a fresh opening that lanfear drilled through, the only reason it would had been would be if it was the first time ever that the DO gained influence over the world, the first turning of the wheel so to say(even if that might be illogical to something that is supposed to be infinitive both forward and backwards)

So the arguement that its possible to break the dark one free with raw physical force is flawed. You might be able to tear the "blockage" open, maybe directly after Rand has resealed it, or you gotta wait. But there is as far as ive read, nothing that prooves that you can actually widen the hole with raw physical force.

 

 

i would say it was a fresh opening that lanfear made because up until that point there was no dark one touching, inflencing the world. There was no concept o shaitan before the drilling.

 

 

the fact that the prison to the dark one can be drilled into as lanfear showed and sealed later by LTT does mean that the prison is a physical one. Therefore it also means that the prison can be broken down comnpletely or made whole completely as well

[Jemlin]

Neither struggle nor desperation? People are starving, when they can get food it goes bad incredibly quickly, they see dead people walking around, etc. etc. Stories about the Forsaken used to scare children now include real sightings. Wars and rumors of wars.

 

Hmmmm . . . I must be reading a different series than some of you.

 

The people on the side of the Light aren't just the heroes/main characters.

 

I, at least, don't care about the people in general. I care about the people whose story I've been reading for well over a decade. Y'know, the protagonists and other main characters.

 

I think, perhaps, that might be the disconnect here.

 

But you can't just disregard everything that's not happening directly to the handful of people who are the major characters.  There's something very wrong with saying that none of the other stuff that's going on in Randland is relevant. 

 

It's not just that people are suffering, it's that despite of the efforts of the main characters, Randland is rather obviously going to hell in a hand-basket.  A huge part of the desperation that I (and apparently many others) see is that despite all the heroic struggles of the main characters, matters just keep getting worse. 

 

Pretty much.

 

It reminds me of how they described the Age of Legends, that due to the Chaos spreading, every time the DO's forces struck, they were more victorious.  The end seemed very obvious to them, so they became desperate.

 

The difference, is that very few in the current age seem to understand how bad of a situation they are in, as their communications are not centralized and there are many camps spread out.  So, its bad and maybe worse, and the main they are depending on is as chaotic and insane as the land he is a part of :/

[sheikh chilli]

Neither struggle nor desperation? People are starving, when they can get food it goes bad incredibly quickly, they see dead people walking around, etc. etc. Stories about the Forsaken used to scare children now include real sightings. Wars and rumors of wars.

 

Hmmmm . . . I must be reading a different series than some of you.

 

The people on the side of the Light aren't just the heroes/main characters.

 

 

i dont care about starving people. the people that are important, the ones i have been reading since book one, the major characters are still alive. they have faced forsaken, black ajah, dark friends, gholam and all sorts of things and they are still alive.

 

alive, alive alive, alive.  after 11 books they are still alive. so where'sthe tension in a battle when you know full well they are going to come out of it unscathed?  there has been no blow that has caused a major setbakc to the forces of light whatsoever. and i mean a proper setback. not some famine or crap like that. i mean stuff like white tower razed to the ground. or andor overrun by trollocs. or forsaken killing any of the major characters.

 

 

its been all fine and dandy save for some monor hiccups along the way for the light.

 

 

 

 

mr ares,

 

those theories made by those expertshave been acknowldeged by LTT. It's possible to rip open the dark one's prison if the sealing was not precise enough. that's why women were wanted in a circle.

[Mr. Micawber]

Neither struggle nor desperation? People are starving, when they can get food it goes bad incredibly quickly, they see dead people walking around, etc. etc. Stories about the Forsaken used to scare children now include real sightings. Wars and rumors of wars.

 

Hmmmm . . . I must be reading a different series than some of you.

 

The people on the side of the Light aren't just the heroes/main characters.

 

 

i dont care about starving people. the people that are important, the ones i have been reading since book one, the major characters are still alive. they have faced forsaken, black ajah, dark friends, gholam and all sorts of things and they are still alive.

 

alive, alive alive, alive.  after 11 books they are still alive. so where'sthe tension in a battle when you know full well they are going to come out of it unscathed?  there has been no blow that has caused a major setbakc to the forces of light whatsoever. and i mean a proper setback. not some famine or crap like that. i mean stuff like white tower razed to the ground. or andor overrun by trollocs. or forsaken killing any of the major characters.

 

 

its been all fine and dandy save for some monor hiccups along the way for the light.

 

 

To go further

 

We might have Gandalf vs. the Balrog, but where's Boromir's death?

 

Where's Frodo collapsing and forcing Sam to carry him on?

 

Where's the Rohirrim charging into battle with little hope of victory?

 

Where's Ned getting his head cut off? Or even Lady being executed and Nymeria driven off?

 

Where's Bran's fall?

 

Where's Quorin saying the words with Jon and then telling him to do what is necessary, even killing him? Where is the Old Bear's speech on the Fist of the First Men? "Many of us," the Old Bear said. "Mayhaps even all of us. But as another Lord Commander said a thousand years ago, that is why they dress us in black."

 

Where's the Old Bear being murdered by his own men, his own brothers? Where's Jon finding Ygritte dying? Where's Mag the Mighty and Donal Noye locked in last embrace in the gate? Where's Jon being asked to be false again and kill Mance under flag of truce? Where's Jon's loss of his brothers - all of them, in his mind, if not ours - and then being offered a chance to take what he's always really wanted but has always been ashamed to want?

 

Where's Tyrion's near death and disfigurement? Where's his bitterness at being humiliated and scorn by every man, with his own father at the head of the line? Where's Tyrion being rejected again and again? Where's Tyrion being condemned as a criminal, the worst sort of criminal, by all? Where's Tyrion betrayed by Shae? Where's Tyrion finding Shae in Tywin's bed? Where's Tyrion finding out that even the one person on the planet who loved him betrayed him and destroyed the only happiness he's ever known?

 

Where's the bloody Red Wedding?

 

 

 

Look, the Big Guy could very well destroy everything that was and is and will be. But he has not touched my friends.

 

If you want despair, desperation, and fear that the Good Guys are losing, read the LotR or ASoIaF, but as of right now, don't read what remains, despite all this, my favorite of them all, WoT. Because that feeling does not occur.

 

[havoc110]

OK, you got me.  I will admit that there is circumstantial evidence of some struggling.  If the heroes weren't important, we could just get by with one long POV from the Two Rivers farmer.  Ironically, he is probably struggling very much.  RJ has trained you to look to "non-main" characters for your "struggle" needs, like the poor denizens of So Harbor, or the mass suicide.  You have to look to these places because on the main arcs, the struggle isn't there.  The rebel AS camp outside TV might as well have spread out their picnic blankets.  Does it feel like "Civil War"?  No, it's just civil war cause RJ told you it was, and you took that at face value.  Or you took it at face value after he told you to take it at face value in his blog.

 

 

[Mr. Micawber]

OK, you got me.  I will admit that there is circumstantial evidence of some struggling.  If the heroes weren't important, we could just get by with one long POV from the Two Rivers farmer.  Ironically, he is probably struggling very much.  RJ has trained you to look to "non-main" characters for your "struggle" needs, like the poor denizens of So Harbor, or the mass suicide.  You have to look to these places because on the main arcs, the struggle isn't there.  The rebel AS camp outside TV might as well have spread out their picnic blankets.  Does it feel like "Civil War"?  No, it's just civil war cause RJ told you it was, and you took that at face value.  Or you took it at face value after he told you to take it at face value in his blog.

 

 

 

Exactly! There's more struggle in the first Harry Potter book, at least to the main characters, than there is in this entire series - because, as Dumbledore said then (although there later was one) there could be no Last Battle against evil, and I have no idea how JK Rowling got away with this in a children's book, but that the best good could do was force back evil for a while. That's a pretty bleak message for eight and nine year olds.

[Ted M]

its been all fine and dandy save for some monor hiccups along the way for the light.

 

Sure, except for the fact that nothing they've managed to do has actually managed to hurt the forces of the dark significantly, and the whole shebang is completely falling apart around them.  Yeah, none of them have died.  So what.  That doesn't mean they're winning.  Not by a long shot.  Just because the people of Randland fail to see the big picture and realize how bad the situation they're in is, that doesn't mean that the reader (who has the big picture) shouldn't.  

 

The good guys haven't been facing Sauron and his unlimited supplies of orcs.  The Dark One is subtler, and in many ways more effective for having to be.  Lord of the Rings presented a world where people communicated with one another and all the forces that resisted the Sauron banded together, with the only defection from within being Saruman and that happening early.  Imagine a Return of the King where the elves, dwarves, Rohirrim, rangers, and forces of Minas Tirith were all refusing to talk to one another, riddled with troops who were secretly loyal to Sauron, and generally going their own way.  You could easily have given them back Boromir and killed off a couple of Nazgul and Sauron still would have overwhelmed them.  Of course they were all just a holding action while Frodo disposed of the ring, just like everyone else is just a holding/support action while Rand does whatever he has to do to get rid of the Dark One.  Of course, unlike Frodo, Rand doesn't actually know what he needs to do to defeat the Dark One, and he's not really in any better shape than Frodo was at the end either.  The biggest difference, overall, is that in Middle Earth all the groups and characters were smart enough to realize just how much trouble they were in, while in Randland, they're not.  To me, that makes the people of Randland worse off, not better off.

 

As for GRRM, I've tried starting The Song of Ice and Fire about 5 times.  I've never gotten past about the first hundred and fifty pages.  At that point, I get frustrated because every time I start getting remotely interested in a character, the POV shifts to someone who has no contact at all with the previous person.  There hasn't been any semblance of a plot at that point, and it just loses my attention, as I find I can't build up an interest in the people, world, or events.  I've been told how fantastic it is so many times that I keep trying, but I just can't get into it enough to reach the point where it apparently becomes interesting.  So forgive me if I'm not bothered by the fact that Jordan didn't do things the same way that Martin does.

[havoc110]

Currently reading The Court of Air, by Stephen Hunt (Tor).  Steampunky adventure goodness.  But the civil war depicted therein is decidedly less "civil" and a lot more "war".  Some gruesome stuff that Stephen Hunt has delivered where WoT has failed.  To be fair, early volumes of WoT were much better in this regard.  But many still fail to recognize that while the framework counts for something, epic struggles can only happen on the epic level.  The level where the epic hero is.  Not where the Two Rivers farmer is.  People are arguing that they carry the same weight.  Sorry, they don't.

[Braus]

 

 

You dont agree i got a point in what ive been trying to say for two pages though? As far as i can say, if one of our "real" main POV this far would had died, it would be more of happenstance or by the work of "normal" darkfriends(which most of them are powerful enough to escape easily. Looking back i remember stuff like when Mat gets attacked by Aiel, Perrin gets hit in the shoulder with an arrow etc)

And its still only 2 years of time, MOST OF THAT TIME our POV have been absolutely nothing, just teenagers. As said just think about the time spent in Eye of the World and The Great Hunt. Its first now they are on the enemy radars, they have become targets, at least some of them.

[Mr. Micawber]

 

 

You dont agree i got a point in what ive been trying to say for two pages though? As far as i can say, if one of our "real" main POV this far would had died, it would be more of happenstance or by the work of "normal" darkfriends(which most of them are powerful enough to escape easily. Looking back i remember stuff like when Mat gets attacked by Aiel, Perrin gets hit in the shoulder with an arrow etc)

And its still only 2 years of time, MOST OF THAT TIME our POV have been absolutely nothing, just teenagers. As said just think about the time spent in Eye of the World and The Great Hunt. Its first now they are on the enemy radars, they have become targets, at least some of them.

 

It does not have to be a POV character. Where on earth was Sirius' POV? Or Dumbledore's?

 

I want a major character. The only indisputable main character to snuff it was Moiraine - and she's not dead, yet - and possibly Ingtar, in Book Two. Moreover, the latter was far more Death=Redemption out of TvTropes than anything else.

[havoc110]

 

 

You dont agree i got a point in what ive been trying to say for two pages though? As far as i can say, if one of our "real" main POV this far would had died, it would be more of happenstance or by the work of "normal" darkfriends(which most of them are powerful enough to escape easily. Looking back i remember stuff like when Mat gets attacked by Aiel, Perrin gets hit in the shoulder with an arrow etc)

And its still only 2 years of time, MOST OF THAT TIME our POV have been absolutely nothing, just teenagers. As said just think about the time spent in Eye of the World and The Great Hunt. Its first now they are on the enemy radars, they have become targets, at least some of them.

 

By my watch it's been almost 20 years.  If by some chance you happen to be a Randlander, then wow, this whole internet thing is more powerful than I thought.  I have to apologize, because things are probably really crappy for you right now.  I have some good news though, the teenagers who are going to save your world aren't in any real danger, and the evil forces they are trying to defeat are stupid.

[Braus]

Neither struggle nor desperation? People are starving, when they can get food it goes bad incredibly quickly, they see dead people walking around, etc. etc. Stories about the Forsaken used to scare children now include real sightings. Wars and rumors of wars.

 

Hmmmm . . . I must be reading a different series than some of you.

 

The people on the side of the Light aren't just the heroes/main characters.

 

 

i dont care about starving people. the people that are important, the ones i have been reading since book one, the major characters are still alive. they have faced forsaken, black ajah, dark friends, gholam and all sorts of things and they are still alive.

 

That aint true and you know it. The only person that truelly been heads on with forsaken is Nynanvea and Rand. Rand has been in true danger, while Nynanvea was more of a plaything in the beginning for Mogadhien until she got tricked real bad. And i doubt you think its a bad thing that the Dragon reborn, which the whole story orbits around, is still alive to reach the last battle.

 

About Black Ajah, that has all been something they searched up themselves. They were the hunters, true very new at their trade, but still they had quite some qualities that made them successful. If you read the black ajah parts, especially the ones about the two black ajah sisters in Ebou dar, you will see that they didnt even know that Elayne and Nynanvea was in Tanchico, not at the time at least.

 

And about normal darkfriends lurking about, thats a threat indeed. But the kind of characters we follow and the few(havent been that many, not split between chars) incidents we have had with darkfriends trying to assasinate or capture, have all been fair enough. Its not unbeliveable that they'd survive something like that.

 

Honestly, it has been 2 years(- at least 1 year truthfully more of traveling/training/innocence) Its first now that they truelly, the "tier 2" chars, are in power positons and targets for the shadow. Whats so unbelievable about that? If the forsaken had been hunting them all during these two years and none would had died, fine thats plain unresonable. But they havent, they actually havent really tried hunting any of them except Rand.

 

alive, alive alive, alive. The 11 book comment is just giving the wrong image, after 2 years(of which the first year and a few months was pretty much traveling/training)books they are still alive. so where'sthe tension in a battle when you know full well they are going to come out of it unscathed?  there has been no blow that has caused a major setbakc to the forces of light whatsoever. and i mean a proper setback. not some famine or crap like that. i mean stuff like white tower razed to the ground. or andor overrun by trollocs. or forsaken killing any of the major characters.

 

 

its been all fine and dandy save for some monor hiccups along the way for the light.

 

 

 

 

mr ares,

 

those theories made by those expertshave been acknowldeged by LTT. It's possible to rip open the dark one's prison if the sealing was not precise enough. that's why women were wanted in a circle.

[sheikh chilli]

its been all fine and dandy save for some monor hiccups along the way for the light.

 

Sure, except for the fact that nothing they've managed to do has actually managed to hurt the forces of the dark significantly, and the whole shebang is completely falling apart around them.  Yeah, none of them have died.  

 

the shadow is a space of few months since rand declared as the dragon reborn have lost almost all their forsaken allies. They have lost tear, andor, illian and carihien. The shaido have been vanquished utterly. The children of light are no longer run by idiots anymore.

 

saidin has been cleansed. The light is aware of the dark forces hiding in the white tower and black tower as well.  As elaidai foretold the tower will be strong once again presumably egwene. Theblack tower will be rent in fire and blood and sisters will walk it's grounds. That would end taim's time in the black tower. He will die or he will escape.

 

The good ashaman will join the white tower in the end.

 

The light have got all the aces and all the moves. They have the most powerful and second most powerful sangreal amongst them. not to mention other artifacts in the white tower and ofcourse the horn of valere.They have the soldiers of all the nations under rands control, the aiel, the white tower, the ashaman, the seanchan, the wise ones, the windfinders and more importantly the awesome kin

 

 

if 30 channllers vanguished a 100,000 trollocs within minutes then i shudder to think what the above troops would do the shadow.

[Braus]

 

 

i would say it was a fresh opening that lanfear made because up until that point there was no dark one touching, inflencing the world. There was no concept o shaitan before the drilling.

 

 

 

I dont see the reason why the dark one needs to influence the world when he is sealed away properly.

Whats Rands mission impossible after all? to Seal away the dark one so he cant influence the world right? What age will that bring if he suceeds, with the turning of the wheel? How will the Dark one break free again when its time again, when the wheel have turned back to the "AOL" moment?

[Braus]

 

 

You dont agree i got a point in what ive been trying to say for two pages though? As far as i can say, if one of our "real" main POV this far would had died, it would be more of happenstance or by the work of "normal" darkfriends(which most of them are powerful enough to escape easily. Looking back i remember stuff like when Mat gets attacked by Aiel, Perrin gets hit in the shoulder with an arrow etc)

And its still only 2 years of time, MOST OF THAT TIME our POV have been absolutely nothing, just teenagers. As said just think about the time spent in Eye of the World and The Great Hunt. Its first now they are on the enemy radars, they have become targets, at least some of them.

 

It does not have to be a POV character. Where on earth was Sirius' POV? Or Dumbledore's?

 

I want a major character. The only indisputable main character to snuff it was Moiraine - and she's not dead, yet - and possibly Ingtar, in Book Two. Moreover, the latter was far more Death=Redemption out of TvTropes than anything else.

 

What do you mean it dont have to be a POV char?

Im talking about Egwene/Elayne/nyn/lan/mat/perrin/thom/jul etc. And my point, which noone seems to agree or even bother to quote disagree and proove me wrong, is that they havent been under that kind of threat that would justify the mad outcry for dead "POV"(see index above). They havent been under that kind of threat. If Elayne had been the queen of andor from the beginning of the books to the end, i bet she would be Rahvins pet or dead.

You gotta start looking at what kind of characters we have been following, what exactly they have been, not only to us, but in the Randland. What exactly they have done, have they been hiding? training? traveling? How long time have they actually been involved.

[Braus]

 

 

You dont agree i got a point in what ive been trying to say for two pages though? As far as i can say, if one of our "real" main POV this far would had died, it would be more of happenstance or by the work of "normal" darkfriends(which most of them are powerful enough to escape easily. Looking back i remember stuff like when Mat gets attacked by Aiel, Perrin gets hit in the shoulder with an arrow etc)

And its still only 2 years of time, MOST OF THAT TIME our POV have been absolutely nothing, just teenagers. As said just think about the time spent in Eye of the World and The Great Hunt. Its first now they are on the enemy radars, they have become targets, at least some of them.

 

By my watch it's been almost 20 years.  If by some chance you happen to be a Randlander, then wow, this whole internet thing is more powerful than I thought.  I have to apologize, because things are probably really crappy for you right now.  I have some good news though, the teenagers who are going to save your world aren't in any real danger, and the evil forces they are trying to defeat are stupid.

 

Not sure what you are on about. You obviously didnt manage to read what ive been saying. Am i bad at english, or are you? i can agree that my sentences are very unorganized sometimes and i sure have some spelling errors, but still.

[Mr. Micawber]

Err, Braus, I think you're ignoring some things about how aware the Shadow is.

 

Elan Morin, from the prologue of TGH, had his buddies looking for and possibly killing the three guys.

 

Liandrin was explicitly ordered to dispose of Eggs and Nynaeve. Then, when the two returned to the WT, they had another attempt on their lives, which we later learned was diverted only because Slayer popped out and killed that Grey Man.

 

The three SuperGirls were then lured into a trap in Tear, tho it is unclear whether Elan Morin or Be'lal was behind it, while Rah'vin sent his *own* special assassin to kill off Elayne.

 

Mat, of course, was hunted through out TDR; Perrin wasn't really, except when the Grey Men were sent against him in Illian, but the Two Rivers campaign explicitly metasized because he was there. We know this because Slayer tells him, in TSR.

 

Mat, of course, had to worry about the usual business of being close to Rand in TSR, but in FOH, the Shadow went full out trying to kill him - including, of course, the Darkhounds in Rhuidean, and the Sammael/Rah'vin/Graendal/Lanfear attempt to kill him by Mel in order to remove a ta'veren and goad Rand into walking into their trap at the same time.

 

Meanwhile, in TSR, Moghedien, while not hunting them at first, definitely stays aware of the SuperGirls in Tanchico. She goes mano-a-mano with Nyn and loses. But then spends all of FOH tracking the two in order to destroy them, but making the classic villain mistake, she wants them to suffer instead of killing them directly.

 

In LOC, we know that the Shadow is still after Mat, with at least one assassination attempt, while the Black Ajah more or less masterminds the capture of Rand.

 

In ACOS, we really see the Shadow going after the non-Rand characters. Mat is a target for many Darkfriends in Ebou Dar, and Sammael certainly knows about him, having ordered his death back in FOH, and of course, the two SuperGirls face a ton of Shadow opposition, including the nastiest of nasties, the Gholam, which was almost certainly ordered by Sammael to kill them. They are saved because apparently gholam are allergic to shellfish, silver, and foxheaded medallions.

 

In POD, we know that the Shadow is absolutely concerned with killing off Elayne and possibly Avi, but that it is trying stealth, by inserting Daved Hanlon into Elayne's bodyguard.

 

There's poisonings and attempted stabbings, near misses from balefire and archers, irrelevant side characters galore are killed!

 

And despite the Shadow going after these kids for ten books, only the man himself has any kind of injury, and a Luke Skywalker one at that, and none of their major supporting folk are killed either.

 

I don't think the two years span is particularly relevant, I think the eleven thousand bloody pages and the sheer quantity of failed attempts are. I've been waiting a dozen years to see some desperation.

[Braus]

its been all fine and dandy save for some monor hiccups along the way for the light.

 

Sure, except for the fact that nothing they've managed to do has actually managed to hurt the forces of the dark significantly, and the whole shebang is completely falling apart around them.  Yeah, none of them have died.  

 

the shadow is a space of few months since rand declared as the dragon reborn have lost almost all their forsaken allies. They have lost tear, andor, illian and carihien. The shaido have been vanquished utterly. The children of light are no longer run by idiots anymore.

 

saidin has been cleansed. The light is aware of the dark forces hiding in the white tower and black tower as well.  As elaidai foretold the tower will be strong once again presumably egwene. Theblack tower will be rent in fire and blood and sisters will walk it's grounds. That would end taim's time in the black tower. He will die or he will escape.

 

The good ashaman will join the white tower in the end.

 

The light have got all the aces and all the moves. They have the most powerful and second most powerful sangreal amongst them. not to mention other artifacts in the white tower and ofcourse the horn of valere.They have the soldiers of all the nations under rands control, the aiel, the white tower, the ashaman, the seanchan, the wise ones, the windfinders and more importantly the awesome kin

 

 

if 30 channllers vanguished a 100,000 trollocs within minutes then i shudder to think what the above troops would do the shadow.

 

 

Oh yeah, and one more thing, we all know that Mat will survive the last battle. So obviously the dark one has already lost, no use reading the last few books we know who to bet our money on.

[Braus]

Err, Braus, I think you're ignoring some things about how aware the Shadow is.

 

Elan Morin, from the prologue of TGH, had his buddies looking for and possibly killing the three guys.

 

Liandrin was explicitly ordered to dispose of Eggs and Nynaeve. Then, when the two returned to the WT, they had another attempt on their lives, which we later learned was diverted only because Slayer popped out and killed that Grey Man.

 

The three SuperGirls were then lured into a trap in Tear, tho it is unclear whether Elan Morin or Be'lal was behind it, while Rah'vin sent his *own* special assassin to kill off Elayne.

 

Mat, of course, was hunted through out TDR; Perrin wasn't really, except when the Grey Men were sent against him in Illian, but the Two Rivers campaign explicitly metasized because he was there. We know this because Slayer tells him, in TSR.

 

Mat, of course, had to worry about the usual business of being close to Rand in TSR, but in FOH, the Shadow went full out trying to kill him - including, of course, the Darkhounds in Rhuidean, and the Sammael/Rah'vin/Graendal/Lanfear attempt to kill him by Mel in order to remove a ta'veren and goad Rand into walking into their trap at the same time.

 

Meanwhile, in TSR, Moghedien, while not hunting them at first, definitely stays aware of the SuperGirls in Tanchico. She goes mano-a-mano with Nyn and loses. But then spends all of FOH tracking the two in order to destroy them, but making the classic villain mistake, she wants them to suffer instead of killing them directly.

 

In LOC, we know that the Shadow is still after Mat, with at least one assassination attempt, while the Black Ajah more or less masterminds the capture of Rand.

 

In ACOS, we really see the Shadow going after the non-Rand characters. Mat is a target for many Darkfriends in Ebou Dar, and Sammael certainly knows about him, having ordered his death back in FOH, and of course, the two SuperGirls face a ton of Shadow opposition, including the nastiest of nasties, the Gholam, which was almost certainly ordered by Sammael to kill them. They are saved because apparently gholam are allergic to shellfish, silver, and foxheaded medallions.

 

In POD, we know that the Shadow is absolutely concerned with killing off Elayne and possibly Avi, but that it is trying stealth, by inserting Daved Hanlon into Elayne's bodyguard.

 

There's poisonings and attempted stabbings, near misses from balefire and archers, irrelevant side characters galore are killed!

 

And despite the Shadow going after these kids for ten books, only the man himself has any kind of injury, and a Luke Skywalker one at that, and none of their major supporting folk are killed either.

 

I don't think the two years span is particularly relevant, I think the eleven thousand bloody pages and the sheer quantity of failed attempts are. I've been waiting a dozen years to see some desperation.

 

Can answer tomorrow, but in my mind my point stands. These arent comparable to being a real target of the shadow. Im pretty sure darkfriends all across WOT world are scheming, being ordered around and killing of certain people.

 

Noone of our POV is taking a walk in the park ofc, but there is as said a huge difference and between priority and effort.

[havoc110]

 

Can answer tomorrow, but in my mind my point stands. These arent comparable to being a real target of the shadow. Im pretty sure darkfriends all across WOT world are scheming, being ordered around and killing of certain people.

 

 

And here is the real irrelevance (or is it relevance) of your argument.  Somehow the main characters aren't the target of the shadow?  Off camera plenty of other Darkfriends are killing plenty of other people?

 

I'll tell you what this is.  You're imagining things extraneous to the story in order to buy into RJ's "Dark is winning" theory.  Somewhere, the Dark One's real target is being torn to shreds by Darkfriends unknown?  Is that the best you got?

 

Also irrelevant is this "It's only been two years" argument.  It doesn't matter how long the story is in Randland time.  What matters is what the readers are experiencing.  And judging by the above statement, our experiences may not be so far apart after all.

 

Hello to all out there who think this argument is about something other than the reader's experience.  It's not even about whether the Dark is winning or the Light is winning.  It's about the reader's experience.  I don't really care about which Darkfriend is doing what to who.  It's incidental.  (Some of the incidentals are fun, though, don't get me wrong).  But most people here are rebuking arguments about the story and our experience of the story as readers with insignificant points, like "it's only been 2 years".

 

Our culture has cornerstone epic stories.  RJ with WoT doesn't try to hide the fact that he wants it to stand up with those stories.  Does it?  Doesn't it?  Why does or doesn't it? 

 

Fine to all those who say that WoT is the best epic saga of all time.  I'm all for it.  I can say I like it about as much as LotR or Star Wars.  But some of us see where the story may be lacking.  (Note the author's rush to defend against any such argument).  I can read text as well as the next person.  I don't have complete recollection of all the threads, just my personal favs, probably like most posters here.  But sometimes the text and the feeling a reader might get when reading that text don't agree.  You can't prove or refute this argument with the original text.  Someone here called Sammael a brilliant general, or something to that effect.  Where/how could you get that idea?  'Cause the BWB said so?  'Cause the words "brilliant general" were used to describe him in the story text?  So what?  The lasting impression I got from Sammael, through his words and his actions was "idiot and coward".  Please don't point me to the BWB as proof of my error.

 

Some issues are in-story issues, like who killed Asmo.  We can nit pick all the clues, non-clues, and red herrings until we turn blue.  That's fun, too.  The balance of good and evil is both an in-story and above-story issue.  I get the in-story stuff.  We all get it (or at least most of us get most of it).  But if you look at RJ's "dumb evil" post and those here that quote similar circumstantial issues, it's like you are making my/our point for me/us.  Contrary to what may be popular belief, TG will not be won by weevils in bread or bacteria in spoiled meat^**.  You can quote that scripture as long as you like.  It's all background.  Some of us would like to see the struggle in the foreground, too.  And I understand that some here think we're crazy, that we can't see it, but all you offer is the same tired list of stuff in the background. 

 

TG will also not be won by unknown DFs in unknown places killing unknown "real" targets of the DO.  Braus, you're inventing stuff to make your case.  I applaud your efforts to explain why the good guys are having such an easy time.  Clearly the Dark One's attention must be elsewhere.  I tend to explain it differently:  "Rand IS actually the target of the Dark One and the storyline is very thin in making a difficult path for him and his allies."  Try it on for size.  In fact you probably sped right by it on the way to your "Rand and Co. are not the real target" theory.

 

 

^**  Much more likely is a scene in TGS where a previously unremarkable AS chokes on a weevil, or gets a bad case of e-coli and dies, whereupon her illusory disguise wears off and she is discovered to have been Mesaana. :P

[Charlz Guybon]

At least one of my posts, in this very thread I believe, refers to Randland as a "crapsack" world.

 

Moreover, I had acknowledged over and over that the Big Guy is literally breaking down the fabric of existence.

 

However, I have also articulated that, largely because RJ refused to permanently kill off or even come close to killing off any of the major characters (since we learned fairly quickly that Moiraine was coming back to us), there is very little sense that anyone we care about is going to get killed. That makes it hard to work up too much tension about the rest of the world, because the guys who are almost like real friends to me are still safe.

But it doesn't matter if the people we like manage to stay alive, if millions of people are dying due to war and starvation, the light is losing. You're falling prey to the point of view trap.

[Mr. Micawber]

Of course I'm falling prey to it. I said that like four pages back!

 

As I said, intellectually I know the Big Guy is probably winning.

 

But the desperation and despair and all that jazz that RJ says I should be feeling isn't there. Why? Because he did a truly mediocre job of demonstrating that the people I care about are in any real danger.

 

If he and BS can make me fear again, then the fact of the Big Guy's power, the fact that reality is crumbling as we speak, well, then I'll feel the way that he thought I should be feeling.

 

As Dumbledore said in OotP, I don't give a fig for faceless, nameless people in the future when I have the people I care about safe and happy in the here-and-now.

 

If RJ wants me to feel the despair, he sure as hell better make my friends in the story feel it first.

 

Edit: One more thing. Lan's not a POV character, but lemme tell you, if he goes out, I'll feel it. Like I said before, Moiraine's death was one of the most powerful moments - or was until we learned she's coming back. Losing Cads would probably hit me, so would Sulin, there's a Maiden who's actually a character, not just a name in Rand's bloody head. Sorilea would matter or Bashere, if they went out in ways befitting them.

 

But he refused to touch anyone, except Ingtar, and that was probably one of the most obvious Death = Redemption stories that I'm surprised TvTropes didn't have his picture up for that entry.