The DO will be the underdog in Tarmon Gai'don?

[ajfurst]

GRRM, despite his reputation, hasn't actually killed significantly more characters than RJ, but what he *has* done is to make us fear for Our Guys.

I call the WOT deaths, the 'Red-shirt effect'. Any Star Trek fan would know plenty of red-shirts died, but you never feared Kirk, Spock, etc. would die a final death. RJ is the same. Doesn't matter how many maidens near by die with Rand going 'Phew, that's close, add another name to the list', there isn't and never has been a real fear he would die. Now with Rand (and Mat and Perrin), that's ok, they are the 3 legs of the tripod and need to at least make it to the Last Battle.

 

The (final) death of one of the non-Ta'veren major characters, or at least a character very close to one of them would have ratched up the suspense. I would have really liked to have seen by around book 5 or 6 someone of real note die (and stay dead). I still hope to see in TGS - but don't expect to - at least a couple of Faile, Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene, Lan, Aviendha, Min or Gawyn die. Egwene sacrificing herself to save the Tower, now that'd be a neat twist. Or her having the choice of Gawyn living or her Amyrlin. Ditto for some of the other '2nd tier' characters - either something really dark to happen to them or one very close would definitely make it less 'their firing 70 machine guns at them, but somehow they all miss' type scenarios we keep getting.

[Jong]

I disagree! Taim has his little faction of specially selected and trained Black Ashaman. There are plenty of others who haven't been deigned as "good enough" for his special training. When the Red AS make that little visit to him at the Black Tower, there's even some comment about that. There are definitely two factions at BT--Taim and Logain.

 

At Logain's house we see a half dozen dedicated handing out waiting for their orders. Not much of a faction, if you ask me.

 

"The silly Brown natteres on as she carried out her domestic tasks like a contented farmwife. 'I've learned a good deal already. Logain is the only full Asha'man to live here in this village. The others all live in Taim's 'palace'...'"

-- Prologue, Winter's Heart.

 

The meaning is clear -- Logain is the outsider. Taim is the M'Hael.

 

And in KOD Ch. 18: Logian warns Rand that Taim has 41 Asha'man in his tower within the tower. As well as 50 more Dedicated in his special classes. And that Taim is concentrating his strength in the tower and sending the others out on missions. Rand doesn't trust Logain any more than Taim so he doesn't seem to take the issue seriously.

 

Logain just gave Rand his chance to support him in making a move on Taim. Rand turned him down. If Logian tries anything its him who will be branded as a traitor and hunted down, not Taim. Taim is secure and can just keep recruiting until he decides to make his move. As it is now he could take almost 100 hand picked men with him and give the rest at the BT a choice, join or die.

[Braus]

WHO is Elayne/Egwene/Nynanvea/Lan/some Aes Sedai named Moraine/Noal/Olver etc to the forsaken? Sure over the course of the books they have been building a reputation, they have done their parts in stopping some activities, but its pretty much only against Moraine(she "killed" of two forsaken), Nynanvea(she put Moggy on a leash :)) that some attention might have been put.

Umm, the darkfriend social at the beginning of book 2 with Mat and Perrin ring any bells? Ishamael wanting Nynaeve and Egwene sent to Seanchan in book 2. Ishamael ordering Mat killed in book 3 and killing the Tar Valon DF who let him escape. Sammael doesn't go 'Who?' when Mat is mentioned by Mili in book 6 or 7. The dark has known about the Emond Fielders as being critical since almost the get go.

 

Read my post i mentioned the meeting in the beginning of the great hunt, the meeting with normal dark friends who had no idea where they were and was spread about all over the world. Because of that meeting there have been attempts, many, but only by normal darkfriends.

And my point is that they havent been important, they have only been important to us through the books. It is first now that some of them have gotten the kind of attention that might end up killing them. It has taken some of the char's 2 years, but now some of them have gotten into positions that are critical for the "light"(honestly hate calling it that), or will soon be in those positions.

Pretty much everyone except Rand has been almost unimportant throughout the books. instead the Forsaken in the beginning have been toying with kings and queens, infiltrated whole countries and organisations. So it's not alarming at all that alot of our POV havent died yet. The situations they have been in where their lie have been in danger, have usually been pretty good odds for them.

[Braus]

'their firing 70 machine guns at them, but somehow they all miss' type scenarios we keep getting.

 

That havent happened yet to any of your tier 2 characters, not directly at them so why would any of them die? Ofc they could die because they were say close to Rand when some forsaken attacked him, or fall down a stair or what not. But no big FOCUS has been on any of the tier 2 chars, until now pretty much, they havent been in that kind of danger. Now you got a pretty big KOS order standing on Mat and Perrin, a order that everyone who serves the dark one are stressed and informed about, not only Bors. So while it could had happened, that one of them would ahve died during the course of the books, they sure have put themselves in stupid situations. There is no real reason why one or more of them SHOULD HAD DIED because hardly any effort has been put into hunting any of them, comparable to what Rand has gone through. They havent, as said, been anything except possible very good friends with Rands(which he continually makes comments about how he needs to cut himself free from his old home and friends to make them less of a target, throughout the books) We got no idea if, and for how long they have known about Rands 3 loves, or if they bought the whole Rand vs Perrin fight in Carhien.

 

[havoc110]

And mulling this over since my last big post on the previous page, I had to add one other thing.

 

What we are shown of the War of Shadow makes it abundantly clear that it really was a struggle, that not only did the Light look like it could not possibly triumph, but that everyone was a target. Everyone would either fall away or else pledge themselves to the Great Lord of the Dark. When we see the following quotes, we can really feel just how desperate the First War was, and yet gnash our teeth about the lack of similar struggles in the Second. One quote comes, in fact, in the very first chapter of the very first book, and it played a major role in hooking me on the series, because it implied so much more. That is another thing, I think, RJ lost his ability to do - and I am terrified based on the current material from TGS that BS may be even worse - which is to show, not tell.

 

Anyway, compare these with earth shattering events implied and great deeds done and the bitterness of loss in the face of constant danger with the feelings we have about the main characters today.

 

 

All that happened in the war though. The war has not yet begun for our characters. The first 11 books would be better compared to the Collapse. The war is coming and in the next 3 books I expect to see several of the great cities razed to the ground and entire nations ravaged. Millions will die of violence and famine and the Dark One will nearly cause reality to unravel.

 

Ugh, CG I don't disagree with you, but you've put it in a nutshell my main problem with the series, when one steps back and looks at it as a whole.  What, 11 books of buildup for 3 books of "struggle" or "war"?  Oh, the war starts now?  Using the original Star Wars Trilogy for comparison, then we've spent 11 books going through like the 1st hour of Ep.IV?  I certainly expect things to go similarly to your description.  The issue is if the DO can be the badass in books 12,13,14,14a,14b,etc. all of a sudden, then why not during the 1st 11?  As great as WoT is and hopefully/probably will be, there's an awful lot of extra greatness that was left sitting on the table.

 

And this argument that the DO didn't know?  Step outside the story for a second.  How easy would it be just sneak around, avoid the Forsaken, and just seal up the Bore at the end?  And then the DO says "If only I had seen you coming..."  Isn't that a stupid concept?  So from the moment the Trollocs come to Emond's Field, it's on. "It" being the epic struggle.  Now there's incomplete info at the beginning for both sides, but when someone is proclaimed "Dragon", pretty much the hidden information is over. 

 

Oh, and for the "it's in there" argument, Rand mentions in an aside in TGS ch.1 that they go from manor to manor.  In earlier books in this series, that was running out just before the bad guys arrive, and having the building they were previously staying torched to the ground, the good people having sheltered them now dead.  Those things that were central plot elements that added suspense, those are now reduced to brief asides.  But Rand has to sleep in a different bed every night, Dark must be winning...  Please...

[Mr Ares]

But i have shown repeatedly fron my posts that the dark one's prison can be broken without the need for rand's conversion.

You have shown no such thing.

Worse, several experts claimed that if the seals were not placed with exact precision, the resulting strain would, instead of sealing up the Bore, rip it open, freeing the Dark One completely.Lews Therin argued again for his plan, acknowledging the risks but saying that was now the only chance

You have shown that there were theories, not that it was a certainty that it could be done. So you have shown nothing.

 

the attempts to make ltt join th shadows cause was done after the sealing has been done by ishy. no talks of conversion was attempted during the 10 ferocious years of the war of power

You have nothing to support that, despite being asked.

 

in head to head battle

Aside from the fact you still ignore the Shadow having an evil god, who said this will be a head to head battle? The Shadow has infiltrated the Light. Many of their allies are, in fact, their enemies.

 

Egwene sacrificing herself to save the Tower, now that'd be a neat twist.

There's been some potential foreshadowing of Egwene's death, so it would make sense.

 

On major characters dying, bear in mind that RJ was working to a plan. He knew where he was going. So he couldn't just off Rand halfway through, not without upsetting his plans. And he didn't originally plan for it to be this many books, so having a main character die in, say, book 3 is much less of a wait. And killing off main characters seems to be more popular these days than it was when RJ began. Personally, I'm not bothered by the lack of main character deaths, because surviving 2-3 years is not that implausible, and also because death is in and of itself not a hugely interesting thing to happen to a character. Sure, RJ could have planned to have a guy who was useful in the first half of the series, but who got killed by the Shadow after a while, but he didn't. It's not a huge problem.

[Mr. Micawber]

On major characters dying, bear in mind that RJ was working to a plan. He knew where he was going. So he couldn't just off Rand halfway through, not without upsetting his plans. And he didn't originally plan for it to be this many books, so having a main character die in, say, book 3 is much less of a wait. And killing off main characters seems to be more popular these days than it was when RJ began. Personally, I'm not bothered by the lack of main character deaths, because surviving 2-3 years is not that implausible, and also because death is in and of itself not a hugely interesting thing to happen to a character. Sure, RJ could have planned to have a guy who was useful in the first half of the series, but who got killed by the Shadow after a while, but he didn't. It's not a huge problem.

 

Ares, I do think that you're right that 2-3 years isn't implausible. I often forget that while the first six books encompass 1.5-2 years, the last five have only been a few months. I think that RJ got lost in the pacing, and that based on the first six, he certainly would have a higher body count than he does now.

 

However, I would dispute your point about how killing main characters is more popular these days.

 

Boromir dying - hell, it even took two books for him to die - was bigger than anything we've yet seen (also, I like Sean Penn a lot, so I was pretty annoyed that he couldn't have been Aragorn instead of Mr. McSmoldering Intensity). And Gandalf's death is about as big as Moiraine's, especially if you've first read the Hobbit; even though he eventually returns, at the end of the Fellowship, I'd say that Tolkien has done better at despair than Jordan did.

[Braus]

Dunno if the pacing is screwed up. The first books was pretty much traveling, until they learnt to travel. And they were all still abit innocent and rose on their cheeks in those books. After all if you can make a 24 hour long tv serie out of 1 day :) then why not a few books that just handles a few months :)

[sheikh chilli]

ares,

 

they were theories but certainly theories that LEWS THERIN TELAMON ACKNOWLEDGED HIMSELF. Why did you think his intial plan was to include a women in a circle? because the sealing would have a greater chance of being done with great precision. That's why LTT went the whole time begging for the women to join his plan. women are vert dextrous and precise when it comes to the one power. It is a way to compensate them for men being stronger in the one power. The greatest things in AOL were women and men working together.

 

 

by the way when lanfear and co drilled through the bore and into the dark one prison, what did that show? that the nature of the dark one's prison is physical in nature and is not connected to some mumbo jumbo conversion looney theores such as the dragon being absolutely turned to the darkside for the prison to be unravelled. The prison is physical, it can be broken down by physical means as lanfear showed and can be sealed up physically as well as LTT showed

 

 

 

 

[sheikh chilli]

I disagree! Taim has his little faction of specially selected and trained Black Ashaman. There are plenty of others who haven't been deigned as "good enough" for his special training. When the Red AS make that little visit to him at the Black Tower, there's even some comment about that. There are definitely two factions at BT--Taim and Logain.

 

At Logain's house we see a half dozen dedicated handing out waiting for their orders. Not much of a faction, if you ask me.

 

"The silly Brown natteres on as she carried out her domestic tasks like a contented farmwife. 'I've learned a good deal already. Logain is the only full Asha'man to live here in this village. The others all live in Taim's 'palace'...'"

-- Prologue, Winter's Heart.

 

The meaning is clear -- Logain is the outsider. Taim is the M'Hael.

 

And in KOD Ch. 18: Logian warns Rand that Taim has 41 Asha'man in his tower within the tower. As well as 50 more Dedicated in his special classes. And that Taim is concentrating his strength in the tower and sending the others out on missions. Rand doesn't trust Logain any more than Taim so he doesn't seem to take the issue seriously.

 

Logain just gave Rand his chance to support him in making a move on Taim. Rand turned him down. If Logian tries anything its him who will be branded as a traitor and hunted down, not Taim. Taim is secure and can just keep recruiting until he decides to make his move. As it is now he could take almost 100 hand picked men with him and give the rest at the BT a choice, join or die.

 

 

logain may be the only ashaman amongst outside taims group but that does not mean all the ashaman are taim's fellows.

 

there are three factions. taims group. logains group and a faction in the middle.

[sheikh chilli]

Remember though that those events happened during the War of Power itself though, when the whole world was locked in the struggle for reality. And although that is also true now, only a few people really know what's going on. Back in the AoL everyone knew what was happening, everyone knew that the war was between the Light and Shadow. The Shadow was swarming everywhere, it was what we imagine war to be, full-scale combat. That hasn't happened yet, so drastic events like those that made it seem like the Light might fall during the AoL also haven't occurred yet.

 

Once the floodgates open, once Trolloc Armageddon comes storming out of the Blight and the new Dreadlords reveal themselves I think we'll see just how bad a shape the Light is in right now: fractured against each other with a severely wounded champion who happens to be their only hope for salvation. Right now the Light's struggle is personified in Rand, but once TG reaches full scale combat we should see it spread out to the rest of the Light's forces.

 

 

 

we shall see. but you have to admit. after 11 books there is still no struggle and no desperation amongst the forces of light. nothing so far that suggests the forces of light are on their knees.

 

absolutely nothing.

[sheikh chilli]

GRRM, despite his reputation, hasn't actually killed significantly more characters than RJ, but what he *has* done is to make us fear for Our Guys.

I call the WOT deaths, the 'Red-shirt effect'. Any Star Trek fan would know plenty of red-shirts died, but you never feared Kirk, Spock, etc. would die a final death. RJ is the same. Doesn't matter how many maidens near by die with Rand going 'Phew, that's close, add another name to the list', there isn't and never has been a real fear he would die. Now with Rand (and Mat and Perrin), that's ok, they are the 3 legs of the tripod and need to at least make it to the Last Battle.

 

The (final) death of one of the non-Ta'veren major characters, or at least a character very close to one of them would have ratched up the suspense. I would have really liked to have seen by around book 5 or 6 someone of real note die (and stay dead). I still hope to see in TGS - but don't expect to - at least a couple of Faile, Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene, Lan, Aviendha, Min or Gawyn die. Egwene sacrificing herself to save the Tower, now that'd be a neat twist. Or her having the choice of Gawyn living or her Amyrlin. Ditto for some of the other '2nd tier' characters - either something really dark to happen to them or one very close would definitely make it less 'their firing 70 machine guns at them, but somehow they all miss' type scenarios we keep getting.

 

 

 

 

thats a very very very good point. and one i have been saying all along. there is no sense of danger to our main characters. each time something bad happens, it happens to the maiden next door, or the minor ashaman accross the street or hundreds of unknown soldiers without a name.

 

 

the only character that has been killed from the light is moraine and it turns out she is not dead. you look at a series like dragonlance where the main characters are all in constant danger with some actually dying, that makes it a really remarkable one. WOT still lacks that.

[Braus]

The prison is physical, it can be broken down by physical means as lanfear showed and can be sealed up physically as well as LTT showed

 

 

 

You dont know that much about what kind of wall/prison/bubble or w/e stops the Dark one from gaining entrance to the WOT world.

How can you be certain that the AOL was the first time ever that the DO broke free? As far as i can understand it this time around, with Rand and co, the sealing will be perfect. So the next time the Dark one comes out will be when someone "drill" through that perfect seal, it wont evaporuate like the current flawed ones.

 

You got any proof that Lanfear truelly made a fresh opening to the Dark one, and not teared up an existing blockage?

[Braus]

Remember though that those events happened during the War of Power itself though, when the whole world was locked in the struggle for reality. And although that is also true now, only a few people really know what's going on. Back in the AoL everyone knew what was happening, everyone knew that the war was between the Light and Shadow. The Shadow was swarming everywhere, it was what we imagine war to be, full-scale combat. That hasn't happened yet, so drastic events like those that made it seem like the Light might fall during the AoL also haven't occurred yet.

 

Once the floodgates open, once Trolloc Armageddon comes storming out of the Blight and the new Dreadlords reveal themselves I think we'll see just how bad a shape the Light is in right now: fractured against each other with a severely wounded champion who happens to be their only hope for salvation. Right now the Light's struggle is personified in Rand, but once TG reaches full scale combat we should see it spread out to the rest of the Light's forces.

 

 

 

we shall see. but you have to admit. after 11 books there is still no struggle and no desperation amongst the forces of light. nothing so far that suggests the forces of light are on their knees.

 

absolutely nothing.

 

I truthfully say its the other way around mate. It has gone 2 years or so mate, you dont think what is occuring is big stuff? The three false dragons that was close togheter, before Rand, is nothing compared to what is occuring now.

Just think through for a second what kind of world WOT was back in eye of the world, compared to now 2 years later. And guys, its not fair as said to keep saying after 11 books, had been alot easier to overlook if it had been in pure wot time.

[sheikh chilli]

The prison is physical, it can be broken down by physical means as lanfear showed and can be sealed up physically as well as LTT showed

 

 

 

You dont know that much about what kind of wall/prison/bubble or w/e stops the Dark one from gaining entrance to the WOT world.

How can you be certain that the AOL was the first time ever that the DO broke free? As far as i can understand it this time around, with Rand and co, the sealing will be perfect. So the next time the Dark one comes out will be when someone "drill" through that perfect seal, it wont evaporuate like the current flawed ones.

 

You got any proof that Lanfear truelly made a fresh opening to the Dark one, and not teared up an existing blockage?

 

 

 

you have to read that book called robert jordan wheel of time. in there it is shown that during the aol there was no concept of dark one at all. he was completely seperate from the world. until ofcourse lanfear and co drilled through the bore. once that happened the darkone extended his reach to the outside world.

 

 

the hole lanfear made was small. certainly  not big enought to enable the dark one to break free. but the boring showed that the prison is physical in nature. therefore anyone with the right nous and strength can seal it or break it open completely.

 

 

[Braus]

GRRM, despite his reputation, hasn't actually killed significantly more characters than RJ, but what he *has* done is to make us fear for Our Guys.

I call the WOT deaths, the 'Red-shirt effect'. Any Star Trek fan would know plenty of red-shirts died, but you never feared Kirk, Spock, etc. would die a final death. RJ is the same. Doesn't matter how many maidens near by die with Rand going 'Phew, that's close, add another name to the list', there isn't and never has been a real fear he would die. Now with Rand (and Mat and Perrin), that's ok, they are the 3 legs of the tripod and need to at least make it to the Last Battle.

 

The (final) death of one of the non-Ta'veren major characters, or at least a character very close to one of them would have ratched up the suspense. I would have really liked to have seen by around book 5 or 6 someone of real note die (and stay dead). I still hope to see in TGS - but don't expect to - at least a couple of Faile, Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene, Lan, Aviendha, Min or Gawyn die. Egwene sacrificing herself to save the Tower, now that'd be a neat twist. Or her having the choice of Gawyn living or her Amyrlin. Ditto for some of the other '2nd tier' characters - either something really dark to happen to them or one very close would definitely make it less 'their firing 70 machine guns at them, but somehow they all miss' type scenarios we keep getting.

 

 

 

 

thats a very very very good point. and one i have been saying all along. there is no sense of danger to our main characters. each time something bad happens, it happens to the maiden next door, or the minor ashaman accross the street or hundreds of unknown soldiers without a name.

 

 

the only character that has been killed from the light is moraine and it turns out she is not dead. you look at a series like dragonlance where the main characters are all in constant danger with some actually dying, that makes it a really remarkable one. WOT still lacks that.

 

Once again, the main characters in the books are main characters to us, to us. Their are our eyes, our storytellers. They are important to us yes, but until they become a factor politically, you wont see serious attempt at hunting them down. The only way they get in danger is staying close to people like Rand, or putting themselves in it.

They havent really been under any real threat, they have been unimportant. Rand is the only one who always been under pressure. The others seek out danger, while Rand just gets it all thrown at him.

 

And once again, we are only talking about 2 years of time, 11 books that can be translated into 2 years. And if you wanna go even further, the first two books proberly takes up at least 50% or more of that time. Just think about all the traveling to shienar, then to Carhien, then to Tarabon, all the waiting, the time Rand spent in his camp after Falme etc.

 

And if we are gonna be even more fair, you should consider that pretty much none of our "tier2" chars, as someone said, has been in any real position of power or a real threat to the shadow, until very recently. Egwene got a power situation, and directly she was, unaware, manipulated by one of the forsaken who could had killed her anytime. Same thing with Elayne once she established herself in Caemlyn, only reason she wasnt "attacked" as said, was that she had so many kin women running around in the palace/seafolk winderfinders. Still they made attempts in infiltrating, by sending that scum who "saved" her life and fantasized about raping her. And as far as i remember, the day that Elayne herself attacked the black sister house, a party of new ones had arrived, who knows what would had happened if time had gone on.

 

[Braus]

The prison is physical, it can be broken down by physical means as lanfear showed and can be sealed up physically as well as LTT showed

 

 

 

You dont know that much about what kind of wall/prison/bubble or w/e stops the Dark one from gaining entrance to the WOT world.

How can you be certain that the AOL was the first time ever that the DO broke free? As far as i can understand it this time around, with Rand and co, the sealing will be perfect. So the next time the Dark one comes out will be when someone "drill" through that perfect seal, it wont evaporuate like the current flawed ones.

 

You got any proof that Lanfear truelly made a fresh opening to the Dark one, and not teared up an existing blockage?

 

 

 

you have to read that book called robert jordan wheel of time. in there it is shown that during the aol there was no concept of dark one at all. he was completely seperate from the world. until ofcourse lanfear and co drilled through the bore. once that happened the darkone extended his reach to the outside world.

 

 

the hole lanfear made was small. certainly  not big enought to enable the dark one to break free. but the boring showed that the prison is physical in nature. therefore anyone with the right nous and strength can seal it or break it open completely.

 

 

 

You shouldnt take that tone before thinking through your logics. Since as far as ive understood the whole Wheel Philoshopy is endless.

 

As said how do you actually know that lanfear drilled a fresh hole and not drilled through an existing blockage?

That the dark one isnt affecting the world is nothing, what kind of world do you think will happen once Rand and CO have sealed the prison again completly? Will the DO's influence be gone, and people slowly start to forget and the wheel turn on?

 

As said, you dont really know that it was a fresh opening that lanfear drilled through, the only reason it would had been would be if it was the first time ever that the DO gained influence over the world, the first turning of the wheel so to say(even if that might be illogical to something that is supposed to be infinitive both forward and backwards)

So the arguement that its possible to break the dark one free with raw physical force is flawed. You might be able to tear the "blockage" open, maybe directly after Rand has resealed it, or you gotta wait. But there is as far as ive read, nothing that prooves that you can actually widen the hole with raw physical force.

[havoc110]

"Us" as in the readers.  "Us" as in non-Randlanders who have other epic tales with which to compare WoT to.  To many arguments are stated as if the poster is a Rand-lander.  We're readers.  We read and evaluate stories.  I don't think the title thread was meant to be interpreted from a character in the story, but as A READER.  It really doesn't matter what an unnamed Two Rivers farmer feels about TG.  He probably doesn't know anything about TG anyway.  Why do people pursue this line of reason?

[Majsju]

And once again, we are only talking about 2 years of time, 11 books that can be translated into 2 years. And if you wanna go even further, the first two books proberly takes up at least 50% or more of that time. Just think about all the traveling to shienar, then to Carhien, then to Tarabon, all the waiting, the time Rand spent in his camp after Falme etc.

 

 

 

To be more specific, from the beginning of TEOTW to the end of KOD it is 2 years and 1-1½ month. The first two books covers 9 months, whereas the actual halfway mark comes in TDR.

[Muad Cheade]

There was post that I read when I was skimming through a topic (don't remember which).

 

Basically, the post said that we (in the current timeline) are in the "Collapse" of this Age. If you remember, the Collapse was the part of the Age of Legends when the Dark One's touch slowly influenced ever aspect of society and people began to become more corrupt and ally with the Shadow.

 

We're basically in that position. The world is being severely affected by the Dark One, chaos is increasingly spreading, society is in upheaval, and the Shadow is continuously corrupting the Light.

 

I think the aMoL books are going to be in fact, the War of Power where we actually see the sides being drawn and pitched battles occurring.

[Mr Ares]

However, I would dispute your point about how killing main characters is more popular these days.

Well, perhaps that's due to the increase in multi-volume epics these days. The more their are, the more common it will seem.

 

Boromir dying

Boromir was a second string character. Gandalf dying, you have a point, but not Boromir, really. Of course, Gandlaf the Grey died and came back as Gandalf the White. The body died, but not the spirit. I do admit that killing off major characters wasn't just something GRRM invented, it had been used before in fantasy literature, but it does seem to be a bit more common these days. Of course, as I said, that might just be borne of there being more series of this sort around than there was when RJ started writing. Of course, the main reason for not killing off your main character before the end is...that it's your main character. You still need them. If you were just going to kill off Frodo on the outskirts of Mordor and have Sam carry the ring, why not just make Sam the main character from the start? Of course, what Martin did was make the main character of his first book the main character of just his first book, not of his series. Like having a guy to carry EotW who dies, only for us to learn Rand is the Dragon! Rand then takes main character status from book 2 on.

 

they were theories

Exactly. They might be wrong. It might be that the Bore can be widened only so much without the Dragon to finish the job. Or it might simply be that it is easier if he is there, so if you can convert him it makes sense to try.

 

but you have to admit. after 11 books there is still no struggle and no desperation amongst the forces of light.

We have to admit nothing of the sort. We see things getting worse throughout the series.

[Ashaman DeRouge]

I think everyone is missing the point.

 

The real Last Battle is being fought in this thread, and are the "DO Haters" the underdogs, or the "DO is kickin' it" ensemble?

 

 

:P

 

Its subjective dudes. I don't like Twilight, but yet it sells millions, so evidently SOMEONE out there is getting the point that I am missing. Same goes here.

[havoc110]

 

but you have to admit. after 11 books there is still no struggle and no desperation amongst the forces of light.

We have to admit nothing of the sort. We see things getting worse throughout the series.

 

We have to admit that there is neither struggle nor desperation.

[Braus]

 

but you have to admit. after 11 books there is still no struggle and no desperation amongst the forces of light.

We have to admit nothing of the sort. We see things getting worse throughout the series.

 

We have to admit that there is neither struggle nor desperation.

 

Dont understand it, but you guys got a whole other kind of experience from these books. I wouldnt admit what you are saying, far from it.

[Seven of Nine]

Neither struggle nor desperation? People are starving, when they can get food it goes bad incredibly quickly, they see dead people walking around, etc. etc. Stories about the Forsaken used to scare children now include real sightings. Wars and rumors of wars.

 

Hmmmm . . . I must be reading a different series than some of you.

 

The people on the side of the Light aren't just the heroes/main characters.