The DO will be the underdog in Tarmon Gai'don?

[Braus]

 

 

And football doesn't have Quarterbacks, you must be thinking of American Football, which isn't football at all. Football is the game the entire rest of the world calls football.

 

 

Ok sorry cant stay out any longer :) This is the best thing said this far in this thread.

[havoc110]

 

Say you're watching a football game and the quarterback gets sacked.

Let's not. Let's say you're watching a game, but you have no idea what the rules are. Someone tells you that one team is winning, but you claim that makes no sene, even though you don't understand the game and so are in no position to judge. And football doesn't have Quarterbacks, you must be thinking of American Football, which isn't football at all. Football is the game the entire rest of the world calls football.

 

 

For someone who talks like an expert in all issues, here on sports, on another thread what does and does not constitute rape, you seem very set in your ignorance of the issue of the DO's motives and goals, as if that were some type of asset.  I don't need more convincing, I believe you.

 

As for someone telling me that one team is winning, that argument is very clear to me.  If, say, you lived in Randland and your crops didn't grow, your meat was rotten, and your bread was weevil infested, then yes, you're miserable, and more than likely you would admit, if polled, that Dark is winning.  Here, however is where you and others fail to see the fallacy.  From a reader's perspective, events in the background do not hold equal weight compared with events in the foreground.  RJ's "dumb evil" blog post implies that they are equal (in the second paragraph), and some of you clearly believe him; but sadly, neither RJ's saying so nor you repeating it ad nauseam makes it true.  Probably you, like RJ, can lecture me about the internal workings of the Nazis and the Soviet Empire, but I submit that referencing historical obscurities to defend the depth of the good vs. evil struggle in WoT is actually making the critics' case for them.

 

And since I have to belabor another point which I feel should be obvious, there aren't any other judges but us.  That is to say, readers.  There's authors and there's readers.  One writes, the others read, and interpret, and judge.  Others came up with the same criticism before me, enough apparently for RJ to rant about it in his blog.  But to say I'm in no position to judge indicates you don't comprehend how the whole author/reader dynamic works.  If not me, or you, then who?

 

For those that can't always tell, I'm a big fan of WoT and of RJ.  I was disappointed in the "dumb evil" blog post.  I feel that the criticism was and remains valid.  To believe that every word in the story is perfect as it sits is silly adulation.  Which is, for an RJ apologist, par for the course.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

Yeah, we readers know a great deal more than the characters in the story. We know that the Light will win this Last Battle, for instance. I still enjoy the books. As I mentioned earlier, I'm one of those with the opinion that the Light's forces will face major obstacles (they aren't in such a great position, IMO). But everybody are entitled to their own view on the matter. :)

 

From RJ's blog:

(this has probably already been quoted in this thread)

The Forsaken are a group of power hungry people who don’t like one another and vie with one another for power as much as they vie with the forces of the Light.  Much like the internal politicking in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union.  But look at the situation in the world as it actually stands, from the White Tower divided to crop failures caused by a too-long winter and a too-long summer and people fleeing their farms because the Dragon Reborn has broken all bonds, meaning still less food, and that spoiling at a fearsome rate, from chaos in Arad Doman to a large part of the Borderland armies out of position, from the arrival of the Seanchan focusing too many eyes on them instead of the Shadow to the strongest single nation, Andor, riven by civil war in all but name and Tear split by open warfare, from….  Well, take your pick.  There are lots more to chose from. Take a step back and look at what the forces of the Shadow have wrought.  The world and the forces of the Light are in bad shape.  At this point, boys and girls, the Shadow is winning.  There are glimmers of hope, but only glimmers, and they MUST pay off for the Light to win.  All the Shadow needs for victory is for matters to keep on as they have been going thus far and one or two of those glimmers to fade or be extinguished.  The forces of the Light are on the ropes, and they don’t even know everything the Dark One has up his sleeve.

 

 

 

[Fel]

Let's just start with a couple of crucial (an by crucial meaning climactic end-of-book scenes) "plays":

The "FoH Trap": Lanfear/Graendal/Sammy/Rahvin: Result Lanfear pushed into Finnland, Rahvin dead.  Clearly a Light victory, clearly major defeat for Dark.

The Cleansing:  Saidin clean, Osan'gar dead.  Again, major Light victory.

BA capture of Elayne:  Elayne freed, BA dead or captured.  Light Victory.

Sammy trap of Rand at SL:  Sammy dead.

Attack at the Eye of the World:  2 chosen dead (Ah maybe that's it, the key to dark victory is destroy the Green Man, then again, I think not).

 

I will fully grant that the Forsaken have been a cast of clowns that hardly inspire fear in me as a reader.  Their knowledge from the age of legends and their legendary evil has been almost comically useless.  I wish they were all more fearsome - like Lanfear when she was PO'ed on the docks and brushed aside everyone and everything in her path, including all the chanellers.  But, alas, they are all incompetent boobs.

 

I *do* hold out hope that the Dark One seems to have some other plan that I am not understanding.      He seems to want to cause major chaos to disrupt the normal flow of the world and, as a result, cause ....something to happen.  In that vein, the FOH was a big deal of a loss because it caused rand to learn, the cleansing was a big hit against him, I don't think he gives a rat's tail about elayne at all, sammy getting killed seems like a draw for him in that he preferred rand who could cause more chaos, and the eye of the world was WAY too early for the DO to be involved directly.

 

There are some other things going on for which there is no explanation.  Why are the seals failing?  How is the DO getting stronger holds on the world?  why is Saidar seeming to fail? etc.  In all of these, the light is losing, but we have no idea how or why.  That is why I think the DO has some other plan.

 

In your football analogy, the quarterback was sacked and, as a result, the game goes to overtime.  But, the DO makes all his money selling beer, so he is overjoyed that his team does not "win" because it means more profit for him. 

 

He is playing a different game than the others (at least I hope so).

[Charlz Guybon]

I can only assume (and this may be incorrect, I realize) that AT LEAST SOME, if perhaps not all of the Forsaken are acting on what they beileve to be the DO's playbook.  It is possible that it is 100% misdirection, but I think that is unlikely.

 

They are acting on what they believe to be the DO's playbook, but all of them except Ishy are mistaken in what they believe that to be.

 

The Dark One is obviously winning because reality is beginging to unravel and Rand and co have no idea how to stop it. All the Forsaken can die and it doesn't change this basic fact.

 

Just look at the 3 ripples in KOD, surely that was an effect of the last 3 seals breaking.

[Mr. Micawber]

I can only assume (and this may be incorrect, I realize) that AT LEAST SOME, if perhaps not all of the Forsaken are acting on what they beileve to be the DO's playbook.  It is possible that it is 100% misdirection, but I think that is unlikely.

 

They are acting on what they believe to be the DO's playbook, but all of them except Ishy are mistaken in what they believe that to be.

 

The Dark One is obviously winning because reality is beginging to unravel and Rand and co have no idea how to stop it. All the Forsaken can die and it doesn't change this basic fact.

 

Just look at the 3 ripples in KOD, surely that was an effect of the last 3 seals breaking.

 

I can't wait for one of them (obviously, not Elan Morin) to figure this out and demonstrate that jazz about no matter how long you walk in the Shadow you can go back to the Light is true.

 

I absolutely believe that Graendal would turn sides when she realizes that her pleasures would vanish into thin air as soon as the Big Guy wins.

[Braus]

 

Im beyond lecturing you or Shiek chilli, or well explaining my point of view. I cant say you are wrong, or that im right, i believe you guys are very very wrong though. In a discussion you bring your points to the table, while someone else brings others and in the end you agree on whats correct and see the logics, you dont just stubbornly stick to your points and ignores anything put up against them. There is enough materials in this thread already to make a post that would stretch a whole page or two of [ /quote] /correction [ /quote] spamm.

You guys arent having a discussion going on, this thread isnt discussion friendly already experienced that, its just blunt.

[havoc110]

 

Im beyond lecturing you or Shiek chilli, or well explaining my point of view. I cant say you are wrong, or that im right, i believe you guys are very very wrong though. In a discussion you bring your points to the table, while someone else brings others and in the end you agree on whats correct and see the logics, you dont just stubbornly stick to your points and ignores anything put up against them. There is enough materials in this thread already to make a post that would stretch a whole page or two of [ /quote] /correction [ /quote] spamm.

You guys arent having a discussion going on, this thread isnt discussion friendly already experienced that, its just blunt.

 

I have some discussion, really.  The only thing I seem to get in reply are copy/pastes from RJ's blog.

 

How about this, whatever any of us feel about whether dark is winning or losing at the end of KOD, Dark is probably going to be winning a WHOLE LOT MORE by the end of ToM.  For those that are unaware of why this should be, well hopefully ignorance is bliss.  If, according to the orig. poster, you roll out TG with the current orders of battle, the case for Light being the underdog is marginal at best.  (For those that want to copy/paste RJ's blog in response to this because it makes them feel better, go ahead).  So, if we can manage to get some buy in on the scales tipping to dark in TGS and ToM, then the question is "Why now?"  There's been 13 books to build up the Dark side, why save it primarily for the 3rd to last and penultimate volumes?

 

As far as the argument that we can't speculate about what the DO's motives or goals might be, when all these boards are for are reader's speculations, that concept remains priceless to me.  My assumption would be that to speculate along these lines opens up all sorts of fears about the depth of the struggle we are following, questions that remain better unanswered for some. 

 

As for what the DO is doing, most likely he is (at minimum) trying to escape the bore.  Keeping Rand alive suggests that only Rand (or LTT or a combo of Rand/LTT) can open the bore.  As to the Forsaken, the DO doesn't necessarily have to be reliant on them, because he had their help in the last age and where'd that get him?  Stuck in the bore.  What I don't get is that if he had 13 Forsaken, and he ended up in the bore, then what logic would lead him to believe that as many as 12 less Forsaken will get him a better result?  Possibly he has picked only a few of the previous age Forsaken to keep (treating some previous age Forsaken as discards/throwaways) and will elevate some prevalent current age DFs, but Taim seems to be the only one to fit this description.  And the Nae'blis title?  Does it come with special Dark powers?  If so, then what would have prevented having 13 Nae'blis's as opposed to just one?  And how does Dark fighting Dark actually help the Dark?

[sheikh chilli]

Let's just start with a couple of crucial (an by crucial meaning climactic end-of-book scenes) "plays":

The "FoH Trap": Lanfear/Graendal/Sammy/Rahvin: Result Lanfear pushed into Finnland, Rahvin dead.  Clearly a Light victory, clearly major defeat for Dark.

The Cleansing:  Saidin clean, Osan'gar dead.  Again, major Light victory.

BA capture of Elayne:  Elayne freed, BA dead or captured.  Light Victory.

Sammy trap of Rand at SL:  Sammy dead.

Attack at the Eye of the World:  2 chosen dead (Ah maybe that's it, the key to dark victory is destroy the Green Man, then again, I think not).

 

I will fully grant that the Forsaken have been a cast of clowns that hardly inspire fear in me as a reader.  Their knowledge from the age of legends and their legendary evil has been almost comically useless.  I wish they were all more fearsome - like Lanfear when she was PO'ed on the docks and brushed aside everyone and everything in her path, including all the chanellers.  But, alas, they are all incompetent boobs.

 

 

 

the forsaken are merely an extension of their master. if the master is clueless then is it any suprise to see such incompetent servants. I love robert jordan and i respect his views but i diasgree with him when he says the forces of light are under ropes.

 

 

all i see is one bumbling moment from the shadow after another. I mean when was the last time you have seen a massive pawnage move from the shadow? something that made you go GOD DAMN! RESPECT!! Something that made you take pause for a second.

 

 

In 11 books, the only time i felt a great deal of danger for our characters was in the first 4 books. And that's something since the  series spans 11 books. That's 7 books where i felt not one ounce of concern because i knew the shadow would trip over  somewhere somehow. I guess reading pages of pages of braid tugging, sniffing, spankings, snorting and skirt smoothing alters your thinking abit

 

Let's hope TGS and the other 2 books somehow paints the picture that robert jordan was talking about in his blog

[sheikh chilli]

so what does everyone think right now? after the gathering storm is the dark one a badass or still the under dog?

 

mods can you move to this thread to the spolier forums?

[Mr Ares]

He wasn't the underdog before TGS. We have no reason to think He is now.

[Muad Cheade]

so what does everyone think right now? after the gathering storm is the dark one a badass or still the under dog?

 

mods can you move to this thread to the spolier forums?

 

By the end of TGS, I was thinking that the Light would really need a knockout punch to win just like RJ said.

 

[sheikh chilli]

so what does everyone think right now? after the gathering storm is the dark one a badass or still the under dog?

 

mods can you move to this thread to the spolier forums?

 

By the end of TGS, I was thinking that the Light would really need a knockout punch to win just like RJ said.

 

 

 

really?

 

after the last 2 chapters i would think it's the other way around.

[Muad Cheade]

I don't think we can continue this conversation along this path as we're heading towards spoiler territory.

 

But no, while the last two chapters were steps in the right direction, the status quo still remained.

[sheikh chilli]

I suggest muad to read those final two chapters and tell me if nothing has changed since KOD.

[Ashamandragoran]

Sheikh, you really don't need to call anyone dumb to make a point. You're either right or wrong, but calling other people dumb when they don't agree with you is not the way to go

 

if I were you, I'd reread some of TGS. I can't go into detail because it is all spoilers, but I think there are some key points there regarding your discussion

[Muad Cheade]

*original attack deleted*

 

I suggest muad to read those final two chapters and tell me if nothing has changed since KOD.

 

You are absolutely right, sheikh chili. I decided to read the entire book except for the last two chapters because I decided to save them until the day before ToM is released.

 

Anyways. This topic is getting into spoiler territory but yes, I still believe nothing has changed in relation to the Dark One winning the war currently. Glad to know you support me having my own thoughts.

 

Back to the topic at hand, I'm thinking that the Borderlands will fall fairly soon depending on the success of Rand because to be honest they are very much undefended in that area.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Personally, I think it's a mistake to dismiss the DO as an underdog, given the sheer scope of his arsenal. There's all sorts of hell to unleash at the Last Battle, including:

 

~ Machin Shin and Mashadar - Death on armies.

~ The other five Gholam - Death on channelers. Untouchable unless they figure out Mat's medallion. Yeah, it's only speculation that the DO has access to em

 

That's enough to beat some serious Lighty butt, right there.

 

~ Famine, etc have already been mentioned.

 

~ Something that hasn't been discussed (afaik) is the full scale of the "Bubbles of Evil" analogy. What happens when something begins to surface from water? Yeah. "Waves of Evil"

 

~ Worms. From the hype they've been given, they sounds as if they deserve a category all their own.

 

~ Padan Fain. If Galad doesn't have the Whitecloaks, I bet PF will.

 

~ Shadowspawn, DFs, Dreads and Forsaken seem small fry compared to all that.

 

 

 

 

[Braus]

*original attack deleted*

 

I suggest muad to read those final two chapters and tell me if nothing has changed since KOD.

 

The only change is that Rand didnt go all the way across teh edge, he didnt actually become a kinslayer which he was extremly close to becoming, with everything inbetween(becoming emotionally blunt, killing people for the slightest excuse or none at all)

What does this change mean? It means Rand might, or might not, when it comes to sanity and healthy moral thinking be back on track. But he is nowhere nearer his goals. If anything, the last few books he has again and again and again made people doubt him/suspect him for being insane/be afraid of him in a bad way. I mean when it comes to the "duel" between Shaitan and Rand, i cant see how Rand getting his morals back have helped him in anyway, he might aswell be like he was before when he does the duel. When it comes to Rand being a Leader, its positive that he got his morals back, but as said he got alot of convincing to do. Especially if he gotten another one of those "dont kill women" block, people might actually start to loose "respect" for him and try and manipulate him again, that is more. Its true that Cadsuane never stopped, but people like her at least havent dared for the latest books to put any real force behind the manipulation, at least not if there was a risk to get caught.

 

The last two chapters changed nothing when it comes to how the scales are right now. Rand still got alot of work to do, and alot of work he has done lately to undo. The latest two years almost whole Randland have got a taste of war, and thats hardly all. Most people are hard pressed, logically most of them should be dead by now if you just think about the wars, the spoilage, the crops etc. Id say its illogical that most of them arent.

[Crael123]

one word. no.