Why doesn't anyone care that the true source has been cleansed?

[Arkelias]

Cleansing the source is arguably the biggest moment in the WoT to date.  It's something no one believed possible, yet Rand managed to pull it off.  After he's done so we are shown a brief scene with the Asha'man who helped defend Rand during the attack at Shadar Logoth.  They are ecstatic that the source has been cleansed.

 

After that point the fact is only brought up a few more times.  When it is those who bring it up mostly do so to scoff and say its not possible.  The one person who can channel I remember discussing it was Logain, and while he acknowledged that it was clean he didn't give credit to Rand.  He gave it to the creator.  I'd have expected commentary by the forsaken and many more of the Asha'man like Grady and Neald.

 

Why doesn't anyone A) believe its clean and B) believe Rand did it?  I would have expected every Asha'man and every Aes Sedai bonded to or by an Asha'man to be in awe of this accomplishment.  Yet it feels almost like a minor point in the story.

 

Does anyone else feel the same?  Are there parts of the series I'm not remembering where they do discuss how the source was cleansed?  I'd love to hear people's take on this.

[WWWwombat]

Well CoT didn't have anything about it (We don't use that word here. --Kathana CoT), and I don't remember too much Asha'man stuff from KoD.  I think what happened is that the Asha'man who weren't there have a hard time believing a mortal could cleanse the Source.  Rand needs to start working the PR machine and rein the damn Asha'man back in while he's at it.  Either way, what Rand did is absolutely epic.  Also, I don't think too many of the Aes Sedai even know about it yet.  Maybe Rand will get his due yet.  I don't think he cares too much what people think about him though, which is admittedly badass but also impractical.

[Rand Skywalker]

I thought there was SO MUCH potential with cleansed Saidin that hopefully will be realized 2 books late.  While waiting for Cot I was entirely expecting the Aes Sedai to basically say: "Oh crap, now men (who we've oppressed for millenia) have a legitimate right to weild our power! How are we going to A) discredit them and hold onto our authority or B) give in and seek some kind of balance?"  I know some will say that there are Aes Sedai sort of doing that with the whole "bonding Ashamen" thing, but that seems more like slavery to me, at least in the way that lots of Aes Sedai want.

[mb]

Scoffing it, I do not see that.  The Aes Sedia that it was discussed to seem to become convinced of saidin being clean.

About Rand's involvement in the cleansing, those who participated in it seem to believe that it was him.

Not caring about the fact, I do not see that either.  Most who know that saidin is clean seem to be at awe about it.

 

Generally, people seem to be quite about things that are planned (and are done) privately.  

 

[Arkelias]

It sounds like you guys both had the same expectations I did.  I thought it would be abundantly clear Rand had done it just by the facts gathered.  Anyone remember the Underpants Gnomes episode from Southpark?

 

Stage 1- More power than has ever been used for any reason is channeled for over a day.  No one knows the reason why or who did it.

 

Stage 2- ???

 

Stage 3- The Source has been cleansed.

 

As a male channeler if the super power source suddenly winked out after a day of continuous use, and at exactly that instant I noticed the source was suddenly clean wouldn't I put two and two together? 

 

From an Asha'man's point of view who would cleanse the true source?  It can't be the forsaken.  So it must be someone with a powerful Sa'Angreal.  Most of them haven't heard of the Choden Kal, but they do know Rand has Callandor.  My first assumption would be that the Dragon had somehow cleansed it.

 

For the female Aes Sedai it would be trickier.  They've heard from some of their number who've bonded Asha'man that its clean.  Once they know that they'd have access to the same facts.  They were just as aware of the MASSIVE channeling and the fact that it ceased suddenly.  If they hear the source was cleansed a few days later (which they did) I'd think they'd at least consider the possibility that Rand had cleansed the source.

[Arkelias]

Scoffing it, I do not see that.  The Aes Sedia that it was discussed to seem to become convinced of saidin being clean.

About Rand's involvement in the cleansing, those who participated in it seem to believe that it was him.

Not caring about the fact, I do not see that either.  Most who know that saidin is clean seem to be at awe about it.

 

Generally, people seem to be quite about things that are planned (and are done) privately.  

 

 

I guess where I'm going with this is that if the Aes Sedai believed the True Source was clean wouldn't that be incredibly major news that needed to be brought to both the Salidar faction and the White Tower itself?  That might even halt their little war while they reeled from the implications.

 

Suddenly men are no longer a threat, and might be integreated into the White Tower as equals just like in the Age of Legends.  Instead, I kind of got that it was a minor issue.  When they learn of it, it doesn't really change their immediate goals.  They keep on as before and that surprises me.

[WWWwombat]

Scoffing it, I do not see that.  The Aes Sedia that it was discussed to seem to become convinced of saidin being clean.

About Rand's involvement in the cleansing, those who participated in it seem to believe that it was him.

Not caring about the fact, I do not see that either.  Most who know that saidin is clean seem to be at awe about it.

 

Generally, people seem to be quite about things that are planned (and are done) privately.  

 

 

I guess where I'm going with this is that if the Aes Sedai believed the True Source was clean wouldn't that be incredibly major news that needed to be brought to both the Salidar faction and the White Tower itself?  That might even halt their little war while they reeled from the implications.

 

Suddenly men are no longer a threat, and might be integreated into the White Tower as equals just like in the Age of Legends.  Instead, I kind of got that it was a minor issue.  When they learn of it, it doesn't really change their immediate goals.  They keep on as before and that surprises me.

 

I don't remember the Tower learning of the cleansing and I'm not sure how many in Salidar actually believe saidin is clean.  It took quite some time for even the Aes Sedai who were with Rand to believe saidin was clean.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

i get the feeling that the aes sedai want to minimize the exposure that saidin is clean.

 

as yet, there are a couple hundred asha'man running around, some less than sane, and the aes sedai dont know how to take that. add that with the source being clean again, and now all of a sudden they have no justifiable reason to eliminate or control the men. as a matter of fact, the world needs them to help fight the last battle.

 

also, i think the biggest reason to keep it hush hush is that the women are loathe to give up being the single group which meddles in everyone in the worlds business and does so with impunity. the black tower shows no interest in the world politically, yet the white tower has involved itself for centuries. it would be tough for any woman (some of the ones i know, at least, and the way the aes sedai are described, as alpha personalities) to give up that power which was theirs and theirs alone, especially with the way male channelers were historically treated. now they are going to have to deal with them on an everyday basis, with the bonding, etc, and possibly integrate them into their society? its a culture shock.

[JenniferL]

How on earth are they supposed to prove to the Aes Sedai it's clean? Would you take the word of madman?

[WWWwombat]

How on earth are they supposed to prove to the Aes Sedai it's clean? Would you take the word of madman?

 

Linking with Asha'man warders seemed to work for those with Rand.

[dholm]

How many Aes Sedai would link with madmen?

 

It'll get out eventually, but it'll take a while.

[JenniferL]

"Hello Miss Aes Sedai. Would you mind terribly giving up your ability to channel to defend yourself for a minute so that I can prove to you that I'm not hallucinating? I promise this won't end badly."

[Arkelias]

Linking with Asha'man warders seemed to work for those with Rand.

 

I was just about to say that.  Any link should prove that, although I still expect a lot of skeptics.  I'm not saying that the Aes Sedai will accept it quickly, but the Asha'man certainly would.

 

Let's take Taim for example.  Obviously he's a darkfriend, this is proved by his comment at the end of KoD.  Wouldn't it scare him to realize Rand cleansed the true source?  No one thought he could, and if he did that maybe he can beat the dark one himself.  If he can it means Taim picked the wrong side.  I'd have loved to see something from his perspective or one of his lackeys showing a reaction to this.

 

Getting back to the Aes Sedai whether they accept that the source is clean or not it should lead to a massive firestorm of debate at the very least.  Its an issue of incredible importantance especially in regards to Tarmon Gaidon and working together.

 

"Hello Miss Aes Sedai. Would you mind terribly giving up your ability to channel to defend yourself for a minute so that I can prove to you that I'm not hallucinating? I promise this won't end badly."

 

Admittedly this is a hard sell, but Aes Sedai from both Salidar and the WT have already decided to bond Asha'man.  They've agreed to this while believing the source is still tainted, and that these men will go mad.

 

If they are willing to do that, is it much of a further stretch to assume they'd test a claim that the source was clean?  I have to imagine most of them would be willing to test it.  Especially if you have a few Asha'man come to the Aes Sedai. 

 

How scary is that one potential madman surrounded by more than 13 Aes Sedai?  They can shield him in a heartbeat if he does anything spivey.

[Locke]

I was kinda surprised and disappointed at the lack of impact and influence cleansing Saidin had.  I mean, this is such an important event. You'd think there'd be more reaction than a) Oh, wow that's nice. Moving on then...., b) disbelief, c) not knowing, or d) Saidin clean is old hat.  Ah well, maybe that will change in the next one. Have to wait and see

[JenniferL]

 

 

"Hello Miss Aes Sedai. Would you mind terribly giving up your ability to channel to defend yourself for a minute so that I can prove to you that I'm not hallucinating? I promise this won't end badly."

 

Admittedly this is a hard sell, but Aes Sedai from both Salidar and the WT have already decided to bond Asha'man.  They've agreed to this while believing the source is still tainted, and that these men will go mad.

 

If they are willing to do that, is it much of a further stretch to assume they'd test a claim that the source was clean?  I have to imagine most of them would be willing to test it.  Especially if you have a few Asha'man come to the Aes Sedai. 

 

How scary is that one potential madman surrounded by more than 13 Aes Sedai?  They can shield him in a heartbeat if he does anything spivey.

 

An excellent point. It is possible for the Aes Sedai to experience it for themselves and some of them have. However, we're also bumping up against 3000 years of "The Aes Sedai know everything about everything". And they all "know" that its impossible to cleanse saidin. Same reason why the Wise Ones have so much trouble meeting with the sisters in T'A'R. The Aes Sedai simply refuse to admit there is something they don't know. Assuming everyone survives the Last Battle, there will be plenty of time for them to figure out otherwise.

[Arkelias]

Good point!  Plus, if they've never felt Saidin before then they can't compare the tainted version to the non-tainted.  Only those few Aes Sedai who linked before and after will be aware of the change.

[Balefire to da face!]

You bring up another sticking point I have with the latter books Arkelias. It also really bugged me that probably the coolest and most signifigant moment in the last half of the series was virtually swept under the rug.

 

And it's not really a matter of what we saw being wrong. The point that 3000 years of prejudice is hard to overcome is a very strong one. The problem is in how very, very, very little the author himself dealt with the situation at all. Conspicuous and infuriating by it's absense, ya might say.

 

It goes back to what we were talking about. About waiting years for nothing to happen. We read Winter's Heart and it's like, one of the most epic moments in the series. It was one of those moments that you know legends will be told about and Jordan actually gave us the pleasure of watching it happen.

 

We wait years to see what kind of fallout is going to happen because of it. We get CoT, and virtually nothing. It's not that the topic has been handled badly really, it's that it hasn't been handled at all. While I don't share your view of Rand suffering and how it's made him useless, I do agree that too often Rand seems to choose to do nothing, when he could put a little effort and gain much. Taim has a deathgripe on the Black Tower right now. Easily one of, if not the, most important potential weapon for Rand when TG roles around. Even without Logain pleading with Rand that something has to be done Rand should know he needs to keep a tight reign on that place. When is the last time he visited? Why hasn't he announced to the entirety of the Black Tower that the Dragon Reborn has cleansed saidin?

 

Most of the Ashaman have never even met Rand. It could earn him the devout loyalty of Ashaman not directly under Taim's control, through gratitude and/or pure awe. It could strike fear into the hearts of any Ashaman who are in league with Taim. So why does Rand not capitalize on that?

[redbj]

whilst i agree it was understated, id always thought it was done so on purpose(understated) to cause the effect that TG is coming.

 

im trying to say...people would once have been in awe...now its just another odditie on the way to TG.

 

its one of Jordans better suttleties for me.

 

That coupled with the fact that news would be just confused over such a thing....(what 50 odd LOYAL to Ashaman and not to be trusted aes sedia say it so).

 

i would have loved for a POV from Taim any forsaken and logain on it though.

[Thorn]

Well, the main people who's opinion we'd hope would change would be the Red Ajah, and they're all in the Tower under Elaida, with no contact with Rand or his forces; they don't know yet and wouldn't believe if they were told. Basically their whole raison d'etre just got destroyed -- it's doubtful they'd accept it as true even if confronted directly (as in the case of the few that have warders or are bonded).

 

The Asha'man should care a lot but we haven't seen much from their viewpoint.

 

The "rebel" Aes Sedai probably do care, but there aren't any reds among them, so  they haven't really been forced to confront the issue yet.

 

Everyone else in the world is lucky if they even understand that men and women channel different parts of the One Power.

 

[Swigaro]

Remember Cadsuane's conversation with Merise(?) in CoT.  Merise was at the clensing, had linked with Narishma before and after the Cleansing, and still told Cadsuane something to the effect of "He says the source is cleansed, but how can we know for sure, anything could be hiding in there. If a sister who was there and had experience with the sensation of pre and post tainted Saidin isn't convinced, how is your average Red sister ever going to believe it.  Time is the only thing that will convince anyone.  100 years in the future when no Asha'man has gone insane since before the Cleansing, assuming anyone can still channel, maybe they will start to believe.  So much of Aes Sedai athourity is tied up in needing to protect the world from male channelers.  It is hardwired into them.  Many may never believe...

[Arkelias]

Balefire you summed up some of my feelings better than I could myself.

 

You bring up another sticking point I have with the latter books Arkelias. It also really bugged me that probably the coolest and most signifigant moment in the last half of the series was virtually swept under the rug.

 

I think this is what I was trying to get across.  It's not that the Aes Sedai should even be convinced, but more that the debate should have been an integral part of CoT and even KoD in my opinion.  Instead it was barely mentioned.

 

Conspicuous and infuriating by it's absense, ya might say

 

This was very well said, Balefire.

 

 

Taim has a deathgripe on the Black Tower right now. Easily one of, if not the, most important potential weapon for Rand when TG roles around. Even without Logain pleading with Rand that something has to be done Rand should know he needs to keep a tight reign on that place. When is the last time he visited? Why hasn't he announced to the entirety of the Black Tower that the Dragon Reborn has cleansed saidin?

 

At last someone who agrees!  Male channelers are even more powerful for Rand than the Aiel.  Why wouldn't you show up at the Black Tower right after you cleansed Saidin?  If you announced that to every Asha'man I guarantee that would have won the loyalty of many of them.

 

"I have cleaned the true source.  I have made it safe for you to use.  I have removed the insanity that would have claimed us all." Yeah I'm thinking Rand would have swayed some of Taim's faction, and scared the crap out of the M'hael at the same time.

 

Most of the Ashaman have never even met Rand. It could earn him the devout loyalty of Ashaman not directly under Taim's control, through gratitude and/or pure awe. It could strike fear into the hearts of any Ashaman who are in league with Taim. So why does Rand not capitalize on that?

 

We're given a reason, but to me the reason is inadequate.  Granted, Min is supposed to be pretty damn cute.  But you'd think he could pull himself out of bed long enough to plan a day trip to the Black Tower.

 

It boggles me that this wasn't addressed by Jordan, because these could have been some of the best scenes in the WoT.  Instead of focusing on all the NPCs in the White Tower we could have seen the split in the Black Tower with some going to Taim and some going to Rand and Logain. 

 

I think this would have made for AWESOME reading and could have been my favorite part of the series.  Instead Rand continues to ignore the problem.  This is an especially big issue, because the reader has known Taim was a darkfriend (or strongly suspected) since his first introduction when he was assigned to the Farm.  We knew back then what he would become, but Rand has remained stubbornly blind the entire time.

 

It makes him look like a dork, and one who can't keep it in his pants long enough to deal with a major problem =(

 

 

[Elgee]

Balefire you summed up some of my feelings better than I could myself.

 

You bring up another sticking point I have with the latter books Arkelias. It also really bugged me that probably the coolest and most signifigant moment in the last half of the series was virtually swept under the rug.

 

I think this is what I was trying to get across.  It's not that the Aes Sedai should even be convinced, but more that the debate should have been an integral part of CoT and even KoD in my opinion.  Instead it was barely mentioned.

 

 

Maybe now that the Reds have bonded some Asha'man, this matter will finally get some attention?

 

It would be kind of ironic if the Reds are the ones who have to convince the other Sisters that the men are now safe  ;D

[Arkelias]

Now THAT would make for some great reading Elgee!  Though I'm thinking they got more than they bargained for with Taim.  I see him being more in control, especially after that 'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule' comment at the end.

 

I suspect the red sisters will become eeevil under the thumb of Taim.  We'll see on October 27th I hope!

[Elgee]

I still hold to the theory that the Reds bonded Asha'man who are NOT in Taim's faction. I hope so, anyway ... lol

[Arkelias]

The last scene in KoD has Taim agreeing to let them bond Ashaman, and him saying 'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule'.  Hopefully, for their sake, they are allowed to pick ones outside of his faction and not end up bonded or taken before a circle of 13 Myrrdraal.