Set the horde loose

[Arkelias]

Sure thing!  I didn't realize that was an issue =)

[Aiemond]

  There is no internet in the Wheel of Time.  If the shadow conquered the borderlands it wouldn't be anything but another rumor for many, many months.  By the time people realized the borderlands had been wiped out the shadow could withdraw and flood the south with those same trollocs using gateways.

 

But their are carrier pigions, trading vessels, and if all else fails, riders on horseback.  They might be able to take out the borderlands before reinforcements arive, but the other nations would hear about it long before the Trollocs arive at their door. All the nations whould unite (hypothetically), possibly behind Rand.  Or Rand would just kill all the trollocs with the CK. 

 

Either way, shadow loses.  I'm thinking they are either waiting for:

a) Rand to go completely stark raving mad to the point where he is unable to do anything

b) Someone is able to steal/destroy the CK access key

c) The dark one breaks loose and deals with Rand personally...

 

Given how long it took other nations to find out about Rand taking Tear, Illian and Andor and how twisted the rumors still are I'd tend to doubt they'd find out quickly.  They have carrier pigeons now and no one knows what's really going on.  Even Elayne is in the dark about events in most places. 

 

Think about how little people actually know about the extent of the Seanchan invasion, and how many people think its just a rumor.  Plus, in the lands of the south where trollocs are still a myth do you really think they're going to believe that a flood of them is wiping out the borderlands? 

 

If they move them through the ways or a gateway (assuming they can do that) they'll arrive long before a carrier pigeon.  Which means first rumors would arrive not long after the army itself.  Since no one would know when and where they were going to hit every nation would want to leave its army at home for fear that they'd be next.

 

This would pin down many of the forces capable of turning back the shadow, and would mean only Rand and his forces might have a chance of throwing them back. 

 

They aren't waiting for Rand to go insane since he cleansed the source.  They don't know where he keeps the key, so that seems like a silly reason to wait.  The last reason, waiting for the Dark One himself, seems pointless to me.  If the whole fight comes down to the DO and Rand what do any of the other shadow spawn matter at all?

 

He could have not a single forsaken or trolloc and simply break loose and fight Rand.

 

The shadow cannot move them through gateways, we saw this in KoD already beyond a shadow of a doubt. So, the only quick movement they can make is the ways, in which they need to go in small numbers. Now, I suspect they have been gathering forces and hiding them this whole time. This may be one of the things Demandred has been directly involved with, ie he has been monitoring how many forces are where, telling them where to move etc.

 

What the shadow will be able to move via gateways are dreadlords, darkfriends, equipment and food, and of course the forsaken. This is powerful, but not as powerful as moving shadowspawn this way.

 

As for the borderlands, I think the lion's share of the fighting will take place there for the simple fact that moving enough shadowspawn along the ways to other locals to outnumber what is in the blight would be impossible. Not only that, some of the shadowspawn will not be going through the ways, such as worms, etc. I think we will see those in the last battle, but only in the north. And with 200k troops now outside the borderlands, they cannot face what is coming. Even with them they would lose with no aid (portal stone lives imo indicate this)..so they will need every person there that possibly can be.

 

As for Algemar, he does not run all of shinier and we can make a good bet there were some BA AS influencing this troop movement.

[Red Hand Man]

Man, that Great Stump speech Loial is going to make is going to be very very important.

Good thing Elder Haman is currently shutting down the Ways.

[Durinax]

its a good thing none of the forsaken (that we know about) studied portal stones extensively or else they could do mass movements almost as fast as travelling. . . except Lanfear seems to know quite a bit about portal stones since she found rand somehow. . .

[Arkelias]

That's a good point about portal stones.  We know Lanfear can use them so it stands to reason the Shadow has access to that info. 

[Aiemond]

That's a good point about portal stones.  We know Lanfear can use them so it stands to reason the Shadow has access to that info. 

 

It is possible that using a portal stone will kill shadowspawn just like a gateway does.

[Luckers]

Even if it doesn't Rand only barely managed carrying maybe a hundred people, and he had an angreal. It might work for small strike forces, but that'd be it. Not worth the bother.

[Mr Ares]

Suggesting that Agelmar would have just argued against leaving enough forces behind and then leaving Fal Dara anyway, knowing (and saying) that the Shadow never sleeps is not giving one of the 5 living Great Captains (Mat included) enough credit, I think.

He is not hte king. It's not his decision t make. If the king said come, bring all your soldiers, then ultimately, it is his duty to come, and to bring his soldiers.

 

That doesn't mean Alesune is one of the best generals around.

She doesn't have to be. She might just need some idea of how many soldiers are left, which (as far as we can tell) is information she is in a good position to know. Where she lives is similarly unimportant. She is not trying to run a war, just saying the Blight is virtually unguarded. It is quite possible (though by no means certain) that the truth over the whole Blightborder is somewhere between the two statements we have.

 

I'll take Agelmar anytime over Alesune.

As Agelmar doesn't offer an assesment, we'll have to make do with Alesune.

 

And who knows exactly how much of a difference it will make if the Borderlands get overrun in the first hours of the invasion from the Blight (if it had been stripped)... or after -say- a day or two of hard fighting..?

Well, there are various factors to consider, such as the possibility of being overrun before they can have most of their soldiers retreat and the impact on morale of having the Borderlands fall, heightened by the short time which it takes. Defensively, they now have to guard a much wider front (although guarding the front in general is harder with Traveling forces opposing you), yet offensively they are no longer contrained by the Mountains and a limited number of passes, thus they can operate on a much wider front.

 

I did say 'glorified'.

Still sounds a bit like the grave error we were warned against making.

 

And I didn't say 'go badly' I said that the blightborder would fall.

That would be "going badly".

what remains will serve the same purpose in holding off that army until word can reach the south.

Only if they have sufficient forces to effect a significant delay on their advance - which is the importance of the difference between the two assesments. If things are as bad as Alesune suggests, they might not have enough time.

 

Man, that Great Stump speech Loial is going to make is going to be very very important.

RJ did say that the Light was in a bad way. If they can't make peace with the Seanchane, or Loial is not persuasive enough, or any number of other things don't go their way, they won't win.

[Blackhoof]

I reckon in the book, the ogier, the Seanchan(after thaey have released all non-seanchan damane, that is), the Aiel, the wetland armies, the Aes Sedai, and the Ash'man will all combine to fight this huge, massive, larger-than-life battle with the shadows forces. It will be epic.  ;D

[wavemistresstrammell]

I saw that some people were specualting that perhaps trollocs could be transported using the TP instead of the OP. I don't think this will happen because, if my memory serves me correctly, the other Forsaken aren't allowed to use the TP anymore because Moridin is Nae'blis, and the TP is now the perk he gets from his title. I for one just don't see Moridin transporting trollocs around like that, he would think that it's beneath him. If the DO doesn't specifically say "Do this" I don't see him doing it to be nice or help out haha.

 

 

[Luckers]

Quote

And I didn't say 'go badly' I said that the blightborder would fall.

 

 

That would be "going badly".

 

Comparatively speaking, no it isn't. The Blightborder was going to fall either way. This way the Borderlander, the best trained army in the Westlands, live to fight with the Light.

 

 

[Arkelias]

I saw that some people were specualting that perhaps trollocs could be transported using the TP instead of the OP. I don't think this will happen because, if my memory serves me correctly, the other Forsaken aren't allowed to use the TP anymore because Moridin is Nae'blis, and the TP is now the perk he gets from his title. I for one just don't see Moridin transporting trollocs around like that, he would think that it's beneath him. If the DO doesn't specifically say "Do this" I don't see him doing it to be nice or help out haha.

 

 

 

I hadn't thought about that.  Good point wavemistress.  This is another instance of the shadow hamstringing itself, but as Jordan himself said evil isn't always intelligent.

[wavemistresstrammell]

I saw that some people were specualting that perhaps trollocs could be transported using the TP instead of the OP. I don't think this will happen because, if my memory serves me correctly, the other Forsaken aren't allowed to use the TP anymore because Moridin is Nae'blis, and the TP is now the perk he gets from his title. I for one just don't see Moridin transporting trollocs around like that, he would think that it's beneath him. If the DO doesn't specifically say "Do this" I don't see him doing it to be nice or help out haha.

I hadn't thought about that.  Good point wavemistress.  This is another instance of the shadow hamstringing itself, but as Jordan himself said evil isn't always intelligent.

Thank you ^.^ *sniffles* We can get along ^.^

[Mr. Micawber]

Set the Horde loose?

 

Lok'tar ogar!

 

The rivers will run red with the blood of the cursed Alliance!

 

Oh.

 

Wait.

 

Not that Horde, huh?

 

Err, En Taro Adun, anyone?

[wavemistresstrammell]

Set the Horde loose?

 

Lok'tar ogar!

 

The rivers will run red with the blood of the cursed Alliance!

 

Oh.

 

Wait.

 

Not that Horde, huh?

 

Err, En Taro Adun, anyone?

uhhhhh I don't get it.. did I miss something in the series or is this a different series? If so which one and is it any good?

[Durinax]

uhhhhh I don't get it.. did I miss something in the series or is this a different series? If so which one and is it any good?

its warcraft, mainly warcraft 3, with some war2 sounds in it

[wavemistresstrammell]

Damn,I was hoping it was a book haha. I don't play a lot of computer games, the only one I've ever played is Dungeon Siege 2.. which I loved. Would have been nice is my son didn't figure out how to erase it so I could have beat it... haha

[Charlz Guybon]

The borderlands have been stripped. 

 

That's not entirely true. The Borderlanders say they left enough forces to stand against anything short of the Trolloc Wars come again. Admittedly that's what's going to happen, but it's not like there are no forces up there... Lan for instance. And I doubt Lan would allow himself to be wiped out for no point without ensuring warning went south.

 

 

 

In Eye of the World Lord Agelmar accepted that he didn't have enough troops and was going to lose in Tarwin's Gap.  The only reason they won was Rand's intervention using the eye of the world.

 

If they were so short on troops then, and have brought over 50% of their forces south, how do they have enough troops to turn back the sea of trollocs the Dark One must be sitting on?

 

Lan just got there and admittedly he could be a rallying point, but by himself he's insufficient to the task.  If he ran up against Demandred and a horde of trollocs it would go very, very badly for him.

I highly doubt that 50k troops is anywhere close to 50% of their army. After all they have a thoroughly militarized society. Still it's a grievous blow to Shienar's defense since they are likely the most experienced men and could have been used as a mobile reserve. 

[Mr. Micawber]

Damn,I was hoping it was a book haha. I don't play a lot of computer games, the only one I've ever played is Dungeon Siege 2.. which I loved. Would have been nice is my son didn't figure out how to erase it so I could have beat it... haha

 

If it makes you feel better, there are some really, really awful "books" written about Azeroth aka Warcraft.

 

And yes, it was a reference to the Horde, the principal antagonists of the first two and a half Warcraft games, and the wary ally of the third.

 

Oh, and En Taro Adun was the greeting of the Protoss, from yet another Blizzard game. Ahh, my misspent youth!

[Arkelias]

The Warcraft books were bad, but some the Starcraft ones are surprisingly good! En Taro Adun Executor Micawber.

 

I highly doubt that 50k troops is anywhere close to 50% of their army. After all they have a thoroughly militarized society. Still it's a grievous blow to Shienar's defense since they are likely the most experienced men and could have been used as a mobile reserve. 

 

I could be very wrong about this.  I said half because that's what I remember them saying in the book, that they took over half the troops.  I have a feeling the numbers will end up much higher, largely because of the number of troops that assaulted Rand and Logain in KoD.

 

If that was most of the forces the shadow had it would make Tarmon Gaidon a bit anticlimatic, in my opinion.

 

Wavemistress, I'm not sure you'd like either Warcraft or Starcraft but both play a bit like Dungeon Seige 2.  Another fun game!

 

 

 

[wavemistresstrammell]

Damn,I was hoping it was a book haha. I don't play a lot of computer games, the only one I've ever played is Dungeon Siege 2.. which I loved. Would have been nice is my son didn't figure out how to erase it so I could have beat it... haha

 

If it makes you feel better, there are some really, really awful "books" written about Azeroth aka Warcraft.

 

And yes, it was a reference to the Horde, the principal antagonists of the first two and a half Warcraft games, and the wary ally of the third.

 

Oh, and En Taro Adun was the greeting of the Protoss, from yet another Blizzard game. Ahh, my misspent youth!

Haha I remember seeing there were some Warcraft books when I was in the book store a couple weeks ago. I remember thinking "What in the world?" When I saw them.

[Mr. Micawber]

The borderlands have been stripped. 

 

That's not entirely true. The Borderlanders say they left enough forces to stand against anything short of the Trolloc Wars come again. Admittedly that's what's going to happen, but it's not like there are no forces up there... Lan for instance. And I doubt Lan would allow himself to be wiped out for no point without ensuring warning went south.

 

 

 

In Eye of the World Lord Agelmar accepted that he didn't have enough troops and was going to lose in Tarwin's Gap.  The only reason they won was Rand's intervention using the eye of the world.

 

If they were so short on troops then, and have brought over 50% of their forces south, how do they have enough troops to turn back the sea of trollocs the Dark One must be sitting on?

 

Lan just got there and admittedly he could be a rallying point, but by himself he's insufficient to the task.  If he ran up against Demandred and a horde of trollocs it would go very, very badly for him.

I highly doubt that 50k troops is anywhere close to 50% of their army. After all they have a thoroughly militarized society. Still it's a grievous blow to Shienar's defense since they are likely the most experienced men and could have been used as a mobile reserve. 

 

Considering what they sent to Tar Valon during the Aiel War, 50k doesn't sound like a huge amount more, since it's a collective force.

 

And the problem with Tarwin's Gap was pretty clearly that the Shienarans had "somehow" managed to miss the massing of a force until it was essentially too late to call for reserves from the rest of the Blightborder. The Shadow had been very sly that year, by pushing nasty raids along the entire border, but masking their main concentration point.

 

Essentially, none of the four countries knew who would be the schwerpunkt of the upcoming Shadow offensive, even though the entire Borderlands knew a blow was coming. That meant the other three rulers held back sending anything to Shienar until after the Shadow made its intentions clear. The problem with that strategy was pretty simple. None of the other nations' support would arrive until after the Shadow's blows were already falling. Now, Shienar could have extracted a fearsome price from that Trolloc army, but it still would have been wrecked. That, in turn, would have forced the other three nations to pour their own reserves into stopping the advance.

 

Like Malkier half a century earlier, they probably could have stopped the advance, and probably even reversed part of it, like they did for Malkier - that reversal which Agelmar alludes to is most likely the result of those 100 sisters the Tower sent finally showing up. If you reread Agelmar's history lesson, it's not that the Light couldn't win back some, or even most, of the lost land. The problem is that every mile the Light gives up gets turned into the Blight, *and* the other nations are weakened from having to defend more of the Blightborder with less.

 

It's very clear that Lan is by no means alone - there are thousands of Malkieri left. But that's a far cry from a nation that once could have probably have put 100 thousand lances in the field on its own.

[Arkelias]

Thanks Mic.  That really helped my understanding of the Blightborder during the EotW.  They probably did have many more troops than I was thinking.

[Blackhoof]

Apparently each of the borderlands have 200k troops spread throughout their respective countrysides, but im not sure how reliable my source is.  ;)

[CTM]

I think the opposite as the Original Poster. What is the hurry? food is going bad practically instantly. people are fighting pretty much everywhere. people are going to starve and kill each other, and if the dark one doesn't show up soon, who is there to blame but the dragon?