Is the second half of the series what you envisioned?

[WWWwombat]

I always thought the Perrin+Faile stuff was the worst but on a reread I have to say it's Elayne + the andor related stuff. And basically every time there are rival groups of female channellers in a room together hissing at eachother like a bunch of cats getting ready for a fight.

 

If I want actual political intrigue I'll read A Song of Ice and Fire. And while I appreciate the whole theme of communication / co-operation (or rather the conspicuous lack thereof) it's taken to the level of farce in some scenes; I'd rather Rand just took the male CK and glassed the whole WT + Andor + Seafolk and have the world burn than have to read about more of their hissy fits. 

 

I lol'd about glassing the WT + Andor (do Andor while the Windfinders are there and get a two-for!).  Also, I have to agree that A Song of Ice and Fire makes Elayne's politics look like child's play, but still, I don't mind Elayne's stuff as much as everyone else seems to, although I admit it does drag a lot.  Basically the whole Kin/Windfinders/Aes Sedai dynamic should have been focused on a lot less.  I actually found the politics interesting even though it was kind of light.

[Arkelias]

Martin excels at intrigue.  Its why I'm so unimpressed with Jordan's attempts.  Few things are as fun to read as GOOD political intrigue!

[Luckers]

As far as what being a channeller has to do with being a general, if you want to counter Rand you need to equal the Aes Sedai and the Asha'man.  You need to fight the way they do or you'll get crushed.

 

Well, consider, roughly one percent of the population can channel. Being insanely conservative that means there are around 200,000 channelers out there, of which 5,000 are affiliated. Thats in the Westlands alone, and given travelling they are no limited.

 

The Shadow has fairly significant pools to draw from.

 

 

 

I didn't realize there were that many.  I remember a scene where they spoke of the ability to channel being culled, and that those with the power and increasingly rare.  I thought it was more like 1 in a 1000, but I have nothing to back that up really.  It was just my perception.

 

RJ stated that in the Age of Legends roughly three percent of the population could channel, and that it has been culled down to one percent.

 

Given population decline and the vast uninhabited regions of the Westlands I'd say that 20 million is a highly conservative guess, which means 200,000. It gets worse too, if the Tower had been gathering and training all channelers (and not swearing oaths) then that would increase by as much as sixfold.

 

1.2 million Aes Sedai.

[Gracel]

I'm not quite sure why one would want to keep reading the series if they were so bored. Personally I have never been bored by any of the books. Impatient, maybe, to find out what will happen, but not bored.

 

The problem with this whole discussion is that terms like "bored" and "interesting" are subjective. Trying to back up an argument that a book is boring based on reader reviews is pointless. The best indicator of a book's success is sales. I'm not sure what the figures are, but given that ALL the WOT books are still in print and the publisher is happily producing three more books, Jordan was clearly doing something right.

 

I disagree with the statement that an author has complete control of the content of their story. Delivery, certainly. However, for many authors, once they begin writing a story the characters take over. Why did Perrin spend 21 chapters chasing Faile? Because that was the nature of his character and the natural progression of the plot. For RJ to have anything else occur would not have been true to the story. Granted, he could have skipped showing us what happened and instead shown some big battles, but that 1) was not his style and 2) would have confused the heck out of readers when Perrin showed up later and said, "Rand, I've taken care of the Shaido. They won't be troubling you any longer. Oh, and I met some Seanchan. They seem like nice enough fellows."

 

Personally, I love the multiple POV scenes and the scenes with minor side characters. Rather than being confusing or distracting, they add to the clarity of the WOT world for me. The fact that RJ manages to keep so many characters, places, and times consistent throughout 11 books is nothing short of remarkable.

 

Clearly, RJ's style and WOT is not for everyone. I'm sure there are plenty of violent, action-packed fantasy books out there for those bored by these books. Frankly the battle scenes are what I find a little boring, although I'm hoping the TG battle will be epic and grand. A TG battle that lasted over 6 books? I probably would have quit reading.  :)

[Tyrell]

There are plenty of bits I like, but the endless moronic posturing generally acting like imature teenagers that goes on between the various female channelers makes me want to kill myself.

[Arkelias]

The problem, Gracel, is the early books.  So many people like myself loved them.  When you have read several thousand pages of a story and loved it you want to see the ending.  You need to see the ending.  When those books change in style and tone it frustrates those of us who liked the simplicity of the earlier books.

 

Clearly, RJ's style and WOT is not for everyone. I'm sure there are plenty of violent, action-packed fantasy books out there for those bored by these books. Frankly the battle scenes are what I find a little boring, although I'm hoping the TG battle will be epic and grand. A TG battle that lasted over 6 books? I probably would have quit reading. 

 

Why is it because we like epic fight scenes it means we only like violent action packed fantasy books?  Some of us like those, and love to see character developement.  Some of us find both to be a major part of an epic fantasy series, like Lord of the Rings.  Have you read George R.R. Martin's A Song of Fire and Ice?  There's a great example of the political intrigue, battles and character development I love.  That's how I felt about Jordan's early books, but not his later.

 

I wouldn't have a read a six book battle either, if that's all it was.  If it was a war, and some of the scenes were battles while others were the same political machinations and same struggles faced by every day characters I would have read it and loved it.

 

It doesn't surprise me that many people like the series as is, or that you vehemently defend it from critism.  Still, you can't deny that there was a different tone to the first four to six books, and that the tone changed afterwards.  Many of you like the new tone, but does it surpise you that some of us have an issue with it?

 

It doesn't mean we don't like the series, or don't want to see it come to conclusion.  It just means we are disappointed with some of the turns it took, and wished it had been a bit shorter, cleaner and actually had an ending written by RJ as a result.

 

If you gave me a choice to cut some of the storylines, and to accelerate Tarmon Gaidon so the series ended in ten books I'd have done so.

 

Also, a final caveat for you youngins who didn't follow the books as they came out.  RJ told us the series would be four books.  Then six.  Then eight.  And so on and so forth.  I've been reading it since 1993.  Seventeen years with no ending.

 

We went into the series expecting the action packed epic story, not an extra three books of catty women arguing, smoothing skirts and establishing dominance while Tarmon Gaidon got further away instead of closer.  Every book that goes by that didn't reward us with a step closer to the ending made us make this face =(

 

I think we have a right given the years we've spent as devoted fans.

[wite wo1f]

To be honest when I was reading even the first books I never really expected an epic battle. The series to me always felt a lot more about character development than action.

 

Also I will agree that most of the time Perrin's POV was boring I disagree that some of the extra POVs don't add anything. I thought that the POV with Elenia was interesting if only because it showed how divided the foes of Elayne were. Then the most interesting chapter in the whole series, in my opinion anyway, was that of Tuon in KOD. It presented a unique viewpoint and that is what most if not all of the viewpoints add.

[Bob T Dwarf]

... I disagree with the statement that an author has complete control of the content of their story. Delivery, certainly. However, for many authors, once they begin writing a story the characters take over. Why did Perrin spend 21 chapters chasing Faile? Because that was the nature of his character and the natural progression of the plot. For RJ to have anything else occur would not have been true to the story. ...

 

One of the points that Jordan made in interviews about the series was that none of the characters were permitted to "take over" and write their own scenes.  Everything that every character says and does in the series is precisely what Jordan wanted and only what Jordan wanted.

 

Therefore, the whole Perrin/Faile arc is the way it is because that's how Jordan wanted it to be.  The series suffers for that.  And other such drawn-out scenes as well as the endless posturing and sniffing and skirt-smoothing.

 

We got all of that very early-on.  We didn't need to keep being endlessly beaten about the head and shoulders with it.

 

 

[Arkelias]

To be honest when I was reading even the first books I never really expected an epic battle. The series to me always felt a lot more about character development than action.

 

Also I will agree that most of the time Perrin's POV was boring I disagree that some of the extra POVs don't add anything. I thought that the POV with Elenia was interesting if only because it showed how divided the foes of Elayne were. Then the most interesting chapter in the whole series, in my opinion anyway, was that of Tuon in KOD. It presented a unique viewpoint and that is what most if not all of the viewpoints add.

 

I'd agree with you IF giving a side character a PoV was only done once in a while.  The Tuon chapter was great.  Its also one chapter.  Sixteen chapters from fourteen different people that don't advance the plot are something else again.

 

KoD is a good book because it returns to Jordan's earlier style.  I just finished re-reading book 10 and it has not one redeeming feature.  Nothing is resolved.  Not a single plot line.  New ones are introduced, and old ones are talked about, but we had no resolution.

 

Any fantasy novel, regardless of whether it is part of a series, should have that resolution.  What does this have to do with your point White Wolf?  If we'd stuck to a narrower selection of PoV characters we'd have actually seen Robert Jordan write the end of the series.

 

Yes, this is bitterness talking.  I still remember how angry I was and how used I felt when I read book 10, and then afterwards read New Spring.  Both are a waste of space, and had neither been written maybe we'd have seen an ending to what could have been the greatest fantasty epic of all time.  An ending Jordan promised us before the millenium.

 

My 20th high school reunion is coming up and I'll be discussing the WoT with several friends there.  Friends who are just as displeased at how the story was allowed to meander through countless meaningless plots that simply weren't interesting.

 

We all kick ourselves, because we wanted to stop reading.  Each new book after 6 felt like a slap in the face in some ways, but we all kept reading because we are desperate for closure.  Its like being in an abusive relationship =X

 

... I disagree with the statement that an author has complete control of the content of their story. Delivery, certainly. However, for many authors, once they begin writing a story the characters take over. Why did Perrin spend 21 chapters chasing Faile? Because that was the nature of his character and the natural progression of the plot. For RJ to have anything else occur would not have been true to the story. ...

 

I'd agree with Bob on this one.  Have you ever written a novel?  I'm not being sarcastic, many on these boards have myself included.  Your story at finish will in no way resemble the original concept.  You will hack out whole sections and re-write them because they are boring, and if you don't want to do it your editor will make you.

 

You have complete control over how the story goes, and can change it at any time.  I've done that with my own work, and RJ was far more skilled than I.  Storytelling is about an ever evolving story, not a complete one that you write from your head without the freedom to make changes.  At least it is in my own experience.

[redbj]

im on book 4 in my current re read.

 

generally at this stage im so glad he starts to drag it out.....the more books...the more detail, the better.we'll get to the end of it, and then read and re read and be upset because things didnt get anough detail.

 

when i get to book 9, im generally skimming though....through most of the stuff that is.

 

all im saying is this...now we dont have the big puicture we are insatiable....we arent content with slow plot lines.

 

when its all over we'll be all upset because the series could have gone on much longer.

 

seriously...even 20 books could be written about this world Jordan Created.

 

its all about patience.

 

just think how much more you wanted tolkien to expand, and apply that logic.

[Mr Ares]

Sixteen chapters from fourteen different people that don't advance the plot are something else again.

Which povs don't further the plot?

 

If we'd stuck to a narrower selection of PoV characters we'd have actually seen Robert Jordan write the end of the series.

Maybe not. He might just have written fewer books over the same span of time. After all, if he wrote CoT, and then scrapped the whole lot to start again from scratch, we wouldn't have got it any faster. Then people would be complaining of GRRM style 5 year gaps between books. Combine CoT and KoD into one and there's still just as much to write. More might have been left on ther cutting room floor, but you might just have had the cobined version come out when KoD ended up coming out.

 

seriously...even 20 books could be written about this world Jordan Created.

Doesn't mean all 20 of them need to be in this series. If Jordan wrote, say, a 10 book WoT series, and then wrote another ten books worth of side stories, prequels, sequels, all expanding on his world, then those who want more can get more and those who just want closure can get that.

[Arkelias]

im on book 4 in my current re read.

 

generally at this stage im so glad he starts to drag it out.....the more books...the more detail, the better.we'll get to the end of it, and then read and re read and be upset because things didnt get anough detail.

 

when i get to book 9, im generally skimming though....through most of the stuff that is.

 

all im saying is this...now we dont have the big puicture we are insatiable....we arent content with slow plot lines.

 

when its all over we'll be all upset because the series could have gone on much longer.

 

seriously...even 20 books could be written about this world Jordan Created.

 

its all about patience.

 

just think how much more you wanted tolkien to expand, and apply that logic.

 

I've heard people suggest this before which is why I re-read the series from start to finish after vowing never to touch another WoT book.  Its not nearly so bad now as it was waiting years between books, on that I agree.  However, it doesn't make the bad books any better.  You should never have to skim whole sections because they are boring and add nothing to the plot, or if you do skip them it should only be a few chapters and not the majority of entire books.

 

 

Which povs don't further the plot?

Which ones do I think could have been stricken and still maintained a great series?  Galina, Elayne, the Aes Sedai hunting the black Ajah in the tower, Elenia, Rotan(sp), and that's just off the top of my head.  If I went book by book I could find far more.

 

What you have to ask yourself is two questions.  Were these chapters fun and interesting to read? Did they advance the plot towards Tarmon Gaidon? 

 

A two hundred page section covering one day of Elayne's life that has no resolution and doesn't move her towards the throne meets neither criteria. Why did she ever need an extended point of view anyway?  I never saw her as a main character and I don't like any of the scenes she is in.  I'd cut her whole cloth and find another way to show her taking the throne, or at least drastically reduce her 'screen time'.

 

Perrin fails the first test, those chapters are tedious.  However, it does move him towards Tarmon Gaidon.  Some of those chapters need to stay in, but I'd cut about half of them.  That's what an editor should have done.

 

I agree people would like to read 20 books in the WoT.  Imagine this though.  What if the main WoT was 8-10 incredible books with no boring parts.  Later, he publishes Elayne's story in a book of its own (not that anyone would have bought that book).  Repeat ad nauseam for all the side characters that got inserted into the main plot and didn't belong there.

 

Imagine a trilogy or even more about Lews Therin and his rise to power, about his romance with a young Mieren (Lanfear) and drilling the bore initially.  Imagine more of the prequels Jordan talked about writing.  We could have had a significant number of those rather than books that drove people from the series.

 

Book ten was so bad that I know people who were faithful for over ten years, but were so badly burned they never came back and never will again.  When an author begins a series he makes an intellectual promise to his readers.  By book ten Jordan shattered that promise, which is why so many people left the series.  It is, without a shadow of a doubt, the worst book I've ever read.

 

As I mentioned earlier I'm a writer.  Much of writing is art, but much of it is science as well.  That science is well documented in a number of books on writing.  Jordan broke nearly every rule in book ten, and broke many of them in the books from 7-11. 

 

Take the prologue for example.  A prologue is designed to be a short vinette that gives some perspective to the reader.  Its not designed to be 150 pages and encompass 5+ viewpoints.  Jordan needed more editorial guidance in the later books, but because of the series success I believe Tor was afraid to give that.  Its a shame, because the series suffered for that.

 

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Despite what I said earlier, fairness compels me to add that some of what we all object to was probably forced by the publisher.

 

While this is AN EPIC SERIES, with everything that that entails, new readers came along every few years.  The publisher would have wanted enough of the "basics" included in every volume that a totally new reader would be able to understand the characters and the overall plot.  Thus, the endless posturing and sniffing and skirt-smoothing in every volume.  Thus the endless rerhashing and back-filling of so many things that take up space and consume time and fail to further the story.

 

That said, I agree that the editor being married to the author results in a "different" set of editing decisions than would otherwise obtain.

 

In this case I don't think that different means better.

[Arkelias]

Hmm, I hadn't considered that angle bob.  But if new readers come along every few years wouldn't they start with the Eye of the World?  I can't imagine someone randomly picking up a later book in the series.

 

Almost everyone I know would begin with book one.  Given that why repeat all the same details and descriptions from book to book?

[Bob T Dwarf]

The Eye of the World and others of the earlier books aren't always on the shelf everywhere.

 

Imagine a scenario where The Path of Daggers, Winters Heart, and Crossroads of Twilight are all that are on the shelves when you notice the series for the first time.

 

You'd be utterly at sea about who these characters are and why they interact the way that they do without that back-filling and rehashing etal.

 

Suppose the idea and theme behind the series grabbed you.  Would you wait until The Eye of the World was back in-stock before you bought your first book, or would you start with what was there?

[Arkelias]

If I started the series with The Path of Daggers I'd quickly conclude that the author sucked and never pick up another book.  If I somehow made it through PoD I'd never make it throuhg WH or CoT.  I can barely handle those books after having read the great ones from the beginning of the series.

 

I'd love to meet even a single person who came that late into the series and didn't put the book down in confusion and disgust.  I know there must be at least a few out there!

 

There are some series where you could start in the middle and still understand what's going on.  The WoT has something like 1900 characters per the encyclopedia site.  A new reader would be overwhelemed.

[Majsju]

 

 

I'd love to meet even a single person who came that late into the series and didn't put the book down in confusion and disgust.  I know there must be at least a few out there!

 

I know several who have started reading just the last few years, none of them have put down any of the books, and certainly not used words like "disgust".

 

The only people I do know who have actually quit reading have done so after either TEOTW or TGH, but that is because they realised the genre was not for them.

 

There are some series where you could start in the middle and still understand what's going on.  The WoT has something like 1900 characters per the encyclopedia site.  A new reader would be overwhelemed.

 

If you can start in the middle of a series and immidiatly understand what is going on, I would not really count it as a real series, or at least an amazingly crappy one. Halfway through a series and nothing has happened? Oh joy, what a read that must be...

[Arkelias]

I know several who have started reading just the last few years, none of them have put down any of the books, and certainly not used words like "disgust".

 

So you know people who started in the middle of the series and kept reading?  I find that hard to believe, but hey anything is possible.  How they derived any enjoyment I'm not sure.  How could they be anything other than hopelessly lost?

 

If you can start in the middle of a series and immidiatly understand what is going on, I would not really count it as a real series, or at least an amazingly crappy one. Halfway through a series and nothing has happened? Oh joy, what a read that

 

So Harry Potter is amazingly crappy and not a real series?  Terry Goodkind's books aren't a real series either?  I think you're going to have a hard time convincing millions of fans about that.

 

Nor did I suggest that you could immediately understand everything that's going on. Its assinine to suggest that because you can understand the basic plot of a later book in the series that nothing happened up to that point.   

 

Some series have self encapsulated stories.  Read a Harry Potter book in the middle of the series and you are going to have a lot of questions, but you will still understand what's going on.  The same holds true if you picked up one of the later books by Terry Goodkin you'd have many questions about what came before, but you'd understand the story currently going on in that one.

 

If you picked up A Path of Daggers or Crossroads of Twilight you'd be clueless.  Almost every series I've read has major plots that span the series, and minor plots that are resolved in each book.  Voldemort coming back is a long term theme in Harry Potter.  The Goblet of Fire is a subplot resolved in that book.

 

Very little was resolved in the later books of the Wheel of Time.  How many books did Perrin chase the Aiel for?  How long as Elayne struggled to land the throne?  How long have the Aes Sedai struggled towards the white tower in their civil war?

 

These stories are NOT self encapsulated and thus would be very confusing to new readers.  As usual, Majsju, you are over simplifying things to make your point.  I understand that's your style, but I also feel its innacurate and dismissive of other writers.  Just my opinion, of course.

 

 

 

 

 

[Majsju]

 

 

So you know people who started in the middle of the series and kept reading?  I find that hard to believe, but hey anything is possible.  How they derived any enjoyment I'm not sure.  How could they be anything other than hopelessly lost?

 

Hm, I think I misread your post. I read it as meaning people who started to read the series late, as in picking up TEOTW quite recently.

 

 

 

So Harry Potter is amazingly crappy and not a real series?  Terry Goodkind's books aren't a real series either?  I think you're going to have a hard time convincing millions of fans about that.

 

Harry Potter is aimed at a younger audience than tWOT, so a bit different standards should be used.

Goofkind on the other hand is the worst books in the history of fantasy.

 

If you picked up A Path of Daggers or Crossroads of Twilight you'd be clueless.  Almost every series I've read has major plots that span the series, and minor plots that are resolved in each book.  Voldemort coming back is a long term theme in Harry Potter.  The Goblet of Fire is a subplot resolved in that book.

 

Thing is, you are not supposed to start with THOD or COT, you are supposed to start with TEOTW, or possibly NS. How many people do you know that picks up a new book, starts by reading a chunk in the middle, and if they like it, starts reading properly, from the beginning?

 

Very little was resolved in the later books of the Wheel of Time.  How many books did Perrin chase the Aiel for?  How long as Elayne struggled to land the throne?  How long have the Aes Sedai struggled towards the white tower in their civil war?

 

In a complex story, like tWOT, things need to start and end at certain points in time, because of their relation with other things. Faile could not have been rescued any earlier, because that rescue results in Perrin being where he needs to be at a certain point in time. Same with the White Tower. Ok, in theory Perrin could have rescued Faile in WH, but then RJ would have to come up with some insane reason to keep Perrin just sitting around for three books.

 

What must be realised here is that RJ wrote tWOT as a single, huge story.

 

These stories are NOT self encapsulated and thus would be very confusing to new readers.  As usual, Majsju, you are over simplifying things to make your point.  I understand that's your style, but I also feel its innacurate and dismissive of other writers.  Just my opinion, of course.

 

New reader are not supposed to start in the middle, so there is no need whatsoever to write simpler books just so they can understand. If you start with TEOTW, you will understand what is going on.

Just as someone reading ASOIAF are not supposed to start with AFFC, if they did they would be incredibly confused.

[OptimusPrime]

So Harry Potter is amazingly crappy and not a real series?

 

Are the Harry Potter books spinoffs of each other like the films? If so then no, they are not a real series, because single plot books and films are just that. Single, individual stories. The fact that the same characters are involved changes nothing. That doesnt pit a downer on it whatsoever, so theres no need to defend it, Im just pointing out the difference.

 

Terry Goodkind... His first few books were stand-alone. Best example is book 1. Rand Richard deals with the main problem, and theres nothing that comes up between that and the end. At the end it feels like the end and looks very much like it was originally meant to be. I think Sword of Truth becomes a series, but only when Jagang shows up. Jagang is the one plot that stops them from entirely being stand alone books. Again, that wasnt a dig at the series. That isnt what I dislike about those books; I think Goodkind can write, just that he cant imagine.

[Mr Ares]

Which povs don't further the plot?

Which ones do I think could have been stricken and still maintained a great series?

That's not what I asked. If the plot unfolded as it did, but without a given characters pov, would it make a difference? For example, if we didn't have ELayne's pov on the Andor stroyline, we just heard about it from others, through rumours. Now, having an evil character betray some of our good guys is quite a different experience depending on what indications you had that the person in question was evil. Is it out of the blue, or did we know, but the characters not, or did we have the same information they did, but they were too blind to see it? Furthermore, not all plotlines are concluded yet, so we don't know what relevance the BA hunt will have in the grand scheme of things.

 

Were these chapters fun and interesting to read? Did they advance the plot towards Tarmon Gaidon?

For many, the answer to the first is yet. In some cases, the answer to the latter is unknown as yet.

 

Imagine more of the prequels Jordan talked about writing.

Imagine the disappointing sales of New Spring being repeated over all of them.

We could have had a significant number of those rather than books that drove people from the series.

Every book drove someone from the series. Yet the popularity of the series as a whole continues to grow. The two most heavily criticised books in the series are PoD and CoT, both of which topped the NYT bestseller list, PoD being the first in the series to do so.

 

When an author begins a series he makes an intellectual promise to his readers. By book ten Jordan shattered that promise,

This "promise" is what? That he will finish it? Book 10 didn't break it, book 12 did - after all, he finished CoT, not AMoL. Or is the promise that he will produce a book Arkelias will love? Hardly. You are not the standard RJ works to.

 

Jordan broke nearly every rule in book ten, and broke many of them in the books from 7-11.

He probably broks a couple in earlier books. There are no rules in writing, only guidelines, and most every one of them you can think has been broken at some point to good effect. So why should RJ be hidebound by arbitrary "rules"? If they don't fit, don't use them.

 

Take the prologue for example. A prologue is designed to be a short vinette that gives some perspective to the reader. Its not designed to be 150 pages and encompass 5+ viewpoints.

A rather petty thing to get upset about. If the stuff in the prologues wasn't in the prologues, it would just be elsewhere. So does it really make a difference? Also, bear in mind that some of RJ's prologues were sold as e-books, so if people are going to pay extra for them, it's only fair they get their money's worth.

 

While this is AN EPIC SERIES, with everything that that entails, new readers came along every few years. The publisher would have wanted enough of the "basics" included in every volume that a totally new reader would be able to understand the characters and the overall plot. Thus, the endless posturing and sniffing and skirt-smoothing in every volume.

So braid tugging and sniffing are essential to understand the plot. I've seen many odd arguements on here, but I don't recall ever seeing this one before. People are not supposed to start with the later books in the series. Why would you start with a book that is tenth or eleventh in the series? You wouldn't expect to understand all the character interactions, all their past, not unless it was a series of standalones, or largely standalone works. More likely the rehashing is there because not everyone will have read the series recently. So you put in a few reminders, so those that didn't do a re-read are not lost, even if they miss some of the nuances.

 

I think Goodkind can write.

Many consider this rather unfortunate.

[Arkelias]

Maj said:

New reader are not supposed to start in the middle, so there is no need whatsoever to write simpler books just so they can understand. If you start with TEOTW, you will understand what is going on.

Just as someone reading ASOIAF are not supposed to start with AFFC, if they did they would be incredibly confused.

 

I think our whole dicussion here is moot as it was based on a misunderstanding.  I thought you were arguing that you could pick the series up in the middle and understand it, which didn't make sense to me.  We agree here.

 

 

Mr Ares said:

That's not what I asked. If the plot unfolded as it did, but without a given characters pov, would it make a difference? For example, if we didn't have ELayne's pov on the Andor stroyline, we just heard about it from others, through rumours. Now, having an evil character betray some of our good guys is quite a different experience depending on what indications you had that the person in question was evil. Is it out of the blue, or did we know, but the characters not, or did we have the same information they did, but they were too blind to see it? Furthermore, not all plotlines are concluded yet, so we don't know what relevance the BA hunt will have in the grand scheme of things.

 

If we didn't have Elayne's storyline the plot would have been better.  Nothing she's done since the bowl of the wind has mattered towards the story.  We could see Tarmon Gaidon come tomorrow having cut those chapters and I don't feel as if I'd have missed anything I care about.

 

Having the occasional chapter to show what your antagonists are doing makes sense.  I just don't think the side characters and antagonist chapters should ever outnumber your protagonists chapters.  The protagonists are the Edmond's Field crew.

 

I see the same flaw in your argument that I've seen in others.  If the plot arrives at a good point, but took 2,000 boring pages to do it the author failed.

 

For many, the answer to the first is yet. In some cases, the answer to the latter is unknown as yet.

 

For many more, the answer is no.  See this link if you doubt me:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Crossroads-Twilight-Wheel-Time-Book/product-reviews/0812571339/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_summary?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

 

Imagine the disappointing sales of New Spring being repeated over all of them.

 

New spring sales sucked because the book sucked.  It wasn't interesting.  In order to have an interesting book you need conflict, and there was precious little of that in New Spring.  There was no tension and no excitement.  Write a better prequel and you'll have better sales.

 

Every book drove someone from the series. Yet the popularity of the series as a whole continues to grow. The two most heavily criticised books in the series are PoD and CoT, both of which topped the NYT bestseller list, PoD being the first in the series to do so.

 

They topped the NYT bestseller list because they stood on the shoulders of the earlier books.  We bought the books not knowing the sucked.  When I purchased PoD I expected a book at least as good as LoC and was already in for the long haul because I'd bought so many books.

 

Selling books doesn't mean they are good, as is evidenced by the reviews on Amazon.  People bought them, but they felt angry and betrayed when they read them.  See my link above and just read a random cross section of twenty reviews if you doubt that.

 

A rather petty thing to get upset about. If the stuff in the prologues wasn't in the prologues, it would just be elsewhere. So does it really make a difference? Also, bear in mind that some of RJ's prologues were sold as e-books, so if people are going to pay extra for them, it's only fair they get their money's worth.

 

Before you dismiss this this let me explain why I brought it up.  Every time you shift viewpoints in a book it jars the reader.  The more often you do this the more likely you lose the reader.  Any professional reader will tell you this is so.  Count the PoVs in Eye of the World.  Then count them in Crossroads of Twilight.  See a difference?  The prologue in EotW was about ten (great) pages.  By CoT its 150 pages which is really about six chapters.

 

This "promise" is what? That he will finish it? Book 10 didn't break it, book 12 did - after all, he finished CoT, not AMoL. Or is the promise that he will produce a book Arkelias will love? Hardly. You are not the standard RJ works to.

 

You put promise in quotes like you disagree he made one.  This is, again, a well known fact for every professional writer.  If you disagree read any book on writing and I promise you will hear this promise mentioned.  In RJs case it was that he would should us a fantastic world we'd never seen, and that we would see Rand fight the dark one in Tarmon Gaidon.

 

If you cut every book after six and just re-wrote the last two to end the series he'd have fulfilled that intellectual promise.  In this case it wasn't even just an intellectual promise.  When did you start reading the series?  We were promised four books, then six, then eight and then that book 12 would be the last book.  Now we're getting fourteen. 

 

Realize that it isn't just me Ares.  I have a very well represented view of the series.  By writing books I don't love he's alienating everyone who shares my view.  There are a lot of us Ares, people who loved the early books but not the ones after book six.  Even you have to be aware of that schism among the fan base.

 

He chose to write books for himself, which is great.  Now his legacy is marred by the rancor many of his former fans feel.  That will, unfortunately, never change.  Some of us will still finish the series, but few will do it with the sense of wonder and excitement we hoped for when we left Edmond's Field for the first time along side our reluctant heroes.

 

 

He probably broks a couple in earlier books. There are no rules in writing, only guidelines, and most every one of them you can think has been broken at some point to good effect. So why should RJ be hidebound by arbitrary "rules"? If they don't fit, don't use them.

 

Accept that they do fit and in breaking them he alienated a huge chunk of his readers.  Can you deny that?  These boards are comprised of the people who like the series.  The other viewpoint is not often represented here, but it sure is on Amazon and anywhere else you can buy the books.

 

I'll close by saying this.  RJ was a genuis.  He created a world that you and I love so much we take the time out of our lives to debate about it.  I acknowledge that brilliance, which is exactly what it bothers me to see what the later books became.  That brilliant series could have been much greater than it is.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes there are vast problems with volumes 7, 8 and 9, but we wouldn't really notice them IF ...

 

Jordan hadn't lost his way and had only stuck to his original pace. 

 

The Eye of the World carries a 1990 copyright.  The Fires of Heaven a 1993 copyright.  That's five books in three years.

 

At that rate, we would have had Knife of Dreams by 1996, and the final words of A Memory of Light by 1998 at the latest.

 

The way things played out, with 2-3 years between subsequent volumes, we've all had too much time to mull each succeeding work, and notice all the parts that just don't sit right.  Too much time to "discuss", ( really,  wrangle about ) them.  Too much time to notice the warts.

 

Arkelias is correct.  Anytime an author and publisher bring a series to market there is an implicit contract with the reader that the story WILL be completed - and in a timely manner.  That contract was violated so egregiously in this case that several people and organizations who were avid enough fans of the series to start and maintain quality sites have given up, closed up shop, and walked away in disgust.  Wotmania being merely the latest of those.  Wotmania is especially puzzling given that the finish-line is now in-sight.

 

So, no, the second half of the series was nowhere near what I envisioned based on the first 5 books.

 

My favorite example of what is wrong with the later books comes from Knife of Dreams strangely enough, since it is the best book Jordan had written in the last 15 years.  Jordan claimed there was a gasp moment in KoD, yet nobody got it.  A few ideas were put forth, but according to Jordan, none of them were correct.  So, whatever Jordan thought would come as such a huge surprise obviously fell totally flat.

 

And that summarizes pretty much everything he wrote since The Fires of Heaven for me and Lord of Chaos for others.  They all fell totally flat.

 

Now, all we can do is hope that Sanderson can make something of the dog's breakfast he was handed.

 

[Perrin 187]

I would just like to point out that I read Eye of the World shortly after Knife of dreams came out and in about 6 months read through the entire series. It was a great read without the two year wait between books and I enjoyed the series immensly. And until I cam onto the forums didn't realise how much disdain the second half of series was held by many fans. I didn't even like Eye of the World all that much compared to alot of the other books due to its similiarties with LOTR, and thought it was a ripoff.

 

[Arkelias]

It's good to get the perspective of a new reader.  I'm nearly done with my first re-read in years, but its hard to shake the old emotions from waiting for book after book =p

 

I appreciate the series more now that I can read it all at once, or at least up throuhg KoD anyway.  It definitely helped to be able to read it in one chunk, and honestly had this been my first read I'd probably have less complaints.