two river rebellion

[Owners.Inc]

Andor can claim land belongs to them but unless they actually do something to incorporate it into the nation then it is just a freestanding land that no one owns.

If I own some land that I do nothing with, it's still my land. The TR folk are just squatters. Does Andor recognise the concept of squatters' rights?

 

 

I dunno about that...wouldn't it be really awkward for Eylane to suddenly make all the TR folk pay up? I don't think the TR folk would stand for it, not especially after they've been through so much. Sure, Eylane could sort of force them into paying up, but I don't she'd do that to Egwene's, Nynaeve's and especially Rand's homeland. On the other hand, there's no issue if (like people have been saying) Perrin makes a deal on behalf of the TR. Of course, there's no reason (except Saladea) why he would do that.That said, I can see him thinking that Eylane would make a better queen (having more experience and so on) and thus abdicating his title. I just liked the concept of Perrin being Lord of TR a lot more than Eylane.

 

Elayne has more channlers yes, but Perrin has Aes Sedai, Asha'man (which Elayne does not) and Wise Ones.

Assuming any of those are willing to fight for him and the TR. Neither the Wise Ones nor the AS seem likely to do that. Even the Asha'man are not guaranteed. On the other hand, Elayne has at least one channeler - herself.

 

Do you really see them fighting over the TR?

[Durinax]

Actually I doubt that this will erupt into civil war, the only thing that really happened was that Perrin saved the TR and thus earned the title of lord, there has been no sign (other than the banner) that they are going to split from Andor, I do not think that Perrin will say that they are leaving Andor when they are already basically their own country

[Manjunathan]

But what freedom do they get?

They don't have to kneel before a woman they don't know and done no service to them.

So none.

So you say. They get the freedom of not doing something they don't want to(i.e not kneeling to Elayne.)

 

It takes two to tango. And it is more likely to be his friends, the people he grew up with than those close to Elayne who suffer.

If there is war a lot of people on both sides are going to die. That means people close to Elayne too.

 

How is it relevant?

Because it proves that it is the fault of the Andoran throne that TR folk feel alienated.

If the mountain will not go to Muhammed...

TR being the mountain.

TR done more to the world and Andor than it has got in return by far.

Such as?

Raised the DR, three ta'veren vital for TG, a capable(if annoying) amyrlin seat, a powerful AS who healed stilling, helped cleanse saidin etc.  These people b/w them have saved Elayne's life on multiple occassions.

They still knelt. So the decision is out of their hands. It is Perrin who must kneel now.

Which he has no reason to do, against the will of his people.

She is perfectly justified.

How? Is there anything at all Elayne or her predecessors have done to better the lives TR folk.  

How so? They come, they see that whatever the Shadow wanted is gone, so they have no reason to stay. So, when Fain and Slayer make their presences felt, they have no reason to be there. And Rahvin would only send soldiers there to help Slayer.

How are the Queen Gaurds to know the danger is gone, when none of the TR folk  doesn't believe that trollocs were after the boys(except Tam). Also trolloc attack this far south would have attracted attention  of every Borderland nation, Aes Sedai,and others besides.

 

TR is not part of her country anymore.

Yes, it is.

No, it isn't.

TR common folk don't know Elayne. So they will judge her by her predecessors.

They don't know them either.

They do know that her predecessors have done nothing for TR.

Because they ruled under a different system of governance. This is not so in Elayne's case.

It is exactly so.

William's England=Absolute monarchy,Q.Victorias' Britain=constitutional monarchy

Andor=absolute monarchy (untill KoD it  was. No other system is said to be used in its 1000 year history)     

You mean the Last Battle?

Among other things.

I have already explained why TR don't need Elaynes' help in TG

The TR is not yet on easy street. And some of the new arrivals might rather Perrin bent knee than face further conflict.

TR is in a far better state than most other places. The new arrivals fought the Shaido for Perrin. They will fight Elayne if he asks.

Both Perrin and Elayne will avoid a confrontation among the forces of light before TG.

Will they really?

Yes.It is more likely that they will.

 

i don't think the seanchan would be a problem for the TR seeing as how Perrin has made a deal w/ Tylee Khirgan to protect em. as a matter of fact the Seanchan could be an ally for the TR.

No. The Seanchan have no reason to ally with the TR. They want to conquer all of Andor, TR included. They cam eto an agreement in hte short term, to deal with the Shaido.

As I have said earlier Seanchan has no reason to concentrate on TR. And if Tuon attacks TR and try to leash its women etc., Mat will defenitely oppose her.

After all, if we're going to talk in terms of allies, why wouldn't the AS side with one of their own?

Because Nyn and Egwene are AS too. They won't  like Elayne tryinng to kill their friends/relatives.

 

But later couldnot afford to maintain their control over it, so abandoned it(TGH Chapter 10: The Hunt Begins). Similar is the case of TR.

Yet Andor still maintains that this land is part of the TR. Cairhien abandoned its claim, Andor didn't.

I suppose Hardan  doesn't exactly compare with TR, at that. But a monarch claiming that TR is part of Andor sitting in her map room doesn't make it true, given that TR people doesn't even  know about that claim.

However 'big' their problems with each other might become, DO and TG will are much, much bigger.

That doesn't stop them addressing this one before it's too late.

If they pay too much attention on this problem both Elayne and TR people may end up in a Trolloc cookpot.

 

And when does it become 'too late'?

 

 

If I own some land that I do nothing with, it's still my land. The TR folk are just squatters. Does Andor recognise the concept of squatters' rights?

They are not squatters.

TR people have living the region for 1000 years before Andor claimed it.

 

Assuming any of those are willing to fight for him and the TR. Neither the Wise Ones nor the AS seem likely to do that. Even the Asha'man are not guaranteed. On the other hand, Elayne has at least one channeler - herself.

She is an AS who won't use  one power as a weapon. The Asha'man that Taim recruited from TR definitely won't stand for Elayne using the power to conquer their people. They all  look up to Perrin.

 

[Manjunathan]

Here is a quote from PoD

Chapter 8: A Simple Country Woman

"We don't know much about lawful rulers in the Two Rivers, Mistress Maighdin," he growled. He wasgoing to skin whoever had put them up this time. If stories about rebellion had spread this far. . . . He faced toomany complications already without adding more. "I suppose Morgase was a good queen, but we had to fendfor ourselves, and we did."

This is the latest  we get from Perrin in regards to Andors' claim of TR. Even when he is uncertain about his position as the Lord of TR he is adamant in maintaining that TR is not under the rule of Andoran Queens, just like other TR folk. That is what matters, not his title as Lord.

I do not see Perrin as adamant about Two Rivers not being under rule of Andor Queens in that.  To me Perrin is telling that Two Rivers is not used to their rule; nothing more.

 

Here is another from tSR

Chapter 42 A Missing Leaf

"I wonder what Queen Morgase will think of that," Faile said. "This is part of Andor. Queens seldomlike strange banners being raised in their realms."

"That's nothing but lines on a map," Perrin told her. It was good to be still; the throbbing from thearrowhead seemed to have abated, somewhat. "I did not even know we were supposed to be part of Andor until I went to Caemlyn. I doubt many people here do."

"Rulers have a tendency to believe maps, Perrin." There was no doubt of the dryness in Faile's tone."When I was a child, there were parts of Saldaea that had not seen a taxman in five generations. Once Father

could turn his attention from the Blight for a time, Tenobia made sure they knew who their queen was."

“This is the Two Rivers,'' he said, grinning, "not Saldaea.''

This clearly means that Perrin doesn't consider TR part of Andor. The other quote proves that he hasn't changed his opinion since. There have been many occasions in which other TR folk voiced the same opinion. 

A number of closer places might have had enough soldiers.

Can you name one such place .

 

Asking for Andor's soldiers & asking Andor's ruler, those also could imply that Perrin acknowledged that Two Rivers was part of Andor.  Perhaps Perrin felt that getting rid of the trollocs were part of their duty; or perhaps he wished them to deal with the Whitecloaks.

Perrin  knew from Wolf dream that there was absolutely no hope for TR to hold out much longer. The main reason for sending out Faile was t keep her alive. Nowhere in this does he acknowledge TR part of Andor.

 

Their actions speak better than words. Andor queens absolutely abandoned TR a long time ago.

Actions do not make something legally binding; only a ruler's proclamation on the issue does.

Actions are morally binding.

In an agrarian society the relation b/w ruler and people would something like, the people pay taxes, ruler protects them  from danger, does some public  work and so on. In the case of  TR,the ruler has failed on all fronts. How can u fault TR ppl?!?   

Maybe the trip was becoming unsafe and/or expensive.

Nothing to indicate that.

 

There would be enough time to solve this issue.

Yes. There will be enough time, after TG.

And it is generally best to deal with problems when they are small

When there is time, yes. A spat b/w Elayne and Perrin is not particularly desirable at this point. If they negotiate now, it is possible that there will be one. To avoid this, it is best for TR issue to wait till after TG. It is not like this issue will get worse with waiting.

Since Slayer came to Two Rivers, the Dark One was probably involved in the situation.

One or more Forsaken and/or Darkfriend channelers might be sent next; or might have already been sent.

Elayne & her channelers would be the best candidate to deal with that

Slayer came to TR to kill Padan Fain. Shadow is no longer particularly interested in TR.

[pxnsolid]

 

Elayne has more channlers yes, but Perrin has Aes Sedai, Asha'man (which Elayne does not) and Wise Ones.

Assuming any of those are willing to fight for him and the TR. Neither the Wise Ones nor the AS seem likely to do that. Even the Asha'man are not guaranteed. On the other hand, Elayne has at least one channeler - herself.

 

in my whole statement, i was saying how her ability to travel is not a sure sign she would win said war, if it were to occur. i dont know that theyd fight for perrin, in fact id reasonably assume the wise ones and aes sedai wouldnt help him, though the asha'man just might.

[Mr Ares]

I dunno about that...wouldn't it be really awkward for Eylane to suddenly make all the TR folk pay up?

I'm sure her and Perrin can come to some arrangement.

 

Do you really see them fighting over the TR?

Only if they can't come to a peaceful solution. None of them want it to come to blows, but it might end up that way.

 

I do not think that Perrin will say that they are leaving Andor when they are already basically their own country

Well, until recently they haven't been a country, they have just been four villages. Even now, united under Perrin, it's not much of a country. But they won't be able to carry on as they are now, a part of Andor in name only. They will either separate or be brought back into the Andoran fold. And Elayne will need to deal with Perrin in some way at least prior to TG - she needs to know where he stands, if he is with her or against her or neutral to her.

 

So you say. They get the freedom of not doing something they don't want to(i.e not kneeling to Elayne.)

They have already knelt to Perrin. So the freedom is not theirs but his, whether or not he will kneel.

 

If there is war a lot of people on both sides are going to die. That means people close to Elayne too.

Doesn't work like that. The two sides are not equal. The TR is four villages and a few farms. Perrin grew up in EF, he knows the people there. On the other hand, Elayne will not have an army made up of childhood friends, people she knew, and so on. Some of them will be complete strangers, in a way they won't be with TR men. Fellow nobles need not be on the front line, and Palace servants need not be serving at all. Perrin might be forced to put Rand's dad, or Mat's on the front line, Elayne will not have to do so with the parents of her childhood friends in all likelihood. The two situations are very different.

 

If the mountain will not go to Muhammed...

TR being the mountain.

Tax collectors being the mountain. If the Inland Revenue won't come to the TR, someone from the TR can go to them.

 

Raised the DR, three ta'veren vital for TG, a capable(if annoying) amyrlin seat, a powerful AS who healed stilling, helped cleanse saidin etc.  These people b/w them have saved Elayne's life on multiple occassions.

Elayne has helped them. In return, the TR has been sheltered from outside foes for 1,000 years - after all, the easiest way to get to it is to pass through Andor. And recently they haven't paid anything at all for that. So Andor has saved all their lives.

 

Which he has no reason to do, against the will of his people.

Stop his people being slaughtered. Faile persuades him.

 

How? Is there anything at all Elayne or her predecessors have done to better the lives TR folk.

She has let them stay on her land, for free.

 

How are the Queen Gaurds to know the danger is gone

Well, the absence of follow up attacks would be a good indicator. They wouldn't stay indefinitely, not without reason.

Also trolloc attack this far south would have attracted attention  of every Borderland nation, Aes Sedai,and others besides.

It might, but the Borderland's can't get there without Andor's permission, and a lot of AS wouldn't care. Even those that did won't stay forever. There's no point in apermanent garrison there. In the aftermath of Winternight, all they could do is parade around looking pretty, at best making people feel a bit better. Then bugger off as there's no reason to stay.

 

TR is not part of her country anymore.

Yes, it is.

No, it isn't.

Yes, it is.

 

They do know that her predecessors have done nothing for TR.

Then they know nothing.

 

William's England=Absolute monarchy,Q.Victorias' Britain=constitutional monarchy

Andor=absolute monarchy (untill KoD it  was. No other system is said to be used in its 1000 year history)

William's England=Feudal monarchy. Andor=Feudal monarchy, Elayne's Andor is beginning the transition into an absolute monarchy (Elayne has made the decision to expand the Queen's Guard into a standing army, a move which has historically concentrated power in the hands of the monarch, and thus paved the way for the centralised control of an absolute monarchy, rather than the more devolved power of a feudal state). Even then, "feudal" or "absolute" monarchies are not monolithic states, but are capable of appearing in many forms - some of Andor's Queen's would have had near absolute power, while others would have been reliant on the power of the Great Houses that supported them. So just because it's still a monarchy, doesn't mean the government hasn't changed at all in a millennium.

 

I have already explained why TR don't need Elaynes' help in TG

And after?

 

TR is in a far better state than most other places. The new arrivals fought the Shaido for Perrin. They will fight Elayne if he asks.

They will fight and some of them will die. Knowing that, is the price worth paying? Will Perrin ask them to fight?

 

Both Perrin and Elayne will avoid a confrontation among the forces of light before TG.

Will they really?

Yes. It is more likely that they will.

No, it is more likely that they will have some sort of confrontation prior to TG. She needs her country united for TG. So she needs ot know where Perrin stands. She will not leave an enemy at her back if she can help it, but first she needs to find out if he is an enemy. Thus, confrontation.

 

Because Nyn and Egwene are AS too. They won't like Elayne tryinng to kill their friends/relatives.

Politically, Nynaeve is an irrelevance. On the other hand, Egwene, as the Amyrlin is important. However, Elayne is the first AS monarch in 1,000 years. Which is more important? Perrin submitting, or the WT's power? Bearing in mind AS can't use the OP as a weapon, so it is unlikely to be a matter of raining down lightning, but the Amyrlin having words with Perrin and the Women's Circles? That sort of support could bring the TR under control very quickly. And this does assume Egwene will still be in charge at the end of the series. I have my doubts. She could easily die and still reunify the Tower for TG.

 

I suppose Hardan  doesn't exactly compare with TR, at that. But a monarch claiming that TR is part of Andor sitting in her map room doesn't make it true, given that TR people doesn't even  know about that claim.

They will.

 

They are not squatters. TR people have living the region for 1000 years before Andor claimed it.

But then Andor did claim it. And they lived safely under Andor's wing for centuries. The place was a part of Andor. The Queen didn't cede it back to the people. Just because you were already a tenant when the landlord changed, doesn't mean you own the place now.

 

She is an AS who won't use  one power as a weapon.

She might not need to.

The Asha'man that Taim recruited from TR

Are safe at the BT, and won't be swanning off back home. Not unless they fancy seeing their heads adorn the Traitors' Tree.

 

Here is another from tSR

Chapter 42 A Missing Leaf

"I wonder what Queen Morgase will think of that," Faile said. "This is part of Andor. Queens seldomlike strange banners being raised in their realms."

"That's nothing but lines on a map," Perrin told her. It was good to be still; the throbbing from thearrowhead seemed to have abated, somewhat. "I did not even know we were supposed to be part of Andor until I went to Caemlyn. I doubt many people here do."

"Rulers have a tendency to believe maps, Perrin." There was no doubt of the dryness in Faile's tone."When I was a child, there were parts of Saldaea that had not seen a taxman in five generations. Once Father could turn his attention from the Blight for a time, Tenobia made sure they knew who their queen was."

“This is the Two Rivers,'' he said, grinning, "not Saldaea.''

So Faile thinks it reasonable? Meaning she (and thus Saldaea) might not support him? Perrin and the TR stand alone. Well, maybe she can talk him round.

 

Actions are morally binding.

Morals are not laws. Legally, TR is part of Andor.

In an agrarian society the relation b/w ruler and people would something like, the people pay taxes, ruler protects them  from danger, does some public  work and so on. In the case of  TR,the ruler has failed on all fronts. How can u fault TR ppl?!?

That's how. Both sides failed.

 

Yes. There will be enough time, after TG.

It will need to be addressed before that.

 

When there is time, yes. A spat b/w Elayne and Perrin is not particularly desirable at this point. If they negotiate now, it is possible that there will be one.

If they don't negotiate now, they will have to do so later, with risk of a spat still existing. And less reason to pull back from armed conflict. After all, pre-TG both sides know that it's coming and soldiers are needed.

 

in my whole statement, i was saying how her ability to travel is not a sure sign she would win said war, if it were to occur.

Currently, there is no way to counter it.

[Durinax]

currently Elayne will be trying to figure out how to get the BT off andorian soil without bloodshed, because I am sure she is still biased against them, plus this issue is mute if the BT prophesy comes true, since that would be disastrous for andor and Elayne will focus on there

 

TR could easily stand on its own, and losing it will not hurt Andor, in fact it would strengthen it because they could collect additional taxes from merchants moving between TR and Andor, the main problem is where the borders should be drawn. I am assuming that they will be drawn approximately halfway through the mountains and since most of the mines are on Andoran side, they will be happy about that, and selling iron, and other goods into the TR will really help Andoran economies. The TR's would really benefit from splitting becuase merchants would automatically head there because they would assume that a new nation would need lots of goods, plus with the recent economic growth there the economy of the TR will be strong in a few years

[Manjunathan]

They have already knelt to Perrin.So the freedom is not theirs but his, whether or not he will kneel.

They knelt before Perrin because they wanted to. They swore no oath of fealty. They serve and fight for Perrin because they want to. They will not kneel before Elayne because Perrin has(which he won't).

If there is war a lot of people on both sides are going to die. That means people close to Elayne too.

Doesn't work like that. The two sides are not equal. The TR is four villages and a few farms. Perrin grew up in EF, he knows the people there. On the other hand, Elayne will not have an army made up of childhood friends, people she knew, and so on. Some of them will be complete strangers, in a way they won't be with TR men. Fellow nobles need not be on the front line, and Palace servants need not be serving at all. Perrin might be forced to put Rand's dad, or Mat's on the front line, Elayne will not have to do so with the parents of her childhood friends in all likelihood. The two situations are very different.

If it comes to war Perrin will have Saldaea and Ghealdan supporting him.

 

 

 

If the mountain will not go to Muhammed...

TR being the mountain.

Tax collectors being the mountain. If the Inland Revenue won't come to the TR, someone from the TR can go to them.

Yeah, a farmer hardpressed to pay his taxes spending even more coin so that he can arrange someone to go to the Queen(to whom he feels no loyalty). That's just ridiculous.

 

Elayne has helped them.

In some ways yes. But all in all they TR folk have done much more.

In return, the TR has been sheltered from outside foes for 1,000 years - after all, the easiest way to get to it is to pass through Andor. And recently they haven't paid anything at all for that. So Andor has saved all their lives.

They haven't paid anything  recently because there have been no guardsmen recently. And did Andors' so called protection help them against trollocs or whitecloaks? No.

 

 

Which he has no reason to do, against the will of his people.

Stop his people being slaughtered. Faile persuades him.

If there is war, the end result will be unpredictable. And if Faile intended to persuade him she would have already done so.

How? Is there anything at all Elayne or her predecessors have done to better the lives TR folk.

She has let them stay on her land, for free.

It isn't her land. TR ppl lived there before Andor.

 

How are the Queen Gaurds to know the danger is gone

Well, the absence of follow up attacks would be a good indicator. They wouldn't stay indefinitely, not without reason.

Morgase would have kept them there even if it was to prevent others from sending their armies.

Also trolloc attack this far south would have attracted attention  of every Borderland nation, Aes Sedai,and others besides.

It might, but the Borderland's can't get there without Andor's permission, and a lot of AS wouldn't care. Even those that did won't stay forever. There's no point in apermanent garrison there. In the aftermath of Winternight, all they could do is parade around looking pretty, at best making people feel a bit better. Then bugger off as there's no reason to stay.

The Hall of the tower will care. Any one send to protect will stay for at least a few months to make sure trollocs don't come back. That would be long enough for the trollocs  to return.

 

TR is not part of her country anymore.

Yes, it is.

No, it isn't.

Yes, it is.

No, it isn't.

 

They do know that her predecessors have done nothing for TR.

Then they know nothing.

They know that Andor and its rulers doesn't care for TR. That is a good deal.

 

William's England=Feudal monarchy. Andor=Feudal monarchy, Elayne's Andor is beginning the transition into an absolute monarchy (Elayne has made the decision to expand the Queen's Guard into a standing army, a move which has historically concentrated power in the hands of the monarch, and thus paved the way for the centralised control of an absolute monarchy, rather than the more devolved power of a feudal state). Even then, "feudal" or "absolute" monarchies are not monolithic states, but are capable of appearing in many forms - some of Andor's Queen's would have had near absolute power, while others would have been reliant on the power of the Great Houses that supported them. So just because it's still a monarchy, doesn't mean the government hasn't changed at all in a millennium.

I don't think TR has had a lord before Perrin. So for TR it has always been absolute monarchy. They have no reason to expect Elayne to be different.

I have already explained why TR don't need Elaynes' help in TG

And after?

Why would they need Elayne after. By then Perrin will have resources to overcome any problem.

TR is in a far better state than most other places. The new arrivals fought the Shaido for Perrin. They will fight Elayne if he asks.

They will fight and some of them will die. Knowing that, is the price worth paying? Will Perrin ask them to fight?

Whatever Perrin wants they will not ask him to kneel,, that's the point. And against the Shaido they fought even without Perrin asking. 

 

Both Perrin and Elayne will avoid a confrontation among the forces of light before TG.

Will they really?

Yes. It is more likely that they will.

No, it is more likely that they will have some sort of confrontation prior to TG. She needs her country united for TG. So she needs ot know where Perrin stands. She will not leave an enemy at her back if she can help it, but first she needs to find out if he is an enemy. Thus, confrontation.

There are other ways to know where Perrin stands.

Enemy at her back?! Do yo think Perrin is going to attack her when she off fighting trollocs!?!?

Because Nyn and Egwene are AS too. They won't like Elayne tryinng to kill their friends/relatives.

Politically, Nynaeve is an irrelevance. On the other hand, Egwene, as the Amyrlin is important. However, Elayne is the first AS monarch in 1,000 years. Which is more important? Perrin submitting, or the WT's power? Bearing in mind AS can't use the OP as a weapon, so it is unlikely to be a matter of raining down lightning, but the Amyrlin having words with Perrin and the Women's Circles? That sort of support could bring the TR under control very quickly. And this does assume Egwene will still be in charge at the end of the series. I have my doubts. She could easily die and still reunify the Tower for TG.

Letting TR go is in not going to affect Elaynes' standing as an AS monarch. She is going to be the Queen of Andor, and Cairhien. If anything letting TR go will lay foundations for strong relation with Saldaea and Ghealdan. White Tower will support that sort of thing.

I suppose Hardan  doesn't exactly compare with TR, at that. But a monarch claiming that TR is part of Andor sitting in her map room doesn't make it true, given that TR people doesn't even  know about that claim.

They will.

They are already alienated from Andor.

 

They are not squatters. TR people have living the region for 1000 years before Andor claimed it.

But then Andor did claim it. And they lived safely under Andor's wing for centuries. The place was a part of Andor. The Queen didn't cede it back to the people. Just because you were already a tenant when the landlord changed, doesn't mean you own the place now.

TR people can't be compared to tenants. The land has always been theirs. They had no lord who swore fealty to the Queen(at least, I don't remember anything to indicate that). Their relationship with the crown was "we pay, you provide security." Andor stopped its part so it ended.

She is an AS who won't use  one power as a weapon.

She might not need to.

Without that she and Perrin are on even ground.

The Asha'man that Taim recruited from TR

Are safe at the BT, and won't be swanning off back home.

Their families and friends are not safe.

Not unless they fancy seeing their heads adorn the Traitors' Tree.

Armed confrontation(if it happens) will only happen after TG. By then there maynot be a traitors tree.

So Faile thinks it reasonable? Meaning she (and thus Saldaea) might not support him? Perrin and the TR stand alone. Well, maybe she can talk him round.

Min saw the Broken crown on Perrins' head. Faile being Saldaean has her primary loyalty to her husband. She will do anything if he raises his voice.

 

Actions are morally binding.

Morals are not laws. Legally, TR is part of Andor.

Laws which TR folk doesn't care about.

In an agrarian society the relation b/w ruler and people would something like, the people pay taxes, ruler protects them  from danger, does some public  work and so on. In the case of  TR,the ruler has failed on all fronts. How can u fault TR ppl?!?

That's how. Both sides failed.

TR people continued to pay their taxes for a generation after Queens' gaurds disappeared. So Andoran throne failed them first. 

Yes. There will be enough time, after TG.

It will need to be addressed before that.

TG is the more urgent problem.

When there is time, yes. A spat b/w Elayne and Perrin is not particularly desirable at this point. If they negotiate now, it is possible that there will be one.

If they don't negotiate now, they will have to do so later, with risk of a spat still existing. And less reason to pull back from armed conflict. After all, pre-TG both sides know that it's coming and soldiers are needed.

Their might be negotiations before TG, at best. But any armed confrontation will take place after TG.

 

[Mr Ares]

currently Elayne will be trying to figure out how to get the BT off andorian soil without bloodshed,

Militarily, it's a non-issue. Either they come to a peaceful solution, or they call in the WT to deal with the Black. Either way, Elayne can't do much about it beyond sending someone to talk to them.

 

The TR's would really benefit from splitting becuase merchants would automatically head there because they would assume that a new nation would need lots of goods

At possible risk of loss of trade with Andor? If they cannot pay?

 

They will not kneel before Elayne

Correct, Perrin will. They have already knelt.

 

If it comes to war Perrin will have Saldaea and Ghealdan supporting him.

Neither is set in stone. Faile will be Queen of Saldaea, so Perrin cannot act unilaterally, and she might think it sets a bad precedent, and if Perrin keeps a hold of Ghealdan after TG, he still might not feel comfortable using it to pursue a private war, and before TG he wouldn't want to waste the soldiers.

 

(to whom he feels no loyalty).

Why would he feel no loyalty? It's not been generations since they last saw a QG by this point, after all.

 

In some ways yes. But all in all they TR folk have done much more.

All in all, 5 people have done more than just one, yes. The people of the TR don't deserve credit for that, especially as they didn't do it, people who no longer call the TR home did, and the TR raised them unknowingly - they couldn't know Rand was the DR, nor that he, Perrin and Mat would be made ta'veren, nor that Ny and Eg could channel.

 

They haven't paid anything recently because there have been no guardsmen recently.

They can be protected without a QG present.

And did Andors' so called protection help them against trollocs or whitecloaks?

Except for two recent incidents, both long after they stopped paying taxes, yes.

 

If there is war, the end result will be unpredictable.

Slaughter is a pretty predictable part of war.

And if Faile intended to persuade him she would have already done so.

She has had no reason to yet.

It isn't her land. TR ppl lived there before Andor.

Irrelevant. It became part of Andor, so it is Andor's land, thus the Queen's land. They are her subjects. They do not own the land. They just live there.

 

Morgase would have kept them there even if it was to prevent others from sending their armies.

She has no reason to keep them there, nor would it prevent other countries sending their armies. You understand nothing of tactics or strategy.

 

Any one send to protect will stay for at least a few months to make sure trollocs don't come back. That would be long enough for the trollocs to return.

A few months pass, the AS leave. Whitecloaks come, Slayer brngs the Trollocs to hunt down Fain.

 

TR is not part of her country anymore.

Yes, it is.

No, it isn't.

Yes, it is.

No, it isn't.

Yes, it is.

 

They know that Andor and its rulers doesn't care for TR.

Then they know nothing.

 

I don't think TR has had a lord before Perrin.

Irrelevant, even if true.

So for TR it has always been absolute monarchy.

False. Still feudal.

They have no reason to expect Elayne to be different.

They know nothing of her. They have no reason to expect her to be anything. They operate from a postition of ignorance.

 

Why would they need Elayne after. By then Perrin will have resources to overcome any problem.

Hardly.

 

Whatever Perrin wants they will not ask him to kneel

Irrelevant. Whether or not he will do so has nothing to do with their asking. Is he willing to squander their lives for no reason other than his own ego? Doesn't sound like Perrin.

 

There are other ways to know where Perrin stands.

Such as?

Enemy at her back?! Do yo think Perrin is going to attack her when she off fighting trollocs!?!?

Wrong question. Does she think Perrin will attack. And she doesn't know. So she needs to find out where he stands. Thus, confront him.If he is a loyal Andoran, he will kneel, and be made Lord of the TR. If he isn't, he is a rebel, and she will deal with him as soon as she is able.

 

Letting TR go is in not going to affect Elaynes' standing as an AS monarch.

Forcing her to abandon them will not bind her closer to the Tower. Supporting her will. Politics. You know nothing of that, either.

She is going to be the Queen of Andor, and Cairhien.

Exactly, a powerful woman. One you want on your side. If a few stiff-necked farmers have their noses put out of joint at having to raise the White Lion in order to get heron side, it's a small price to pay.

If anything letting TR go will lay foundations for strong relation with Saldaea and Ghealdan.

No, it won't. Why should Ghealdan or Saldaea care? In fact, granting it the right to secede grants similar rights elsewhere, to people who haven't seen the taxman in a while. Which other countries have similar problems? Saldaea did, until recently. So the WT supports the rights of those Saldaean's to secede. Opens a can of worms.

 

They are already alienated from Andor.

That can be rectified.

 

The land has always been theirs.

It passed into Hawkwin's empire, then Andor, 1,000 years ago. It hasn't been theirs in a long time.

Their relationship with the crown was "we pay, you provide security." Andor stopped its part so it ended.

When did they lack security? Only in the series. Payment ended generations ago. Thus, they failed.

 

Without that she and Perrin are on even ground.

More uses for the OP than a weapon.

 

Their families and friends are not safe.

Doesn't matter. Nothing they do.

 

Armed confrontation(if it happens) will only happen after TG.

Nothing to indicate that.

By then there maynot be a traitors tree.

By then, the people who might object might all be dead.

 

Min saw the Broken crown on Perrins' head.

Co-ruler.

Faile being Saldaean has her primary loyalty to her husband.

Faile, being Queen, has a primary loyalty to her country.

She will do anything if he raises his voice.

Not true of any Saldaean woman we have seen. They will be co-rulers, so he will not be able to act unilaterally. And she knows how to get around him, and she doesn't support this. She will argue him round.

 

Laws which TR folk doesn't care about.

They will.

 

TR people continued to pay their taxes for a generation after Queens' gaurds disappeared. So Andoran throne failed them first.

They were still protected. TR failed first.

 

TG is the more urgent problem.

She must address the Perrin problem before she can address the TG problem. TG is bigger, but this must be dealt with first.

 

Their might be negotiations before TG, at best.

Problem solved.

But any armed confrontation will take place after TG.

Not necessarily.

[Durinax]

uh Mr Ares, Andor failed in services first, they have done no projects in the area, collected no taxes, exerted no presence, and you cant argue that the TR could have sent someone with a lot of money all the way to Caemlyn or some such because thats impractical and highly dangerous

[Mr Ares]

Andor failed in services first

Even if that were true, it's still not important, as Faile has shown that even if the rulers turn their backs on a region for generations, the land is still theirs when they turn back.

[mb]

Here is another from tSR

Chapter 42 A Missing Leaf

"I wonder what Queen Morgase will think of that," Faile said. "This is part of Andor. Queens seldomlike strange banners being raised in their realms."

"That's nothing but lines on a map," Perrin told her. It was good to be still; the throbbing from thearrowhead seemed to have abated, somewhat. "I did not even know we were supposed to be part of Andor until I went to Caemlyn. I doubt many people here do."

"Rulers have a tendency to believe maps, Perrin." There was no doubt of the dryness in Faile's tone."When I was a child, there were parts of Saldaea that had not seen a taxman in five generations. Once Father could turn his attention from the Blight for a time, Tenobia made sure they knew who their queen was."

"This is the Two Rivers," he said, grinning, "not Saldaea."

This clearly means that Perrin doesn't consider TR part of Andor. The other quote proves that he hasn't changed his opinion since. There have been many occasions in which other TR folk voiced the same opinion.

I do not see Perrin considering Two Rivers not part of Andor in that either.  It more likely expresses a wish for Two Rivers to not become part of Saldaea.

 

A number of closer places might have had enough soldiers.

Can you name one such place.

Several::

-Ghealdan

-Baerlon

-home of some Andor Seat

 

Nowhere in this does he acknowledge TR part of Andor.

But he does not deny it either.

 

Actions are morally binding.

Morality does not fulfill a legal secession.  Following the nation's laws would.

 

Maybe the trip was becoming unsafe and/or expensive.

Nothing to indicate that.

We are not told what happened.  Nothing makes it impossible/improbable.

 

There would be enough time to solve this issue.

Yes. There will be enough time, after TG.

And it is generally best to deal with problems when they are small

When there is time, yes. A spat b/w Elayne and Perrin is not particularly desirable at this point. If they negotiate now, it is possible that there will be one. To avoid this, it is best for TR issue to wait till after TG. It is not like this issue will get worse with waiting.

I meant time enough before Tarmon Gaidon.

Getting worse with waiting is a possibility.

 

Since Slayer came to Two Rivers, the Dark One was probably involved in the situation.

One or more Forsaken and/or Darkfriend channelers might be sent next; or might have already been sent.

Elayne & her channelers would be the best candidate to deal with that

Slayer came to TR to kill Padan Fain. Shadow is no longer particularly interested in TR.

If the Shadow is not interested now, it might become interested sometime before Tarmon.  Since Two Rivers is the hometown of their main enemy/enemies, becoming interested is a possibility.

The longer Elayne hesitates, the more time there would be for the Shadow to step in and/or the more damage the Shadow could do there if (and/or when) it steps in.

 

[Manjunathan]

They will not kneel before Elayne

Correct, Perrin will. They have already knelt.

Before Perrin yes. Not Elayne. Perrin won't kneel either.

 

Neither is set in stone. Faile will be Queen of Saldaea, so Perrin cannot act unilaterally,

Then they will act together

and she might think it sets a bad precedent,

King of Saldaea kneeling before a foreign queen sets an even worse one.

and if Perrin keeps a hold of Ghealdan after TG, he still might not feel comfortable using it to pursue a private war,

He used them to rescue his wife. So he will use them again.

and before TG he wouldn't want to waste the soldiers.

Neither will Elayne. So, no armed conflict between TG.

 

(to whom he feels no loyalty).

Why would he feel no loyalty? It's not been generations since they last saw a QG by this point, after all.

At that point it has been a generation for which they have been paying taxes for nothing.

All in all, 5 people have done more than just one, yes.

Nynaeve have done more than Elayne. Rand has done more, Mat has done more, Perrin  has done more => all 5 have done more than Elayne (doesn't mean I dislike Elayne.)

 

The people of the TR don't deserve credit for that, especially as they didn't do it, people who no longer call the TR home did, and the TR raised them unknowingly - they couldn't know Rand was the DR, nor that he, Perrin and Mat would be made ta'veren, nor that Ny and Eg could channel.

TR deserves credit because these people are what they are because of how they were raised. All 5 of them regret that they had to prefer the world over TR. They may make amends after TG.

 

They haven't paid anything recently because there have been no guardsmen recently.

They can be protected without a QG present.

In which the Queen failed.

And did Andors' so called protection help them against trollocs or whitecloaks?

Except for two recent incidents, both long after they stopped paying taxes, yes.

Because no one bothered to come for TR. Trollocs and Whitecloaks bothered and they succeeded(in killing people).

 

If there is war, the end result will be unpredictable.

Slaughter is a pretty predictable part of war.

Slaughter on both sides.

And if Faile intended to persuade him she would have already done so.

She has had no reason to yet.

If Perrin stating that TR is not part of Andor isn't reason enough, than nothing is.

It isn't her land. TR ppl lived there before Andor.

Irrelevant.

Very relevant.

It became part of Andor, so it is Andor's land, thus the Queen's land. They are her subjects. They do not own the land. They just live there.

The Queen has done nothing to make the land hers.

She has no reason to keep them there, nor would it prevent other countries sending their armies.

If Morgase doesn't care for trolloc attack, then others will.If she cares enough others won't bother.

 

A few months pass, the AS leave. Whitecloaks come, Slayer brngs the Trollocs to hunt down Fain.

A few months pass, whitecloaks come, slayer brings trollocs, AS present to face them.

 

TR is not part of her country anymore.

Yes, it is.

No, it isn't.

Yes, it is.

No, it isn't.

Yes, it is.

No, it isn't.

 

They know that Andor and its rulers doesn't care for TR.

Then they know nothing.

The know enough.

 

I don't think TR has had a lord before Perrin.

Irrelevant, even if true.

So for TR it has always been absolute monarchy.

False. Still feudal.

Feudalism is a decentralized sociopolitical structure in which a monarchy attempts to control the lands of the realm through reciprocal agreements with regional leaders.

No regional leader. So not feudal.

They have no reason to expect Elayne to be different.

They know nothing of her. They have no reason to expect her to be anything. They operate from a postition of ignorance.

They know Perrin is good lord. Will chose him over her any day.

 

Why would they need Elayne after. By then Perrin will have resources to overcome any problem.

Hardly.

He will have as much resorces as Elayne does.

Whether or not he will do so has nothing to do with their asking. Is he willing to squander their lives for no reason other than his own ego? Doesn't sound like Perrin.

Will Elayne claim a place alienated from her country because her mother failed in her duty, doesn't sound like Elayne to me. She will most likely give up the claim of TR when she finds out people have died because of her mothers failure.

 

There are other ways to know where Perrin stands.

Such as?

Exchanging messages thru trusted people.

Does she think Perrin will attack. And she doesn't know. So she needs to find out where he stands.

Exchanging messages thru trusted people.

Thus, confront him.If he is a loyal Andoran, he will kneel, and be made Lord of the TR.

He is already Lord of TR

If he isn't, he is a rebel, and she will deal with him as soon as she is able.

i.e after TG

Forcing her to abandon them will not bind her closer to the Tower. Supporting her will.

She is AS, and already bound close to the tower. And Elayne will refuse any help from the tower that makes her a WT puppet.

Helping Perrin will help WT increase its influence in two important countries where it has lost ground in recent times.

She is going to be the Queen of Andor, and Cairhien.

Exactly, a powerful woman. One you want on your side.

She is on WT side as much as she is ever going to be(AS and personal friend of Amyrlin).

No, it won't. Why should Ghealdan or Saldaea care?

Perrin is liege lord of Ghealdan, Will soon be king of Saldaea.

In fact, granting it the right to secede grants similar rights elsewhere, to people who haven't seen the taxman in a while.

No such place has had to face a trolloc attack. TR case is unique.

Which other countries have similar problems? Saldaea did, until recently. So the WT supports the rights of those Saldaean's to secede.

Saldaea being a borderland nation was unable to pay attention to those places because of the blight. These places would have been overrun by shadowspawn if not for the Saldaean army. So these places still owed the Saldaean throne.

No such excuse for Andoran throne.

They are already alienated from Andor.

That can be rectified.

Too late for that.

 

The land has always been theirs.

It passed into Hawkwin's empire, then Andor, 1,000 years ago. It hasn't been theirs in a long time.

Nothing Andor done has made the Queen own that land.

When did they lack security?

From about 7 generations ago.

Payment ended generations ago. Thus, they failed.

Payment ended a generation after security. So the throne failed first.

More uses for the OP than a weapon.

To which Perrin will have access too.

Their families and friends are not safe.

Doesn't matter. Nothing they do.

It matters to them.

 

Armed confrontation(if it happens) will only happen after TG.

Nothing to indicate that.

As you said both sides knows there will be need of soldiers for TG.

By then, the people who might object might all be dead.

Or the Ash'a'man will be given more of a freedom to choose their path.

 

Min saw the Broken crown on Perrins' head.

Co-ruler.

Thus equal power for both of them.

Faile being Saldaean has her primary loyalty to her husband.

Faile, being Queen, has a primary loyalty to her country.

Yeah. Perrin kneeling to another Queen will not go down well in her country.

Not true of any Saldaean woman we have seen.

True in every case.

They will be co-rulers, so he will not be able to act unilaterally. And she knows how to get around him, and she doesn't support this.She will argue him round.

She helped raise The red Eagle.

Laws which TR folk doesn't care about.

They will.

They won't

TR people continued to pay their taxes for a generation after Queens' gaurds disappeared. So Andoran throne failed them first.

They were still protected. TR failed first.

Not protcted. trollocs and whitecloaks. Andor failed first.

 

TG is the more urgent problem.

She must address the Perrin problem before she can address the TG problem. TG is bigger, but this must be dealt with first.

 

Their might be negotiations before TG, at best.

Problem solved.

But any armed confrontation will take place after TG.

Not necessarily.

You said both sides know there will be need of soldiers in TG. Hence, can't afford armed confrontation. This is what made me concede that point. Now don't retract.

[Manjunathan]

Here is another from tSR

Chapter 42 A Missing Leaf

"I wonder what Queen Morgase will think of that," Faile said. "This is part of Andor. Queens seldomlike strange banners being raised in their realms."

"That's nothing but lines on a map," Perrin told her. It was good to be still; the throbbing from thearrowhead seemed to have abated, somewhat. "I did not even know we were supposed to be part of Andor until I went to Caemlyn. I doubt many people here do."

"Rulers have a tendency to believe maps, Perrin." There was no doubt of the dryness in Faile's tone."When I was a child, there were parts of Saldaea that had not seen a taxman in five generations. Once Father could turn his attention from the Blight for a time, Tenobia made sure they knew who their queen was."

"This is the Two Rivers," he said, grinning, "not Saldaea."

This clearly means that Perrin doesn't consider TR part of Andor. The other quote proves that he hasn't changed his opinion since. There have been many occasions in which other TR folk voiced the same opinion.

I do not see Perrin considering Two Rivers not part of Andor in that either.  It more likely expresses a wish for Two Rivers to not become part of Saldaea.

Every one else sees differently.

 

A number of closer places might have had enough soldiers.

Can you name one such place.

Several::

-Ghealdan

-Baerlon

-home of some Andor Seat

Ghealdan-ravaged by war with Logain and Prophet.

Baerlon-not enough soldiers.

home of some Andor Seat-Little reason for them to help TR(according to Perrin. And he doesn't know anything at all about high seats).

Nowhere in this does he acknowledge TR part of Andor.

But he does not deny it either.

He denies it in the  above quote.

 

Actions are morally binding.

Morality does not fulfill a legal secession.  Following the nation's laws would.

Laws which TR doesn't care about.

 

Maybe the trip was becoming unsafe and/or expensive.

Nothing to indicate that.

We are not told what happened.  Nothing makes it impossible/improbable.

If wool merchants can come tax collectors can also come.

 

There would be enough time to solve this issue.

Yes. There will be enough time, after TG.

And it is generally best to deal with problems when they are small

When there is time, yes. A spat b/w Elayne and Perrin is not particularly desirable at this point. If they negotiate now, it is possible that there will be one. To avoid this, it is best for TR issue to wait till after TG. It is not like this issue will get worse with waiting.

I meant time enough before Tarmon Gaidon.

Getting worse with waiting is a possibility.

How can it get any  worse?

 

Since Slayer came to Two Rivers, the Dark One was probably involved in the situation.

One or more Forsaken and/or Darkfriend channelers might be sent next; or might have already been sent.

Elayne & her channelers would be the best candidate to deal with that

Slayer came to TR to kill Padan Fain. Shadow is no longer particularly interested in TR.

If the Shadow is not interested now, it might become interested sometime before Tarmon.  Since Two Rivers is the hometown of their main enemy/enemies, becoming interested is a possibility.

A negligibly small possibility.

 

 

PS:I'll be busy until 1st week of next month. Hence may not be able to post as regularly as I'd like to. Excuse.

[WWWwombat]

There's no way in the Pit of Doom that it comes down to an armed conflict, although Perrin having holdings in what is technically part of Andor does remind me a bit of the prelude to Hundred Years War.  But honestly, I don't see two people so close to Rand making war on each other, especially with TG coming.

[Seaine Sedai]

For the most part, I'm with Ares on this whole thread.  A lot of people don't seem to understand how feudal systems work; what the political, social, and economic ramifications would be if Elayne did not find SOME way to make sure Perrin doesn't just bite off a huge chunk of her country and take it with him; or what it actually means to be a sovereign ruler of a land.

 

Now, while all the people that might get involved in this hypothetical upheaval have shown that they can be narrow-minded, prideful, and stubborn (specifically Elayne and Perrin, but you also have throw Rand and Faile in there since they are so heavily involved in one or both of the other two, not to mention Morgase who will probably be integral to this whole thing) NONE of these people are stupid when it comes to things like war and conflict.

 

1--I don't see why Perrin wouldn't kneel to Elayne.  His act of kneeling doesn't lose him anything, and probably gains him a powerful ally.  This doesn't make him look weak in front of TR people.  He has shown himself to be worthy of their respect and they would probably more likely just scratch their heads and go "gee, we were part of a Queen's realm?  Fancy that!"  These men might stand up and fight when they are attacked, but a pretty woman coming along and saying "Hey guys, I realize you might not know this because we haven't collected taxes from you in a long time or provided guards, but you're actually considered part of the Queendom of Andor..." and as long as somewhere in there was "You can go about your business and Perrin's a great choice for being your Lord in this land..." I really don't see the TR people putting up a fuss about it.  Faile was going to impose taxes on the people anyway, and as long she didn't bitch about Elayne claiming what is rightfully hers (which even in Faile I don't see happening, she knows what all is expected of a Queen even if she's a few steps away from a throne herself), the people probably would see some pretty woman was going to collect tax money from them no matter what.  That is, if Elayne even bothered to try to collect taxes for herself rather than just say "Acknowledge me Queen and nothing at all has to change, pay taxes to your local lord since I trust him to do what needs doing here in the realm anyway with the taxes" 

 

2--Ghealdan wouldn't hold much sway either way in any of this, since it's been ravaged so badly by Masema's followers and god know what else.  Alliandre is probably going to need all the help she can get to pull that country back together, so she won't be all that helpful in providing aid in the cause for Perrin if he decides to openly rebel against Elayne.  BIG IF there.

 

3--Even if the TR people would want an open rebellion against Elayne, I highly doubt Perrin would do it as their figurehead.  I'd see him stepping down and telling them to name someone else to lead them if it came to that.  And if that's the case, then he was never really Lord anyway if his own people won't listen to him.  But the TR people have shown themselves to be very loyal to him, so if he can reasonably sort things out with Elayne then there's no need for hostility against her.  Perrin will be so tired of all the fighting by the time it might come up he'd probably be extremely open to reasonable negotiations with Elayne, and she probably would be too by that point.

 

4--Someone on this thread earlier mentioned something about Faile and Perrin probably having children and will need to raise them.  Not a valid point at all.  Nobles don't raise their own children--children are reared by nurses and governesses.  Nobles have too much business to attend to to raise their own children, and so they spend time as they can with the kids but for the most part don't see them until the children are grown enough to accompany the parents and begin learning how to rule.

 

5--I definitely cannot see Egwene standing aside for any of this.  Elayne is her AS sister, and the TR is her original homeland.  Even though she wouldn't be able to deal with this herself, she'd probably send a whole group of Grey sisters there to quell any problems and work things out peacefully so that Elayne has Andor and Perrin is comfortable and satisfied with what he has.  If anyone thinks the WT is not going to get involved when whole borders of countries are going to be in dispute, then they are just flat out wrong.

 

All of these people might be touchy in personal matters (boy howdy is THAT an understatement) but none of them have been unreasonable when it comes to matters of politics.  They've all shown themselves, overall, to be fair and just rulers.  I don't think it would come to a war simply because the people leading would find it unnecessary and wasteful.

[mb]

Maybe the trip was becoming unsafe and/or expensive.

Nothing to indicate that.

We are not told what happened.  Nothing makes it impossible/improbable.

If wool merchants can come tax collectors can also come.

Able to come now, but we do not know about at the time.

 

How can it get any  worse?

Several possibilities:

-Two Rivers folk getting more suspicious about outsiders.

-Some other Darkfriend coming to ruin the place.

-A number of Two Rivers folk converting to the Shadow.

 

Slayer came to TR to kill Padan Fain. Shadow is no longer particularly interested in TR.

There seems a slight chance of the order to kill Fain being effect at the time.

Several reasons:

-From Fain's POV directly after the events, Isam sent the Trollocs.  There probably was plenty of opportunities for Isam to do the task.

-Moridin mentions the order in Winter's Heart, so either he gave the order or he was able to force the info from the one that did give the order.  Ishamael died in Dragon Reborn and Moridin appeared in Crown of Swords; Moghedien & Lanfear were doing other tasks during most of Shadow Rising (Moghedien searching for the sad bracelets, Lanfear tracking Rand).

-Rahvin/Asmodean/Sammael, slight chance for the info getting to Moridin from them.

-Graendal/Demandred/Mesaana/Semirhage, very little Moridin could do to force the info from them.

-Aginor/Balthamel were dead during the book.

 

A negligibly small possibility.

I think the Shadow getting interested again is probable.

Some reasons:

-Rahvin did not allow Morgase to deal with the situation when she complained to him about it.

-Slayer (both halves) probably had plenty of opportunities to kill Fain, but he did not; so Slayer probably had different orders at the time.

-At least Arangar having opportunity to go to Two Rivers.

 

Every one else sees differently.

You cannot be certain of that.  I have not seen any other reader express their opinion about the passage.

Also, a majority can be wrong.  Only the author knows the intended interpretation.

 

He denies it in the  above quote.

Not in my interpretation.  I think that 'not being used to their rule' is Perrin's view then also.

 

Laws which TR doesn't care about.

For anything to be legal, the respective laws need to be followed regardless of whether the residents care about the laws or not.

 

[benr]

Elayne visited houses that she thought could be counted on to provide support for her after she wne the thrown in CRoT.  She gathered some armsmen, but it was mostly for show, to establish herself with the people.  There is no evidence that she ever considered going to the TR, because a) there was no house there to court for support, and b) she knew that there would be scant support for her.  However, if she had visited she might have been able to raise troops (at least in her opinion), as they would not have been on their way to Caemlyn already (as the able-bodied armsmen from the houses she visited already were - making them totally unavailable for her).  She either didn't think they would be needed, or didn't think she could convince them.  Recognizing Perrin as Lord of the Two Rivers; creating another house, in effect, would solidify her position of strength.  War or conflict with the TR would weaken her.  Perrin isn't interested in harming Elayne.  An agreement will be worked out; it is advantageous to all of our heroes.

[Ashaman Kovan]

-Slayer (both halves) probably had plenty of opportunities to kill Fain, but he did not; so Slayer probably had different orders at the time.

 

And how do you know that? That he had "Plenty of opportunities"?

Fain isn't your typical darkfriend. He has power and abilities of his own unique to him. Even for Slayer it wouldn't be an easy job. Rand couldn't even kill Fain, so what makes you think he should have been easy meat for Slayer?

[wavemistresstrammell]

-Slayer (both halves) probably had plenty of opportunities to kill Fain, but he did not; so Slayer probably had different orders at the time.

 

And how do you know that? That he had "Plenty of opportunities"?

Fain isn't your typical darkfriend. He has power and abilities of his own unique to him. Even for Slayer it wouldn't be an easy job. Rand couldn't even kill Fain, so what makes you think he should have been easy meat for Slayer?

 

Slayer was sent there to kill Fain I thought... I'll go try to look it up.. TSR right?

[Ashaman Kovan]

-Slayer (both halves) probably had plenty of opportunities to kill Fain, but he did not; so Slayer probably had different orders at the time.

 

And how do you know that? That he had "Plenty of opportunities"?

Fain isn't your typical darkfriend. He has power and abilities of his own unique to him. Even for Slayer it wouldn't be an easy job. Rand couldn't even kill Fain, so what makes you think he should have been easy meat for Slayer?

 

Slayer was sent there to kill Fain I thought... I'll go try to look it up.. TSR right?

 

He was, yes.

[wavemistresstrammell]

Hard to believe I just re-read the whole series huh? I keep forgetting everything I just read haha... I guess it's my fault for reading all of Brandon Sanderson's books before TGS haha.

[Mr Ares]

Before Perrin yes. Not Elayne.

They've knelt already, so further kneeling is unnecassary. Only Perrin needs to, and it is the easiest solution. He loses nothing by it, so there's no reason not to.

 

Then they will act together

But not to help the TR secede.

 

King of Saldaea kneeling before a foreign queen sets an even worse one.

Not in the slightest. His would be kneeling in his capacity as a vassal of the Andoran Queen.

 

He used them to rescue his wife.

No other way to get her back. Also, needed to disperse the Shaido threat. Neither is true in this case.

 

Neither will Elayne.

Unless she has a compelling reason to.

 

At that point it has been a generation for which they have been paying taxes for nothing.

Not true in the slightest. Also, they might want their Queen back.

 

Nynaeve have done more than Elayne.

Debatable. Elayne's a'dam made prolonged covert interrogation of Moghedien a possibility, thus leading to numerous discoveries - including cuendillar and femal Traveling (both discovered by Egwene using information from Moggy). Even for the others there is a measure of debate.

 

TR deserves credit

No.

 

In which the Queen failed.

Generations after they stopped payinng for protection. Or anything.

Because no one bothered to come for TR.

Not long after they stopped paying taxes, no. And Rahvin was running the country.

 

Slaughter on both sides.

So what?

 

If Perrin stating that TR is not part of Andor isn't reason enough, than nothing is.

Him provoking a war with Andor sounds like good reason. Him threatening the security of Saldaea is also reason. She has had no reason to yet.

Very relevant.

Not in the slightest.

 

The Queen has done nothing to make the land hers.

Not recently. But over 1,000 years of Andoran Queenship is quite a claim. The land is hers. They just live there.

 

If Morgase doesn't care for trolloc attack, then others will.

Others can do nothing without provoking a war with Andor.

 

A few months pass, whitecloaks come, slayer brings trollocs, AS present to face them.

Unless they've given up and gone home. Or perhaps Fain tries a different tack and corrupts a bunch of AS.

 

TR is not part of her country anymore.

Yes, it is.

No, it isn't.

Yes, it is.

No, it isn't.

Yes, it is.

No, it isn't.

Yes, it is.

 

The know enough.

Nothing is not enough.

 

No regional leader.

Not provable, and irrelevant. Even in feudal monarchies, land can be sworn directly to the monarch, and absolute monarchies still have lords beneath them, they are just relatively powerless. So you know nothing of history either.

 

They know Perrin is good lord. Will chose him over her any day.

It's not either/or. The chose him, he chooses her.

 

He will have as much resorces as Elayne does.

No, he won't. He will have the TR. She will have Andor. Furthermore, he will have no reason to go to war.

 

Will Elayne claim a place alienated from her country because her mother failed in her duty, doesn't sound like Elayne to me.

Elayne who was so proud of her mother's refusal to give up any Andoran territory, who recognises the importance of Andor united for TG? Sounds exaclty like her.

She will most likely give up the claim of TR when she finds out people have died because of her mothers failure.

No chance in hell. She'll just say she'll do better by her people than her mother did. Add Elayne to the list of things you don't understand. And Perrin.

 

Exchanging messages thru trusted people.

Not good enough.

 

He is already Lord of TR

De facto, yes. De jure, no. He has no legal standing.

i.e after TG

If not before.

 

She is AS, and already bound close to the tower.

But if the WT starts meddling and costs her parts of her country. That might drive a wedge between them. On the other hand, have a word with Perrin, or with the Women's Circles, and suddenly a peaceful solution is reached.

And Elayne will refuse any help from the tower that makes her a WT puppet.

Note the last part of the sentence.

Helping Perrin

will drive a wedge between the Tower and any country with regions who have regions similarly out of the loop.

 

She is on WT side as much as she is ever going to be

And you want to keep her there, not drive her away.

Perrin is liege lord of Ghealdan, Will soon be king of Saldaea.

Co-ruler of Saldaea, with no guarantee his rulership of Ghealdan would last. This doesn't help the WT. Nor does alienating Saldaea's other ruler, who has said turning your back on a region for generations isn't enough to have it cease to be yours.

 

No such place has had to face a trolloc attack.

Unporven, and irrelevant.

 

Saldaea being a borderland nation was unable to pay attention to those places because of the blight.

Irrelevant. Andor couldn't spare the resources either, but when it can, it will.

Too late for that.

No.

 

Nothing Andor done has made the Queen own that land.

Not even have it as part of her country, its people as her citizens, protect them, they pay her taxes, for a milennium? You're talknig complete crap.

 

From about 7 generations ago.

Prove it.

 

Payment ended a generation after security.

Parades of QG ended. It has not been shown that security did.

To which Perrin will have access too.

Maybe, maybe not.

It matters to them.

Nothing they can do.

 

As you said both sides knows there will be need of soldiers for TG.

Which indicates that both sides would prefer any armed conflict to wait, not thta it will. In fact, neither wants a war if it can be avoided. If it is to come, it could come before.

 

Or the Ash'a'man will be given more of a freedom to choose their path.

And still not care enough to come home.

 

Thus equal power for both of them.

So Perrin doesn't have the power for unilateral action, as I said. So Saldaea only helps if Faile allows it, and she is unlikely to given her statements previously, as quoted in the thread.

 

Yeah. Perrin kneeling to another Queen will not go down well in her country.

Why not? He is not saying Saldaea is subject to Elayne, he is saying the Lord of the TR is subject to the Queen of Andor. Much as the King of England was his own man, but the Duke of Normandy was sworn to the King of France.

 

True in every case.

Not in the slightest.

She helped raise The red Eagle.

Irrelevant.

 

They won't

They will if they are punished for breaking them.

trollocs and whitecloaks. Andor failed first.

Trollocs and Whitecloaks came later. So you have no justification for that.

 

You said both sides know there will be need of soldiers in TG.

Yes, and I stand by that.

Hence, can't afford armed confrontation.

They would prefer to avoid - they still would after, but have more pressing reason to avoid it before. Doesn't mean they will.

 

Now,,as it is, there is no good reason for Perrin to refuse to kneel to Elayne - no reason at all, beyond stubbornness. It might be handled badly, and lead to friction, but if it's handled well, they can solve things with no need for bloodshed. Resulting in TR as a part of Andor. Not a huge chunk of Andor carved away, nor TR as it's own country. Simply, Perrin is Lord of the TR, under Elayne.

[mb]

-Slayer (both halves) probably had plenty of opportunities to kill Fain, but he did not; so Slayer probably had different orders at the time.

And how do you know that? That he had "Plenty of opportunities"?

Fain isn't your typical darkfriend. He has power and abilities of his own unique to him. Even for Slayer it wouldn't be an easy job. Rand couldn't even kill Fain, so what makes you think he should have been easy meat for Slayer?

I said 'probably had', which tells I was not entirely sure.

Like I mentioned earlier in the post, Isam sent the trollocs.  During any of the times Fain requested it, Fain would have been unaware of an attack.  And Fain might need to sleep sometime; which would have been a time for either half to step in & out of Telaranrhiod.

 

During each of Fain's attacks on Rand, Fain had another person with him.  If there could be a one-on-one of Rand with Fain in a situation where Rand could channel, Rand might be able to kill Fain.

 

[Ashaman Kovan]

-Slayer (both halves) probably had plenty of opportunities to kill Fain, but he did not; so Slayer probably had different orders at the time.

And how do you know that? That he had "Plenty of opportunities"?

Fain isn't your typical darkfriend. He has power and abilities of his own unique to him. Even for Slayer it wouldn't be an easy job. Rand couldn't even kill Fain, so what makes you think he should have been easy meat for Slayer?

I said 'probably had', which tells I was not entirely sure.

Like I mentioned earlier in the post, Isam sent the trollocs.  During any of the times Fain requested it, Fain would have been unaware of an attack.  And Fain might need to sleep sometime; which would have been a time for either half to step in & out of Telaranrhiod.

 

During each of Fain's attacks on Rand, Fain had another person with him.  If there could be a one-on-one of Rand with Fain in a situation where Rand could channel, Rand might be able to kill Fain.

 

 

It seems like you're forgetting that we don't know everything that Fain is capable of.

 

What exactly do you mean by this?

 

"During any of the times Fain requested it, Fain would have been unaware of an attack"

 

We know for a fact that Slayer had orders to kill Fain. If he, like you say, "probably" had plenty of opportunities then what possible reason could he have for not fulfilling his contract?

 

Other than that maybe Fain isn't quite as easy a target as you seem to, for whatever reason, think.